Fancy Gurus Please!

[Cehrabehra]

I''ve been loving this forum and reading a ton and I feel like I could make a decent decision on a round, but I just can''t find the passion for rounds that some others here have... they''re gorgeous and easy to grade, but I really would prefer an oval or long cushion. I think LOL I really want a quality cut, I understand how important that is... but when I look at fancies I feel like I''ve gone back 10 years or more in cut savvy. I''ve read everything on the main sites about fancies, and there really isn''t a whole lot out there.

So... of the main vendors, who is THE go-to guy for fancies?

And WHEN are they going to set exacting standards for fancy cuts?? Is there even a plan to?

And I could be totally wrong here, but wouldn''t changing the standard cuts for long stones (ovals etc) like adding side facets or something, help to alleviate ''bow tie''?

Are there cutting edge, experimental type fancy cutters out there? Or are those stones astronomical in price?

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 7/7/2006 2:16:10 PM
Author:Cehrabehra
who is THE go-to guy for fancies?

From the transactions I''ve lived vicariously through here on Pscope: Mark T. of Engagementringsdirect. He works right in NYC''s diamond district - so has seemingly more access to stones at his fingertips than other vendors who have to "call in" stones to assess them.

Ya might wait for a long time for a surefire cure to the dreaded "bow-tie" ... they haven''t found it so far!

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 7/7/2006 3:20:12 PM
Author: decodelighted

Date: 7/7/2006 2:16:10 PM
Author:Cehrabehra
who is THE go-to guy for fancies?

From the transactions I''ve lived vicariously through here on Pscope: Mark T. of Engagementringsdirect. He works right in NYC''s diamond district - so has seemingly more access to stones at his fingertips than other vendors who have to ''call in'' stones to assess them.

Ya might wait for a long time for a surefire cure to the dreaded ''bow-tie'' ... they haven''t found it so far!

Thanks for the response, I wasn''t sure I''d get one after a while LOL Rounds and Asschers sure do have the expert opinions... it''s a shame the other cuts aren''t better represented here

I can live with bow tie I suppose... It isn''t my main focus, just something I''m curious about... would love to know what sorts of computer sim experiments they''ve run to try optimizing... it seems like there is just GADS of info on rounds, sooooo much, and even quite a bit on asschers.

That''s the first I''ve heard of your recommendation, but I''ll look into it, thanks

 

[Gypsy]

Mark T is definitely the go to guy for cushions and ovals tell him you want minimal bowtie... but actually GOG has an oval right now that doesn''t look like it has much of a bowtie. I would trust Mark though to find you the right cushion or oval.

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/1942/

 

[Cehrabehra]

Thanks for the link Gypsy, yeah it doesn''t have strong bowtie, but when I look at that diamx I think why don''t I just get a round ::sigh::

I feel like I need to really TALK to someone about this but since I''m still sorta far out from a choice I don''t know if it''s too early to start bugging vendors (aka forming a relationship with them lol).

 

[Gypsy]

Well.

Start talking lol. I''m having issues with my diamond so I have a feeling I can relate.

 

[Rhino]

Hi Cehebra,

While reflector images do tell a bit about the stones ability to reflect light, there is an interplay of leakage/light return which contributes to the element of dynamic contrast which can really grab a persons eye in a manner that a reflector image can''t always communicate effectively.

I''ve personally seen many stones in fancy shapes that have had reflector images that didn''t appear too exciting but real world observation suggested otherwise. This is commonly the case with ovals, cushions, and radiant cuts. People who are attracted to this flavor of cutting style should not focus too hard on reflector images but better to consult them than nothing.

I take sort of a backwards approach with regards to fancies such as these.

First we''ll determine a clients visual preference by showing them various flavors. Then we''ll note the type of reflector image it has and locate stones with that reflector image.

In these cases the reflector isn''t used to dictate what a person should or should not like but it becomes more of a tool for identification of client preferences. Some of the most beautiful ovals we''ve seen have not had what some would consider *stellar* reflector images.

If you''re tossed between round H&A stones vs ovals or cushions best bet is to go view some side by side and see where your preference really lies.

If you don''t mind me asking, what is the most common lighting environment you find yourself in?

