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Eye Clean SI1 in a 4+ carat RB, possible?

captainmcgee

captainmcgee

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Aug 10, 2010
Messages
329
Hi There,

I'm a newbie trying to learn as much as possible from the incredible source of knowledge that is this forum.

I am on the search for a 4+ carat RB. I want to get the best value for money and don't really want to go over about $115,000 for the stone so I am looking at SI1. I am thinking I don't want to go anywhere past G colour and obviously do not want to compromise on cut and don't want to go under 4 carats.

Do you think it is possible to have an eye clean SI1 or are these extremely hard to come by?
Would a feather such as this be extremely obvious? Would it be detrimental to the stone?
http://www.diamonds.net/UF/29424/Certs/q-153.jpg
Is this a good stone? It came back as 0.9 on HCA.


If possible it would be fantastic to see some examples of a good stone. I find I am a little bit lost when it comes to determining the best just from numbers, what I think looks good on paper perhaps may not be the best possible stone for my budget.

Thanks in advance.
 
That would be visible.

If a 4ct SI1 is eyeclen then it probably will have some other nasty.
Forget it.
SI1 eyeclean at 3ct is about the limit unless your nearly blind.

Market pricing for H VS2 vs H SI1
1ct 9%
2ct 12%
3ct 16%
4ct 37.5%

The market is not silly
 
Thanks Gary.

So would I be able to see find a 4ct at VS2 eye-clean?
 
Yes Mif, but where as most 1ct vS2 are eyeclean - maybe half will not be eyeclean or have some graining or other issue.
I suggest you put a lot of faith in your vendor and / or use an appraiser.

e.g 4ct VS2 to VS1 = 19% price jump where as VS1 to VVS2 is only 8% - in 1ct and most sizes the VS to VVS is the other way around.
 
Thanks so much for your advice.

I am thinking because it is going to be a task finding an eye-clean in my carat range I will most definitely need to see the stones in person. It is just a shame because they are so much more expensive where I live but I am not sure I want to risk it.
 
additionally the grading can be rather inconsistent in my experience. I have a 5 carat stone vs2. so clean that i am surprised its not a vvs grade. it was cleaner than every vs1 i could compare to as well as a vvs2 i was considering. i went through a lot of stones...................
 
Ok so the best option it seems is to just go through a lot of stones!
 
mif_ said:
Ok so the best option it seems is to just go through a lot of stones!
Click to expand...
yes, and keep your criteria broad to raise the number of hopefuls - and do not think you can be more expert that the graders.

Bgray that can be bad advice - there are not VVS2's graded as VS2 or visa versa
 
Garry H (Cut Nut) said:
That would be visible.

If a 4ct SI1 is eyeclen then it probably will have some other nasty.
Forget it.
SI1 eyeclean at 3ct is about the limit unless your nearly blind.

Market pricing for H VS2 vs H SI1
1ct 9%
2ct 12%
3ct 16%
4ct 37.5%

The market is not silly
Click to expand...

I am confused by this... I have a 3.18 I si2 that is eye clean... Even though I KNOW where the inclusions are I can not see them unless I put the stone much much closer to my eyes. Also due to the cut of the stone (and especially when it's clean... It is a huge disco ball of light!) I think it makes it very hard to see anything.

But my question is.. And I think this is relevant to the thread... Ok take a one carat diamond that is an i1. Take those same inclusions- exactly the same size and shape and put them in a 4 carat diamond- is it an i1? Are inclusions relative??? I guess why I'm asking is that in a smaller stone with the inclusions closer together the inclusion to clean-part-of-the-diamond ratio is closer together but when you put them in a larger stone there is more "clean part of the diamond" so the ratio difference is much larger..... So if a 1 carat si1 can be eye clean.. Why can't a 4 carat si1?????
 
bean said:
Garry H (Cut Nut) said:
That would be visible.

