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Fair Price? Or Rip off?

OoooooShiny

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 7, 2015
Messages
4
I'm looking to upgrade my 2.02 RB to something a little cleaner and sparklier. Hubby originally got me an I/I1 stone that looks surprisingly clean (I might be somewhat blind lol but the inclusions are all white and on the sides) and with less yellow than I expected. He paid $8K in 2014 and it was not certified.

My jeweler is recommending that I get this EGL USA cert stone that is 2.34 ct RB. Jeweler is asking $6500 for it on top of the trade in and he is supposedly giving me the full $8K. $14500 total.

img_1957.png

Carat Weight: 2.34 CT
Clarity: SI2
Color Grade: J
Cut Grade: Ideal Plus

Measurements: 8.49 x 8.43 x 5.29mm
Table: 58%
Depth: 62.5%
Crown Height: 15.5%
Pavilion Height: 43.3%
Girdle: Medium Faceted
Culet: None
Flor: Faint

Finish - Polish EXCELLENT Symmetry EXCELLENT

The cut is much better than mine and I did look under the scope and can confirm there are hearts and arrows. But even with my stone being uncert and an I, it looks whiter than the EGL J... No idea how that makes any sense.

Anyhow, based on what he is asking, is that a fair price? Am I being ripped off? Having gotten a 2.02 for $8K, albeit uncertified vs getting an EGL Ideal Plus 2.34 for $14.5K seems odd.

Please advise. I have the stone on hold until Monday/Tuesday and I'm leaving town for a month on business so quick feedback is appreciated. TIA!!
 

Queenie60

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Sep 15, 2014
Messages
4,274
Would not buy an EGL stone. Their grading system is very inconsistent. I would suggest holding out until something better comes along.
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
55,630
I agree, no EGL. The reports are not reliable at all. An EGL J SI2 is likely a K-L I1 or lower from GIA. Don't do it. Wait and deal with someone who has GIA graded stones. That way we can evaluate price and cut much better. You may not get a lot from your old stone, but don't make the same mistake again.
 

flyingpig

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 7, 2015
Messages
2,175
This is a Round, Ideal cut, J color and SI2 clarity diamond.Total Price 15756.89 CAD ShapeRoundCarat Weight2.34 ctLab / Cert IDEGLUSA / US 912534032D

It is a virtual inventory.
The stone is also offered by a Canadian vendor at 15756.89 CAD or 12k USD. (This is a fair price for this particular stone, although, even this could be slightly inflated)

The diamond being graded by EGL USA is one thing. The high mark-up by the jeweller is another thing.
At the end, the jeweller is only offering 5.5k for the trade-in, instead of full 8k.

Is this the same jeweller where you got the original ring?
If you are locked with this jeweller for the upgrade, at least, try to get a GIA or AGS graded stone. You may have to negociate on price. It looks like he's charging alot.

Lastly, just because you can see "hearts and arrows" patterns, it does not mean the diamond has super ideal H&A light performance.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
28,174
Since that lab lies about color and clarity grades there is no way to know what the grades really are.
Color and clarity grades have a huge effect on value.

With that lab the color and clarity is almost certainly worse than J SI2.
But by how much?
No way to know, maybe a grade, maybe 5 grades.
Since we don't know the grades we don't know what price is appropriate.
Vendors who sell diamonds grade by crappy unethical labs exploit the ambiguity and charge on the high side ... IMO that makes them crappy unethical vendors.

Send this so-called J SI2 to GIA and it may come back M I2, or worse.
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
31,539
flyingpig|1464497534|4037629 said:
Is this the same jeweller where you got the original ring?
If you are locked with this jeweller for the upgrade, at least, try to get a GIA or AGS graded stone. You may have to negociate on price. It looks like he's charging alot.

Lastly, just because you can see "hearts and arrows" patterns, it does not mean the diamond has super ideal H&A light performance.
Yup! Ex advise! :))
 

ChristineRose

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 5, 2012
Messages
926
Ask him to send it to GIA. If it comes back within 1 grade, you buy it and pay for the certification.

The EGL penalty discount used to be about 2.5 grades (combined color and clarity). I suspect it's higher now. What this means is no jeweler will sell a stone with an EGL grade unless it's more than 2.5 grades off. Otherwise they could send it to GIA and get more money out of.

There are exceptions but they are special cases that do not apply here.
 

arkieb1

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 11, 2012
Messages
9,518
EGL USA are much better than EGL places like Asia and India, that being said they can still be off by one or two grades compared to GIA in colour and one or two if you are unlucky out in clarity. They also have less strict margins for what they describe as "Ideal" cuts too.