Kind regards,

 

[diagem]

Date: 7/7/2006 2:16:10 PM
Author:Cehrabehra
I''ve been loving this forum and reading a ton and I feel like I could make a decent decision on a round, but I just can''t find the passion for rounds that some others here have... they''re gorgeous and easy to grade, but I really would prefer an oval or long cushion. I think LOL I really want a quality cut, I understand how important that is... but when I look at fancies I feel like I''ve gone back 10 years or more in cut savvy. I''ve read everything on the main sites about fancies, and there really isn''t a whole lot out there.
In my opinion..., fancy shapes are far more interesting and intriguing..., both on the jewelry design posibilities and as a cutting art.

So... of the main vendors, who is THE go-to guy for fancies?

And WHEN are they going to set exacting standards for fancy cuts?? Is there even a plan to?
The day they will try to..., (and i imagine this day will come!!!) the fancy shaped diamonds will loose its uniqueness!!!! Unfortunatly i am not one who is looking forward to that "DAY"!!!

I dont believe its posible to "set exacting standards for fancy cuts".

And I could be totally wrong here, but wouldn''t changing the standard cuts for long stones (ovals etc) like adding side facets or something, help to alleviate ''bow tie''?
Strongly agreeing with you..., an expert Cushion cutter can adapt the bow-tie affect to complement the appearance of an elongated cushion....,

Are there cutting edge, experimental type fancy cutters out there? Or are those stones astronomical in price?
OH yea, but they are indeed a rare breed these days..., since most of the facy shaped cutters are to busy cutting quantities/ mass-production to meet demands...

But if you are patience..., and will do the right studying...., you will be able to educate yourself on this issue..., its even extreeml;y enjoyable...
ONE tip..., start windowshoping at these well established 100+ year old jewelry companies..., they wouldnt last that long unless they offered the right type of fancy-shaped diamonds.

good-luck, and dont be affraid to ask questions....

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 7/7/2006 4:34:05 PM
Author: Rhino
Hi Cehebra,

While reflector images do tell a bit about the stones ability to reflect light, there is an interplay of leakage/light return which contributes to the element of dynamic contrast which can really grab a persons eye in a manner that a reflector image can''t always communicate effectively.

I''ve personally seen many stones in fancy shapes that have had reflector images that didn''t appear too exciting but real world observation suggested otherwise. This is commonly the case with ovals, cushions, and radiant cuts. People who are attracted to this flavor of cutting style should not focus too hard on reflector images but better to consult them than nothing.

I take sort of a backwards approach with regards to fancies such as these.

First we''ll determine a clients visual preference by showing them various flavors. Then we''ll note the type of reflector image it has and locate stones with that reflector image.

In these cases the reflector isn''t used to dictate what a person should or should not like but it becomes more of a tool for identification of client preferences. Some of the most beautiful ovals we''ve seen have not had what some would consider *stellar* reflector images.

If you''re tossed between round H&A stones vs ovals or cushions best bet is to go view some side by side and see where your preference really lies.

If you don''t mind me asking, what is the most common lighting environment you find yourself in?

Kind regards,

Hi
Well, I''m a mom with a minivan and three active kids under 12 so my typical lighting environment is what, costco? LOL! Um, it''s all over... in my house mostly I suppose... but outside during the summers, inside various buildings during the school year.

I''d really rather not get a round, it just seems like such an easy solution to find a *great* stone because there is so much info out there. I''m really leaning more toward cushion because I do like the slightly squarer corners and I think that there might be more cutting in the center where a bow tie might be? Please correct me if I''m wrong...

Good info on the reflector images, but as you know they really are all I have to go on besides my own eyes and the eyes of the experts I consult.

I do appreciate your response... could you explain a little bit more about "flavors"? I have noticed that there is more than one typical cut for a cushion (but only one typical cut for an "oval") again... am I correct?

Thanks a bunch

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 7/7/2006 4:05:02 PM
Author: Gypsy
Well.

Start talking lol. I''m having issues with my diamond so I have a feeling I can relate.

Hi Gypsy

What issues are you having?