If a 4ct SI1 is eyeclen then it probably will have some other nasty.
Forget it.
SI1 eyeclean at 3ct is about the limit unless your nearly blind.

Market pricing for H VS2 vs H SI1
1ct 9%
2ct 12%
3ct 16%
4ct 37.5%

The market is not silly
Click to expand...

I am confused by this... I have a 3.18 I si2 that is eye clean... Even though I KNOW where the inclusions are I can not see them unless I put the stone much much closer to my eyes. Also due to the cut of the stone (and especially when it's clean... It is a huge disco ball of light!) I think it makes it very hard to see anything.

But my question is.. And I think this is relevant to the thread... Ok take a one carat diamond that is an i1. Take those same inclusions- exactly the same size and shape and put them in a 4 carat diamond- is it an i1? Are inclusions relative??? I guess why I'm asking is that in a smaller stone with the inclusions closer together the inclusion to clean-part-of-the-diamond ratio is closer together but when you put them in a larger stone there is more "clean part of the diamond" so the ratio difference is much larger..... So if a 1 carat si1 can be eye clean.. Why can't a 4 carat si1?????
Click to expand...


Great point, I'd be interested to know this!
 
bean said:
Garry H (Cut Nut) said:
That would be visible.

If a 4ct SI1 is eyeclen then it probably will have some other nasty.
Forget it.
SI1 eyeclean at 3ct is about the limit unless your nearly blind.

Market pricing for H VS2 vs H SI1
1ct 9%
2ct 12%
3ct 16%
4ct 37.5%

The market is not silly
Click to expand...

I am confused by this... I have a 3.18 I si2 that is eye clean... Even though I KNOW where the inclusions are I can not see them unless I put the stone much much closer to my eyes. Also due to the cut of the stone (and especially when it's clean... It is a huge disco ball of light!) I think it makes it very hard to see anything.

But my question is.. And I think this is relevant to the thread... Ok take a one carat diamond that is an i1. Take those same inclusions- exactly the same size and shape and put them in a 4 carat diamond- is it an i1? Are inclusions relative??? I guess why I'm asking is that in a smaller stone with the inclusions closer together the inclusion to clean-part-of-the-diamond ratio is closer together but when you put them in a larger stone there is more "clean part of the diamond" so the ratio difference is much larger..... So if a 1 carat si1 can be eye clean.. Why can't a 4 carat si1?????
Click to expand...

Beanjust because a stone is SI2 and eye clean does not mean there is no other problem.
An expert could quite likely show you 2 or 3 other problems that have been why what looks like a nice stone to you has been down-graded.
I do not want to be condescending, but consider - can you identify graining? Clouds? Opens on the crown, table, girdle? Can you guage where the inclusion reflections will be and find them? Can you identify the depth in the stone of inclusions?
and more.

Clrity grading evolved badly.
VVS1/ Flawless = the boundary where the inclusion is just visible under 10x. The standard is the same for 0.50ct and 500ct.
I3 covers a large % of the stone, and is different for a 0.10ct, 0.50ct and 5ct stone. There are no defined rules - it is experiance based. For example what grade should this stone be for each of those sizes? It would be different - do you agree?
VS and SI are a mish mash between these 2 grading systems.

Its a mess.

0.30ct SI2 300dpi.jpg
 
Great discussions! I'm definitely interested in this thread.

I'm no expert, only a diamond lover; and from a diamond lover's point of view, shouldn't "eye-clean" depend on how the wearer's eyes see the inclusions in a stone (or lack thereof) and how "clarity-sensitive" they are? Or it could be a "mind-clean" issue.
 
I'm asking if these two diamonds would get the same grade in clarity.

I understand that I may not be an expert, but I was talking about the aspect of it being eye clean, not the durability issue.

ETA: these look a little "man in the moon" but you get the point :tongue:

diamondinclu.jpg
 
bean said:
I'm asking if these two diamonds would get the same grade in clarity.