A 2.34 J SI2 EGL USA is probably = to a GIA K/L I1 in the same size so perhaps that is what you need to compare it to price wise....
 

OoooooShiny

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 7, 2015
Messages
4
Thank you everyone for your wonderful advice and guidance! I really appreciate it. I am locked in with this vendor and I'm now considering
1. keeping my original stone and then saving more money and starting over with a more ethical vendor (ideal but since all that money was already spent, I'm hoping to avoid this route)
2. Since he apparently got the stone from Inter-Continental Jewelers (thanks flyingpig!!), showing him their webpage with the listed $12K price just so he knows that I know it's not worth the extra money he is asking.

Should I just leave it be? What would you do? If I put him on the spot, I'm not sure what outcome would result - well, other than my own relief at him realizing he didn't rope me into a nice payday. I almost doubt he would be like - "oh, that's awkward. Well, then just give me an extra $4K and it's a deal". I'm just annoyed since he told me he "hooked me up" :nono: .... And I did find some nice GIA stones on Inter-Continental Jewelers but would it be reasonable to demand that my jeweler sell the stone to me at the price on the site or is there a markup that is common when stones are transferred from web to a retail store?

I was twisting and turning all night, wondering what kind of conversation to have when I go back in tomorrow. Sorry for all the questions and thanks again!
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
55,630
OoooooShiny|1464544191|4037790 said:
Thank you everyone for your wonderful advice and guidance! I really appreciate it. I am locked in with this vendor and I'm now considering
1. keeping my original stone and then saving more money and starting over with a more ethical vendor (ideal but since all that money was already spent, I'm hoping to avoid this route)
2. Since he apparently got the stone from Inter-Continental Jewelers (thanks flyingpig!!), showing him their webpage with the listed $12K price just so he knows that I know it's not worth the extra money he is asking.

Should I just leave it be? What would you do? If I put him on the spot, I'm not sure what outcome would result - well, other than my own relief at him realizing he didn't rope me into a nice payday. I almost doubt he would be like - "oh, that's awkward. Well, then just give me an extra $4K and it's a deal". I'm just annoyed since he told me he "hooked me up" :nono: .... And I did find some nice GIA stones on Inter-Continental Jewelers that I was considering asking him for, but is the price they list the price on the site I should reasonably get it for? Is it common practice for jewelers to attach a random figure (based on how amateur and naive they think their client is, I guess) to diamond prices?

I was twisting and turning all night, wondering what kind of conversation to have when I go back in tomorrow. Sorry for all the questions.
That doesn't mean he got the stone from another jeweler. All jewelers have access to lists of stones their suppliers have or can access. You will see many stones listed by multiple jewelers/online vendors.

I would not even consider an EGL SI2 since it is likely an I1. VS2 would be my limit for EGL. But, you need to tell him (if you want to work with him), that you want to see GIA excellent cut stones only. Even within that broad category, some stones are better than others.

These are measurements to help you stay in ideal cut territory with a GIA excellent cut stone.

table: 54-58

depth: 60-62.3

crown angle: 34-35.0 (up to 35.5 crown angle can sometimes work with a 40.6 pav angle)

pavilion angle: 40.6-40.9 (sometimes 41.0 if the crown angle is close to 34)

We can help you with price comps on any stones he offers you. I'd post the GIA report links here before getting him to call them in.
 

flyingpig

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 7, 2015
Messages
2,175
I would at least try to work with this vendor one more time. He has access to EGL diamonds. He should be able to order a GIA diamond from virtual inventory.

Ask the vendor to find a diamond with the following proportions
Color, Carat, Clarity (SI1 or above is recommended. SI2 can be ok, as long as you are highly selective and know what you are looking for) of your choice
Table 54-58 (maybe 54-60)
Pavillion Angle 40.6-41
Crown Angle 34-35 (maybe 33.5-35.5)
Depth less than 62.3
You plugs all numbers in and the score should be less than 2.0
https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca

See what he can offer. I would not want to work with this vendor, but you may take more loss if you try to sell that uncertified I I1 in the second hand market. I highly doubt any other vendor will honor the full 8k or even 5.5k for the stone.

Ask nicely. I would not mention his mark up at all on that EGL, not around this time. But do a market research and see how much GIA stones should cost (easily done by looking at stones at bluenile, james allen, and pricescope search engine). Like I said, you may have to haggle a bit. $8k is alot of money locked in that I I1.

If the conversion goes nowhere, then, you may have to start fresh with a new vendor.

Good luck.
 

OoohShiny

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 25, 2014
Messages
7,173
I have nothing to add other than Welcome to my namesake :bigsmile: lol
 
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