I''m trying to gather as much info as I can about cushion cuts because I really think I''m leaning that way, but want to know more about the options (since there is no standard) before I settle and really start my search. I know quite a bit about what I want now, but I feel like I can''t really say it until I''m sure on the cut. If I went with an asscher for some reason, my criteria would change.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 7/7/2006 5:11:05 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 7/7/2006 2:16:10 PM
Author:Cehrabehra
I''ve been loving this forum and reading a ton and I feel like I could make a decent decision on a round, but I just can''t find the passion for rounds that some others here have... they''re gorgeous and easy to grade, but I really would prefer an oval or long cushion. I think LOL I really want a quality cut, I understand how important that is... but when I look at fancies I feel like I''ve gone back 10 years or more in cut savvy. I''ve read everything on the main sites about fancies, and there really isn''t a whole lot out there.
In my opinion..., fancy shapes are far more interesting and intriguing..., both on the jewelry design posibilities and as a cutting art.

Excellent point! I agree. There''s something about rounds that bothers me... because they just go around in a circle... I like that but I think in the long run it would bore me.

So... of the main vendors, who is THE go-to guy for fancies?

And WHEN are they going to set exacting standards for fancy cuts?? Is there even a plan to?
The day they will try to..., (and i imagine this day will come!!!) the fancy shaped diamonds will loose its uniqueness!!!! Unfortunatly i am not one who is looking forward to that ''DAY''!!!

Interesting, I never would have thought that... but still, I think more good can be had with very well cut fancies, even if they are more popular. Rounds will still probably always rule, and Asscher fans aren''t likely to convert LOL

I dont believe its posible to ''set exacting standards for fancy cuts''.

I dunno, my husband has a degree in physics and he and I have been discussing some of this... Sure, every stone will be different, but you can still perfect the under side cutting to maximize a longer stone. I''m really hoping a cushion is the answer for me!

And I could be totally wrong here, but wouldn''t changing the standard cuts for long stones (ovals etc) like adding side facets or something, help to alleviate ''bow tie''?
Strongly agreeing with you..., an expert Cushion cutter can adapt the bow-tie affect to complement the appearance of an elongated cushion....,
That''s what I was hoping for! Thanks!!

Are there cutting edge, experimental type fancy cutters out there? Or are those stones astronomical in price?
OH yea, but they are indeed a rare breed these days..., since most of the facy shaped cutters are to busy cutting quantities/ mass-production to meet demands...

Any idea on whether they''re more expensive for being rare or cheaper for being unproven?

But if you are patience..., and will do the right studying...., you will be able to educate yourself on this issue..., its even extreeml;y enjoyable...
ONE tip..., start windowshoping at these well established 100+ year old jewelry companies..., they wouldnt last that long unless they offered the right type of fancy-shaped diamonds.

good-luck, and dont be affraid to ask questions....

Thanks... I''ll try to find someone nearby... I''m in the portland oregon area. I might just go into shane company and goof off for a while LOL!

First of all WHAT is that stone in your icon ring? That''s too cool!!

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 7/7/2006 3:20:12 PM
Author: decodelighted

Date: 7/7/2006 2:16:10 PM
Author:Cehrabehra
who is THE go-to guy for fancies?

From the transactions I''ve lived vicariously through here on Pscope: Mark T. of Engagementringsdirect. He works right in NYC''s diamond district - so has seemingly more access to stones at his fingertips than other vendors who have to ''call in'' stones to assess them.

Ya might wait for a long time for a surefire cure to the dreaded ''bow-tie'' ... they haven''t found it so far!

On reading this a second time... that''s good advice. I''d really love to talk to someone about cushions and it seems everyone is saying GO TO MARK lol Damn, I can''t believe monday is still two days away! lol! I''m dying here. I''ve got the bug LOL! And there are NO PICTURES of purty diamx or idealscopes of cushions out there that I can find... anyone got... *links*??

 

[Cehrabehra]

Okay, I take it back... You guys suck! LOL! This place is so addicting. Of course I''m kidding about the sucking part... you guys (I''d say rock... but..) are great

Gypsy - you''ve been great help, it might be fun to traverse this journey together What are you looking for exactly? Do you have an old thread about it?