I understand that I may not be an expert, but I was talking about the aspect of it being eye clean, not the durability issue.

ETA: these look a little "man in the moon" but you get the point :tongue:
Click to expand...

Hmm, give me ct wt's or diameters pls Bean
 
and place the inclusions in the same relative place because table inclusions count for more

You have too many variables already!
 
Lol I drew that in Photoshop in two secs.. I will try to make another one then!!! :sun: I didn't think about the placement or even the carat weight. I will attempt this again after some sleep and some more thought.
 
bean said:
Lol I drew that in Photoshop in two secs.. I will try to make another one then!!! :sun: I didn't think about the placement or even the carat weight. I will attempt this again after some sleep and some more thought.
Click to expand...
Sleep tight.
But me thinks you are starting to 'get' the complexity.
HRD began quantifying and rule basing 20 years ago, but stopped as they got to lower grades - I think it was because it got impossible.
GIA are trying to do it now - they have 2 patent applications - they both look rather lame to me.

OctoNus uses the old HRD system, and we are probably leaders in the field because we have been developing a 3D digital inclusion system which is patent pending.
 
Ok. Super complex issue. So much to think about.

I think I will have to try and get in touch and discuss my worries directly with the vendor and just try and see as many stones as possible in real life.
 
mif_ said:
Ok. Super complex issue. So much to think about.

I think I will have to try and get in touch and discuss my worries directly with the vendor and just try and see as many stones as possible in real life.
Click to expand...
My main point Mif is this - you are spending a lot of hard earned, so you will learn 5 times faster than most 20 year old gemo students, but you can never catch up on even 1/3rd of the info that comes from many years of handling hundreds of thousands of diamonds.
A good vendor though is a great start - but if a stone looks too good, it probably is because the graders are not fools. They rarely make mistakes.
 
Thanks so much Gary!

The information I have gained from this thread and the forum generally is invaluable. I think going into this search armed with this information and also access to this forum is a great help. I certainly won't be fooled (I hope!)

I am not wanting to compromise on cut, clarity or really colour am happy to go to G colour, so it seemed that the only variable I had to play with was clarity. Just have to hope that somewhere out there, there is an eye-clean 4ct RB, G+.

http://www.bluenile.com/diamond-search?filter_id=0&track=head#diamonds_pid=LD01935171

Can someone tell me what is a stand out problem with this stone? One minute I feel like I'm learning and then I am lost again... haha!
 
mif_ said:
Thanks so much Gary!

The information I have gained from this thread and the forum generally is invaluable. I think going into this search armed with this information and also access to this forum is a great help. I certainly won't be fooled (I hope!)

I am not wanting to compromise on cut, clarity or really colour am happy to go to G colour, so it seemed that the only variable I had to play with was clarity. Just have to hope that somewhere out there, there is an eye-clean 4ct RB, G+.

http://www.bluenile.com/diamond-search?filter_id=0&track=head#diamonds_pid=LD01935171

Can someone tell me what is a stand out problem with this stone? One minute I feel like I'm learning and then I am lost again... haha!
Click to expand...
It is a possablility, but the laibility is this is a virtual stone.
If you are to consider it at all have the vendor (this one is not a high service company) send it directly to an appraiser.
 
Garry, what do you think the eye-cleaness of this is likely to be? (not a 4ct but I'd like to get your input to help me understand the clarity issue better):

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-SI1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1326243.asp

Would it be possible to tell from the plot on the cert? I ask because clouds seem, to *me*, not to be eye-visible - generally speaking (or maybe one cannot generalise here?). The feather on this stone is on the pavilliion, so it's unlikely to show from the top view (or is it?).
 
Phoenix said:
Garry, what do you think the eye-cleaness of this is likely to be? (not a 4ct but I'd like to get your input to help me understand the clarity issue better):

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-SI1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1326243.asp

Would it be possible to tell from the plot on the cert? I ask because clouds seem, to *me*, not to be eye-visible - generally speaking (or maybe one cannot generalise here?). The feather on this stone is on the pavilliion, so it's unlikely to show from the top view (or is it?).
Click to expand...
Probably eye clean, I would not want to say from that photo if the clouds are an issue.
 
