Evaluating Princess Cut Quality

[Stoneferry]

Hi, I''ve found a princess cut diamond which is at the specifications I''m looking for but as a novice I''m concerned about buying a dud.

The diamond is certified as IGI and where I live I''m lucky to find a certified stone, this one being the only one.

Does anyone on here have any tips for assessing cut quality without the aid of multi-million dollar computers and laboratories etc. I''m aware AGS have a grading system which takes into account depth, table, polish etc. Other than these, does anyone have any other tips?

I have spoken to an IGI gemologist, who has confirmed to me that ideal-scopes are useless with assessing light refraction with princess cuts.

Thanks in advance

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 11/19/2006 4:26:53 PM
Author:Stoneferry

I have spoken to an IGI gemologist, who has confirmed to me that ideal-scopes are useless with assessing light refraction with princess cuts.

Did your IGI gemologist have an IS? Use them for anything?

See at least what Garry says about them, as well as of the ASET scope.

Dave has Princess charts here, but based on current research you are mindful of, I''m leery of finding any good proportions, per se.

 

[DBM]

Firstly what is the size of the stone you''re looking to purchase? For smaller sizes you can rely more on your look and feel of the stone to gauge value since there''s less of a range of price difference.

 

[Stoneferry]

It''s a .54 carat

The IGI gemologist I spoke to said Imagescopes are only designed for brilliant "hearts and arrows" cuts and are useless for measuring light refraction in Princess cuts.

As for looking at a diamond I''m a novice and probably don''t ahve the skills to see a bad diamond, unless it''s really bad.

I would like an excellent cut, and if what the IGI gemologist said was true then the only other way of getting an excellent cut is to check the proportions against the AGA charts. AGS graded diamonds do not exist here at all, I''m lucky to find an IGI princess cut.

Is there anything I can do other than check the specs on the IGI certificate?

 

[DBM]

IMO I agree with him that an IdealScope won''t help you and at a relatively small size of a .54 ct it''s kind of silly to deal in certificates. Try to view the stone in fluorescent light on a white piece of paper and ask if you can also loupe it. you should have some sense of "bling" to know what shouts out and what doesn''t... more importantly though whats the color and clarity?

 

[Regular Guy]

I''m now reminded of your post of about a month ago.

Per DBMS comments: "you should have some sense of "bling" to know what shouts out and what doesn''t..."
I agree, and I''m not sure how you''ll otherwise get that, except for seeing an item that has been certified by some respected research as good. Not sure if your interest in having something well cut carries over to wanting the hassle of having something shipped into you for comparison sake. With some of our respected vendors, you do have 30 days to compare.

Otherwise:

Date: 11/19/2006 5:37:50 PM
Author: Stoneferry
It''s a .54 carat

The IGI gemologist I spoke to said Imagescopes are only designed for brilliant ''hearts and arrows'' cuts and are useless for measuring light refraction in Princess cuts.

As for looking at a diamond I''m a novice and probably don''t ahve the skills to see a bad diamond, unless it''s really bad.

Though I too am not personally skilled at using an IS scope, your gemologist, with no significant blame to him, for it''s lack of broad use, felt really too free to mis-speak, because he was surely talking about a hearts & arrows scope, and not an idealscope...two very different devices, with the one he discussed to be used as he says, and the other to be used to measure light performance.

Warm regards,

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

thanks for correcting that Ira, H&A''s scopes are useless for princess, but our IGI friend could do with some education.

If you visit here http://ideal-scope.com/using_reference_chart_ASET.asp you will find the state of the art method for princess cut grading.

an ideal-scope is next best to an ASET scope.

Please inform your contact at IGI too.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 11/19/2006 5:48:06 PM
Author: DBM
IMO I agree with him that an IdealScope won''t help you and at a relatively small size of a .54 ct it''s kind of silly to deal in certificates. Try to view the stone in fluorescent light on a white piece of paper and ask if you can also loupe it. you should have some sense of ''bling'' to know what shouts out and what doesn''t... more importantly though whats the color and clarity?

DBM how far should the fluoro light be from the diamond?

(is color and clarity where the ''bling'' comes from?)

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 11/19/2006 4:26:53 PM
Author:Stoneferry
Hi, I''ve found a princess cut diamond which is at the specifications I''m looking for but as a novice I''m concerned about buying a dud.