General Fancy Guru Question:

http://www.gemappraisers.com/shapePickerNew.asp
Now, on this link above... if you click on the oval... is "bulge factor" a REAL consideration in choosing a cushion? Are there any (I''d say standards, but I know there aren''t any) so are there any... do they actually measure that? Is that on a report for a cushion? It seems like a rather important factor to me in choosing that cut.
My husband has a degree in physics and he''s taken an interest in this, mostly because I have been complaining about the lack of information out there on cushion cuts lol He''s hauling all of his old physics of light info out and drawing me pictures of what he thinks my ring should look like based on his kooky formulas ROFL!!! Oh well, at least he''s taking an interest, right? LOL I''m going to find a good cut, I will. Now I just have to find someone who''ll help me and help my husband understand the cut. I can''t wait to find out more about the different types as per: http://goodoldgold.com/4Cs/Shape/Cushion/ about halfway down the page. Also, I don''t want a culet. ::giggle:: "Pointed" is fine

 

[lizzyd]

Hi C,

Can I call yoiu C? I can''t spell your name without scrolling down to look at it again, and I''m trying to let my nails dry and drink wine (PUI''ing = posting under the influence) all at the same time without smudging.

Anywho, I went through a similar journey that you are going through (three boys under 7, minivan and all. You''re not from Boston are you?) . I wanted an oval, got frustrated with the bowties, fell in love with cushions (cause of Reena''s ring), but didn''t get too far on that search because of lack of info out there about good cut, and because I found out cushions face up so much smaller than the same weight rounds (also discovered along the way that I''m quite the size whore). Then saw "The Lovey". I ended my relationship with cushions and started dating a couple of nice asschers. Had a few called in. Even bought one and took it home to meet my mom. Again, the size thing. All along I had been learning about rounds. It seemed so easy. DH had told me in January I could go get pretty much what I wanted. It dragged on for months. I got frustrated and impatient. I gave in and got a round. A very very nice one, mind you. But it does go around in that perfect circle thing.

I''ve come to realize that this is a life long love affair with stones and pretty settings. I have started to branch out into colored wtones. I''m adding side stones to my diamond, I''m thinking about two or three other projects down the road. But the one that really intrigues me now is the Square Hearts and Arrows at GOG. Also, the radiant shape (a la SizeDoesMatter''s gorgeous halo).

Jeez, nothing like a thread jack. Sorry! I just wanted you to kinow that you are not alone, and I will be following your (and Gypsy''s) journies with great interest. Best of luck to both of you!!


Best,
LizzyD

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 7/8/2006 10:03:01 PM
Author: lizzyd
Hi C,

Can I call yoiu C? I can''t spell your name without scrolling down to look at it again, and I''m trying to let my nails dry and drink wine (PUI''ing = posting under the influence) all at the same time without smudging.

Oh Lizzy, thank you for this post! That was a lot of fun to read your journey And yeah, my name is Sara but shhh don''t tell. You can call me C anytime you like lol

Anywho, I went through a similar journey that you are going through (three boys under 7, minivan and all. You''re not from Boston are you?) . I wanted an oval, got frustrated with the bowties, fell in love with cushions (cause of Reena''s ring), but didn''t get too far on that search because of lack of info out there about good cut, and because I found out cushions face up so much smaller than the same weight rounds (also discovered along the way that I''m quite the size whore). Then saw ''The Lovey''. I ended my relationship with cushions and started dating a couple of nice asschers. Had a few called in. Even bought one and took it home to meet my mom. Again, the size thing. All along I had been learning about rounds. It seemed so easy. DH had told me in January I could go get pretty much what I wanted. It dragged on for months. I got frustrated and impatient. I gave in and got a round. A very very nice one, mind you. But it does go around in that perfect circle thing.

I''ve been waiting 15 years... I''m in no hurry. I''m going to find that perfect stone My husband is helping me design a ring. But I told him I won''t accept it until he gets down on one knee and professes his undying love for me... ::giggle::

I''ve come to realize that this is a life long love affair with stones and pretty settings. I have started to branch out into colored wtones. I''m adding side stones to my diamond, I''m thinking about two or three other projects down the road. But the one that really intrigues me now is the Square Hearts and Arrows at GOG. Also, the radiant shape (a la SizeDoesMatter''s gorgeous halo).