Phoenix said:
Garry, what do you think the eye-cleaness of this is likely to be? (not a 4ct but I'd like to get your input to help me understand the clarity issue better):

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-SI1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1326243.asp

Would it be possible to tell from the plot on the cert? I ask because clouds seem, to *me*, not to be eye-visible - generally speaking (or maybe one cannot generalise here?). The feather on this stone is on the pavilliion, so it's unlikely to show from the top view (or is it?).
Click to expand...
I would want the feather checked and the only way to tell if the clouds are an issue is to look at it.
When it comes to clouds density and plane is more of an issue than the size.
A small dense cloud will have a larger effect than a much larger but spread out cloud.
Think of it this way... take 2 same size bowls of mashed potatoes, now add some pepper same to both, in one leave it all in a ball in one area and the other spread it out.
Which has a greater effect on the white appearance?
It takes a lot more pepper when spread out to affect the appearance, eventually it will however.
Same with diamonds and clouds.
 
Hi
I have found that many 4ct SI stones are indeed eye clean
The value is there based on the premium charged for VS2 versus SI1
You do need to look at the stone first hand- or have someone you trust look at it
Also make sure you get a money back guarantee
My wife wears an SI2 which is larger than 4cts
No one has ever spotted an imperfection- although the stone has about 6 pinpoints
They are dispersed
If it was one single area of imperfection it would likely be visible to the eye
So, you only need to look
 
Garry H (Cut Nut) said:
mif_ said:
Ok so the best option it seems is to just go through a lot of stones!
Click to expand...
yes, and keep your criteria broad to raise the number of hopefuls - and do not think you can be more expert that the graders.

Bgray that can be bad advice - there are not VVS2's graded as VS2 or visa versa
Click to expand...


Garry:

Point taken. I guess when I was looking I was just looking at a stone and deciding yes/no and moving on. I had practically given up and was on the verge of buying a vvs1 when my stone showed up.....I found the clarity grading tough to get a handle on. I was only looking at vs2 and up and was really surprised by the wide inconsistencies. My stone is also an EC which makes it a slightly different endeavor.
 
Mif,
If I were going to spend that kind of money on a stone, I would not work with Blue Nile. I would use a PS vendor to go find you exactly what you want. There are just too many variables and BN doesn't have the stone in house anyway. Plus, I assume you're going to set it, so you have to think about who you'd entrust a diamond of that caliber to; seems to me that bundling with a PS vendor and designer would be the way to go. I did a quick search of some of the vendors; high performance diamonds has two, but their colors are lower than G. http://highperformancediamonds.com/...ut_grade[]=All&Submit=++++Search++++&limit=50

I saw this one at Mark Broumand: http://www.markbroumand.com/product...gement-Anniversary-Ring__1593-1D95938743.aspx but not sure if the cut is what you want. They've got some others that you might like. Leon has some on his site as well: http://www.theartofplatinum.combut I am not sure what is in- versus out-of-house. Brian Gavin doesn't have any of his signature at that carat weight, but I know they can help as well.

Essentially what I'm saying is that you can't approach buying a 4 carat plus stone like you would buy a 1 carat stone. It's a Bentley vs. a Lexus. Both are nice, but I would not want to buy a Bentley from a Lexus dealer. Find a specialist in that size of stones, not someone that sells just any size, and then go from there.
 
Thanks so much for all the advice. I will definitely be looking for someone who is willing to take the time to help me find the perfect stone.
I wanted it set by Leon. Should I source the stone or go though there?

I was also wondering should I even consider 'very good' cut grade or only go for excellent/ideal?
 
for that size stone, and if you are going to want Leon to set it, I'd start with him.
 
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