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Extra Facet - How will this affect Price/Value?

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quali_boy

quali_boy

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 8, 2007
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22
I have an opportunity to purchase a 2.01ct F SI1 - EGL Israel certified diamond. I know that EGL Israel has a reputation of grading softly, but apparently really good certs having been coming out of there over the last 6 months. And if I make the purchase, I will re-certify at HRD or IGI in Europe.

As per the attached cert, I foresee 3 problems with this possible purchase: (1) slightly shallow depth of 58.5%, although according to Garry''s tutorial, it is perfectly acceptable, (2) slight graining, although I have already done plenty of reading-up on the matter and it doesn''t appear to influence price and appearance. And (3), my big concern, a polished extra facet just beneath the faceted girdle.

This is an internet transaction so I am relying completely on the dealer''s opinion and 100% money back guarantee. The dealer says that the EF is very small and cannot be seen with the naked eye and doesn''t influence the brilliance of the stone at all. The diameter also provides a really nice spread.

I took all the data and fed it through Garry''s acid test, the HCA, and it came up with the following end result: 1.3! This diamond sounds just too good to be true considering that it is being offered to me at Rap less 40%.

Light Return: VG
Fire: EX
Scintillation: EX
Spread: EX

My BIG question is: How will this EF affect the PRICE and VALUE of this particular stone please?

Many thanks.
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Gary-2.01ct F SI1.jpg
 
The extra facet will have no bearing.
HCA or not I don''t like the shallow 58.5% total depth.Have you seen the stone personally?
 
I can''t help you much here but I was looking at the inclusion plot and was wondering what inclusions were actually causing the SI1 grade?
 
Date: 7/8/2007 2:18:18 PM
Author:quali_boy
I have an opportunity to purchase a 2.01ct F SI1 - EGL Israel certified diamond. I know that EGL Israel has a reputation of grading softly, but apparently really good certs having been coming out of there over the last 6 months. And if I make the purchase, I will re-certify at HRD or IGI in Europe.
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IGI is as bad as EGL Israel, Who is saying that EGL Israel has been doing better lately?
If its the vendor id take it with a .0001 grains of sand.
overall sounds like a sub par stone and graded by a junk lab.
 
Lots of red flags here:

EGL is softer than GIA/AGS and EGL israel is probably softer than EGL USA, but experts would know better on the last part. I wouldn't send the stone to HRD or IGI b/c as storm mentioned they are just as bad. I'd only bother to send it to AGS or GIA.

58% depth in my opinion is too shallow
60% table is my opinion is too large
-this diamond will appear large for its carat weight, but it's probably not as well cut as you could find and will not give very much fire.

The EF is just another indicator of a lack of attention to detail and a lack of superior cut. I'm not sure what kind of difference it would make to the appearance of the stone (maybe none), but this stone has other cut issues...
 
Thanks for your thoughts, junior35 - I was also concerned about the shallow 58.5%, although the vendor reckons the cut is almost an ideal cut.
 
Sorry, no I haven''t seen it personally - it is an internet deal with a 100% money back guarantee. The price is really good which makes me wonder...
 
Thanks all the same - I guess the plots (pins and specs) on the left and right of the 1st diagram are cauing the SI1 grade. It could also be that the EF is also contributing to the grading.
 
Thanks for your comments - I was always under the impression that IGI was well respected. Yes, I''m afraid it is the vendor blowing EGL Israel''s trumpet! GIA and AGS labs are the best and most well-respected, but their diamonds also come with a hefty price tag.
 
Thanks for your advice - I haven''t been sleeping much because I have to make a decision soon. I have always heard that EGL -Israel is shocking to say the least. I have bought an EGL-USA 2.0ct before and it was appraised 2 colours lower by another lab, EGL-South Africa, which is considered to be extremely strict. EGL - SA readily grades much more conservatively than loosley. I once purchased a 1.06ct G VS2 EM with EGL-Israel. Had it re-certed at EGL-SA and it came out an I SI1!!
 
would you mind giving us some actual prices? Also, as to the inclusion again, I would say you need to find out more about them. I see what looks to be a feather over along the girdle that could be responsible for an SI1 grade...but what if they are being soft and it is and SI2 or I1? though it is always hard to tell just from plot inclusions. I am concerned for the possibility of a large cloud under the table, or some other major inclusion that has disappeared in the process of drawing and then scanning the inclusions online.

nontheless a price would really be really nice.
 
Sure, WorkingHardforSmallRewards - the vendor quoted me a price of $13865, which I roughly calculate dis Rap less 42. I haven''t seen the stone but the vendor assures me that I will love it, otherwise money back! Looking at my saved pic of the cert, I can''t see any cloud or tiny crystals dead centre - just what is on the sides. I wouldn''t give the stone a VS2 though as there are a few specs and 2 pins.
 