I can see how the addiction sets in - this place is truly amazing! I, however, am such a sentimentalist... this ring will forever be the way it is designed, so I''m going to do it right and take my time. I''m hoping with the new H&A square (::ahem:: termed a *cushion* did I hear that correct??) there is SOMETHING out there on the horizon that will lead me to the perfect longer cushion. I''m thinking 1-1.3 to 1-1.4, roughly. But yeah, those rounds sure are beautiful! Do you have pics of your ring? Feel free to jack the thread and brag about your rock for a bit

Jeez, nothing like a thread jack. Sorry! I just wanted you to kinow that you are not alone, and I will be following your (and Gypsy''s) journies with great interest. Best of luck to both of you!!

I''m still trying to figure out exactly what Gypsy''s journey is! I hope she ''jacks'' the thread too!

Best,
LizzyD

 

[diamondfan]

C, have you thought of an emerald cut? no bow tie issue and they are stunning...(I am a bit biased since I have one but...) just thought I would throw that out there...

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 7/8/2006 10:45:17 PM
Author: diamondfan
C, have you thought of an emerald cut? no bow tie issue and they are stunning...(I am a bit biased since I have one but...) just thought I would throw that out there...

Well, yes... I have... it was the cut I liked before I ever liked ovals and I''ve been hooked on ovals for 15 years. I think an emerald is just a tad too linear (though that is like my husband lol) for me, but I still love them. Asschers are cool too, I''m just not sure I feel the zazazu LOL I''m crossing my fingers that I can find the cushion of my dreams. Who wants to help me??? Hello?? LOL!

 

[Gypsy]

My issue. In a nutshell? I''m nuts. LOL.

I have a 1 carat asscher. Have developed DSS. Would like a bigger diamond. Possibly another asscher or a cushion (there are only two cushion cuts I like however). Can''t have either because DF is attached to this diamond. And well... took a while to decide on a setting to make this puppy look bigger. Have a setting idea. Quit my job. Having an exciting (sarcasm) time finding another one. In the meantime spinning circles. Have decided that when I get a new job I''ll be getting the new setting. But I''m still lusting after a new diamond instead of just resetting this one.

For your question on cushion cuts. There is a very helpful thread on this site. I just went through the pics and the certificates one by one on the cushions and figured out which ones I liked... and which I didn''t. Plus... there is a thread called ADMIT IT (search for it) that has cushions listed... including Moremoremore''s three stone cushion ring from Mark T from ERD that is HANDS DOWN my favorite cushion assortment ever.

Hope this helps.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 7/9/2006 12:12:10 AM
Author: Gypsy
My issue. In a nutshell? I''m nuts. LOL.

I have a 1 carat asscher. Have developed DSS. Would like a bigger diamond. Possibly another asscher or a cushion (there are only two cushion cuts I like however). Can''t have either because DF is attached to this diamond. And well... took a while to decide on a setting to make this puppy look bigger. Have a setting idea. Quit my job. Having an exciting (sarcasm) time finding another one. In the meantime spinning circles. Have decided that when I get a new job I''ll be getting the new setting. But I''m still lusting after a new diamond instead of just resetting this one.

For your question on cushion cuts. There is a very helpful thread on this site. I just went through the pics and the certificates one by one on the cushions and figured out which ones I liked... and which I didn''t. Plus... there is a thread called ADMIT IT (search for it) that has cushions listed... including Moremoremore''s three stone cushion ring from Mark T from ERD that is HANDS DOWN my favorite cushion assortment ever.

Hope this helps.

Cashew? hehehe... so what is "DSS"? I haven''t been able to figure that one out lol

And what do you mean by there are only two cushion cuts you like??

Do you love asschers in general? Because if you don''t, you''ll probably never be happy with that stone

But if you do... then I would find what you *love* about your stone and accentuate it. Rather than picking out what you don''t like and trying to "fix" it or camoflauge it. Look at your stone, look at what you love the most about it, and choose a setting that brings that quality to *life*

 

[Gypsy]

I think I generally have too much time on my hands right now. I am not a person comfortable with just being at home. I go to the shelter, I help Df with his work, and stuff... but I''m going slowly insane at home... and therefore am fixating. Also, I''m a project person. I have to have a project occupying me. So I think that the reason for all this angst over a ring is just that... I NEED a freaking job. LOL.

DSS. Crap, forgot what the letters stand for but basically it means shrinkage has set in. Your lovely diamond suddenly looks small to you and you look around see bigger rocks and WANT them. LOL.

Do I love asschers? Talk to me after the 25th. Going to go to GOG and take a look in person (if it''s still there) at ''the perfect asscher'' AKA Isaku''s former 2.26 and some cushions, and rounds and well... LOTS of pretties. I do love asschers that are bigger than mine. But I''m not sure if it''s because DF''s preferences sit so heavily with me and I know he loves them.

What I mean by only two cushion cuts... I mean that there are many MANY different cuts/styles that are ''cushions''-- from Tiffany''s legacy cushion that looks part asscher hybrid to ones that look like radiants with thier busy shattered look. I''ve been looking at different ones online and have noticed that all the ones I like seem to have one of two styles of cut drawn out on the certificate. If you take a look at that thread I posted you''ll see what I mean about the different cushion styles/ cuts.

How is your hunt going?

 

[Cehrabehra]

That thread you linked me to took me to yet another thread and I finally feel like I''m getting SOMETHING to chew on! I''m going to have my dh look over these... I think maybe if I draw the pattern I think I might like, I wonder if it''s already out there?

My search is stuck right now on figuring out 100% sure that cushion is the stone for me. I think it is though I need to go find out about the canary stones... should be interesting! I''ll keep you posted In the mean time, any more ideas - keep ''em coming!!

 

[lizzyd]

Sarah,

Have you gone to see any cushions IRL yet?

Where do you live? Near one of the good P''scope vendors?


Best,

LizzyD

 

[lizzyd]

Gypsy,

Have you thought about having a baby (she said, all innocent-like

)?


LizzyD

 

[Gypsy]

Date: 7/9/2006 11:31:20 AM
Author: lizzyd
Gypsy,

Have you thought about having a baby (she said, all innocent-like

)?


LizzyD

BRILLIANT! I''ll get right on that. *snicker*

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 7/9/2006 11:29:59 AM
Author: lizzyd
Sarah,

Have you gone to see any cushions IRL yet?

Where do you live? Near one of the good P''scope vendors?


Best,

LizzyD

I looked at them in the past but since I''ve kinda turned from ovals... no... and I live about 4 hours from the nearest pscope vendor, I think, at least the only one in oregon, I didn''t check washington (duh) and I called them... they''re nice, but they only have about 20 stones, they''re too far for me to just swing by. I''m not sure it''s the right place to find or look for a cushion.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 7/9/2006 11:36:28 AM
Author: Gypsy

Date: 7/9/2006 11:31:20 AM
Author: lizzyd
Gypsy,

Have you thought about having a baby (she said, all innocent-like

)?


LizzyD

BRILLIANT! I''ll get right on that. *snicker*

Hey, I''ve had three and the distraction is only temporary... once they all get to school age you find yourself with chunks of time to obsess over things again

 

[Gypsy]

Cerha... lizzy was teasing me. DF and I have decided that while we enjoy children, we won''t be having any of our own.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 7/9/2006 11:55:32 AM
Author: Gypsy
Cerha... lizzy was teasing me. DF and I have decided that while we enjoy children, we won''t be having any of our own.

ahhhhh!!! You''ll save lots of money for diamonds! You could name them

 

[lizzyd]

Date: 7/9/2006 11:55:32 AM
Author: Gypsy
Cerha... lizzy was teasing me. DF and I have decided that while we enjoy children, we won''t be having any of our own.

Yeah, that''s what we said when we got married...

 

[Cehrabehra]

Okay... I have another question and I figured I''d just keep it in this thread...

Maybe I missed Diamonds 101A - but is there any structural reason why there cannot be 10 main "arrows" in a long cut such as an oval? When I look at the pics, the area with most scintillation is the area where the facet points are closer together. It seems like you could reproportion the cut so that you would have in effect, TWO side "arrows" on each side in addition to the top and bottom 3. If is not structurally sound (I don''t know the specifics of carbon cutting) that''s one thing... but if it''s just that no one has tried it (or maybe they have and someone can show me how it failed?) I''m left wondering - why not? Why is it always in 8s/4s? I saw that gorgeous six sided stone (but have yet to hear back on the details of it)... why not 10? or 12 for that matter! lol