Date: 7/8/2007 4:49:04 PM
Author: quali_boy
Thanks for your comments - I was always under the impression that IGI was well respected. Yes, I''m afraid it is the vendor blowing EGL Israel''s trumpet! GIA and AGS labs are the best and most well-respected, but their diamonds also come with a hefty price tag.
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Hmmm, actually getting what you are paying for can do that to a price....

Wink
 
That is true, but then why is there so much discrepancy between the so-called respected labs then. Don''t they all use the same, or similar technology? Is return business from cutting works or wholesalers the sole driving force behind the unscrupulous labs?
 
Date: 7/8/2007 5:04:37 PM
Author: quali_boy
Sure, WorkingHardforSmallRewards - the vendor quoted me a price of $13865, which I roughly calculate dis Rap less 42. I haven''t seen the stone but the vendor assures me that I will love it, otherwise money back! Looking at my saved pic of the cert, I can''t see any cloud or tiny crystals dead centre - just what is on the sides. I wouldn''t give the stone a VS2 though as there are a few specs and 2 pins.
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There we go, that price is really the key and why everyone gets so frustrated and says the same thing over and over. Sure, it is a great discount on an F SI1, but if it is a perfectly normal online deal--and since it sounds like its not a true vendor..maybe ebay? or something similar? then it would in fact be a good deal overpriced.

look at this thread, I searched out a bunch of 2ct H-I SI''1 and VS2s for 13-14.5k

Follow this link toward the bottom

And that is assuming that the clarity is right on. Lets suppose color was right on and it was actual an SI2

then you have a wide variety of diamonds such as this one that with the PS discount is 14.2k at F SI2: http://www.whiteflash.com/round/Round-cut-diamond-303067.htm

and now lets say it is a G SI2 then you have a MUCH better selection of diamonds for equal and lesser price, such as this Expert Selection for 2.11 ct 12,500 with PS discount (13without) G SI2:

http://www.whiteflash.com/round/Round-cut-diamond-336584.htm


Now, these are not AGS 0 cut grade diamonds--those certainly do come at a premium, but I have to say that nothing about that diamond is either.


Now if it is an actual F SI1 then of course its a fantastic deal, but the very fact that he is eager to get rid of it, is talking about "improvements" in a grading lab that are unsubstantiated by all the research I have been able to do, and is offering this diamond at such a fantastic "discount" it seems obvious to me that the discount is in fact the appropriate or overpriced value according to what the actual color/clarity gardes are and you should just go ahead and by something where you can really know what it is. It seems to me that this is a case where at best you are getting an average deal and at worst you are getting a terrible deal--just about no chance in hell it is a good deal and def not 40% off.
 
Date: 7/8/2007 5:19:52 PM
Author: quali_boy
That is true, but then why is there so much discrepancy between the so-called respected labs then. Don''t they all use the same, or similar technology? Is return business from cutting works or wholesalers the sole driving force behind the unscrupulous labs?
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define respected...
Yes they use the same tech .. eyeballs... how they are trained and what standards they grade too is the difference.
Yes repeat business is the driving force for all labs, some do it by having a good reputation others do it by helping scammers and some just plain suck but they are fast and cheap.
 
Also consider that there is alot of money in high clarity/color diamonds. Thus it makes sense that some people would create labs that give pretty generous color and clarity grades. If they are more generous then more jewelers will want to send their poor quality diamonds to that lab knowing that it will come back higher than at say GIA or AGS. Obviously this will have beneficial repercussions to the lab that is more lenient in their grading, and to the vendor that is selling the diamond to an uneducated public.

Thus a general rule of thumb that I have found by going to local jewelry stores, talking to jewelers, looking at diamonds and researching online and here on PS, is that higher quality diamonds usually have GIA or AGS lab reports.

I imagine this is often because when the jeweler looks at the diamond and determines it will score well he/she will want to send it to the most "reliable" lab that will carry the highest premium. But then when he/she has a lower quality diamond it would only make sense to send it to the less "reliable" lab as the higher color and clarity ratings will carry a higher value premium than the value lost by not getting a GIA/AGS report. The diamonds will rate higher and cost more money--even though they are of lower quality with a discount per the Cert-as you are discovering. Thus it makes sense for there to be a very natural and real niche in the grading industry for such labs to exist, it will be profitable, and so it is only logical that they do in fact exist. Therefore you must use caution and do research before determining to trust any particular lab.

In the end though the answer really lies in the simple fact that the Vendor is offering you a major discount on the diamond. Do you know him? any particular reason why he should be offering you this massive discount? I believe that is a pretty solid place to begin questioning the validity of the claims on the EGL Israel cert.
 
Thanks "WorkingHardforSmallRewards" for all the worthwhile info and time spent on my crisis! Unfortunately I cannot go lower than the required 2.0ct G SI1. Although one can find great-looking eye-clean SI2''s, she just won''t accept it as she has already been advised by a top jeweller what to go for.
 
WOW! Those are fantastic prices - I''m going to do some research now on those sites that you''ve just referenced if I don''t reply to you right away. And then it''s bed time...I''ll be in touch.
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Those sites should be able to help out a little more, but If it is just the name G or F-SI1 that is important to her and not the true quality (but be aware, she will probably take it to an appraiser!) then EGL israel might be the way to go.

Otherwise I say pursue some of those deals with some of these vendors that can give you some better advice, images, etc--like wf, I doubt they will steer you wrong even if it is an EGL cert,

but this is your E ring, and she is learning about diamonds.

That says to me, Up your budget 10% or so and get yourself a real cert that you don't have to question at all and that even after studying diamonds further she will know "this is a great balance between quality and size" and she can get an independent appraisal to support it. I know, I wouldn't want to risk it if she were studying, because she may find that the paper itself is not sufficient in the not to distant future when she discovers it is really an H SI2 or who only knows what with a very shallow cut, unknown angles and an extra facet.
 
Date: 7/8/2007 4:38:38 PM
Author: kcoursolle
Lots of red flags here:

EGL is softer than GIA/AGS and EGL israel is probably softer than EGL USA, but experts would know better on the last part. I wouldn''t send the stone to HRD or IGI b/c as storm mentioned they are just as bad. I''d only bother to send it to AGS or GIA.

58% depth in my opinion is too shallow
60% table is my opinion is too large
-this diamond will appear large for its carat weight, but it''s probably not as well cut as you could find and will not give very much fire.

The EF is just another indicator of a lack of attention to detail and a lack of superior cut. I''m not sure what kind of difference it would make to the appearance of the stone (maybe none), but this stone has other cut issues...
Click to expand...
Please don''t group IGI and HRD together.HRD is still very respected in Europe and its certficates widely sold the EU.Just because you don''t see too many HRD certs in the US doesn''t delegate it to a third tier outfit.
 
Edited after viewing Q's post below
 
Date: 7/8/2007 4:38:38 PM
Author: kcoursolle

EGL is softer than GIA/AGS and EGL israel is probably softer than EGL USA, but experts would know better on the last part. I wouldn't send the stone to HRD or IGI b/c as storm mentioned they are just as bad. I'd only bother to send it to AGS or GIA.
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Hey KC, just a mention that HRD actually enjoys a reputation for top grading standards. They're just not as present on this side of the pond as AGS and GIA.

Edited to add: Just saw Junior's reply. Sorry for the double comment. As a FYI, many manufacturers are located in Belgium, so the relative standards get compared all the time.

Edited again after seeing edit above.
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Hey WH4SR,

Thanks again for those site hints - the prices are fantastic! Unfortunately the one that you fwd from WF was already sold. But Abazias have wonderful stock, or are representing wonderful stock. By the way, in answer to your q if that was "my" diamond - it certainly looks as though it is, I mean the specs are EXACTLY the same, excpet the slight FL. I have requested a cert from Abazias to compare. If it is, it wouldn''t surprise me because so mayn of these NYC diamond dealers are mere brokers, advertising stock from other sites etc.

Go well.
 
Date: 7/8/2007 8:36:15 PM
Author: JohnQuixote

Date: 7/8/2007 4:38:38 PM
Author: kcoursolle

EGL is softer than GIA/AGS and EGL israel is probably softer than EGL USA, but experts would know better on the last part. I wouldn''t send the stone to HRD or IGI b/c as storm mentioned they are just as bad. I''d only bother to send it to AGS or GIA.
Click to expand...
Hey KC, just a mention that HRD actually enjoys a reputation for top grading standards. They''re just not as present on this side of the pond as AGS and GIA.

Edited to add: Just saw Junior''s reply. Sorry for the double comment. As a FYI, many manufacturers are located in Belgium, so the relative standards get compared all the time.

Edited again after seeing edit above.
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Thritto that!
 
I'll grant you that this stone is going for $1500 less than the other 2.01 F SI1 EGL Israel stone (link) in the database. So in that regard it could be a good deal, assuming that the non-traditional angles actually complement one another well and give you a larger spread without sacrificing much sparkle. I have earrings with similar cuts to this stone (granted they are much smaller at .36 each), so I won't tell you this can't be an interesting and worthwhile stone.

That said, the generally lower price for EGL Israel stones is reflecting the fact that everyone assumes your color and clarity are inflated. Are you ok with that? If you're ok with G-H SI2-I1 from a stricter lab, then this may be the perfect stone for you.
 
If this stone is what the cert says it is, then it would trade at prices considerably higher than this between dealers. So, something is definitely wrong.

Live long,
 
Hi and thanks for your remarks. I''m definitely not OK with getting a G/H SI2-I1 from a more conservative lab. Everyones comments on this thread have put the fear of G-D into me, including my future mother in law to be! I have decided, after much deliberation and joint collaberation from all concerned on PS to leave the stone in cyberspace.

Thanks to all for their sensible judgements - you''ve probably saved me money and the wrath of mother in law.
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def the right choice I think, since it is an SI1, especially if she is learning more herself.
 
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