The diamond is certified as IGI and where I live I''m lucky to find a certified stone, this one being the only one.

Does anyone on here have any tips for assessing cut quality without the aid of multi-million dollar computers and laboratories etc. I''m aware AGS have a grading system which takes into account depth, table, polish etc. Other than these, does anyone have any other tips?

I have spoken to an IGI gemologist, who has confirmed to me that ideal-scopes are useless with assessing light refraction with princess cuts.

Thanks in advance

BTW Stoneferry, a little know story - I am aware that the Asian and far easten IGI labs undertook quite a lot of cut development work with a number of large manufacturers specializing in princess cuts. i believe they improved the ''bling'' quite a bit - a rare instance of labs actually adding hidden value.

 

[DBM]

Date: 11/19/2006 6:52:33 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 11/19/2006 5:48:06 PM
Author: DBM
IMO I agree with him that an IdealScope won''t help you and at a relatively small size of a .54 ct it''s kind of silly to deal in certificates. Try to view the stone in fluorescent light on a white piece of paper and ask if you can also loupe it. you should have some sense of ''bling'' to know what shouts out and what doesn''t... more importantly though whats the color and clarity?

DBM how far should the fluoro light be from the diamond?

(is color and clarity where the ''bling'' comes from?)

While i''m certainly not looking to butt heads with you Gary I will atleast say that yes, in my opinion the "cut" is not as important as color atleast. What i mean by that is obviously a poor or fair cut or good cut is cetainly a detractor BUT i think once you start splitting hairs between VERY GOODs and EXCELLENT and Ideals.. i don''t know... i just have my reservations about how far it really is noticed by the average consumer and how much is just the "placebo effect" of either a jeweler or paper telling them so... My opinion only.

In GIA before we got down to the brass tacks of crown and pavillion angles and the like the instructor simply told us for grading cut -- look at the stone and go with your gut feel for what the brilliance level is -- pure subjective eye-bling

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 11/20/2006 1:08:33 AM
Author: DBM

While i''m certainly not looking to butt heads with you Gary I will atleast say that yes, in my opinion the ''cut'' is not as important as color atleast. What i mean by that is obviously a poor or fair cut or good cut is cetainly a detractor BUT i think once you start splitting hairs between VERY GOODs and EXCELLENT and Ideals.. i don''t know... i just have my reservations about how far it really is noticed by the average consumer and how much is just the ''placebo effect'' of either a jeweler or paper telling them so... My opinion only.

In GIA before we got down to the brass tacks of crown and pavillion angles and the like the instructor simply told us for grading cut -- look at the stone and go with your gut feel for what the brilliance level is -- pure subjective eye-bling

OK, you are entitled to your opinion DBM - but from my experiance when we get a princess that sings and shouts, our customers tell us they get heaps of comments (even from friends who are outshone).

And we know from good quality non contentious research that the princess cuts that maxamize brightness - they are bad for showing enhanced color - i.e. they look a little less colored in say a J or K than they should. There are ways to tell which is which with an ASET scope - less blue for instance is better to make a stone face up with more color.

But my original question?

Date: 11/20/2006 1:08:33 AM
Author: DBM

Date: 11/19/2006 6:52:33 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 11/19/2006 5:48:06 PM
Author: DBM
IMO I agree with him that an IdealScope won''t help you and at a relatively small size of a .54 ct it''s kind of silly to deal in certificates. Try to view the stone in fluorescent light on a white piece of paper and ask if you can also loupe it. you should have some sense of ''bling'' to know what shouts out and what doesn''t... more importantly though whats the color and clarity?

DBM how far should the fluoro light be from the diamond?

How would you recomend checking out the cut with a fluorescent light?

 

[DBM]

I hear you. I just think there's a little bit of "the emperor has no clothes" when it comes to people talking about how ideal their cut is. If people get enough affirmation from a paper, or a salesman, or whatever they really can be swayed to see a VG cut as ideal. you don't think so?

While you can't check for Fire with the Fluoroscent light i don't see any problem in checking for brilliance both directly under a fluroscent light or just in the finger cracks of one's hand..... It goes without saying that you are far more qualified than myself in this field, so you'll have to excuse my ignorance.. but i'm not sure what you're driving at... please explain to me.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Sorry DBM - not making myself clear.

The cracks in the fingers is great.
I do have issues with those who use tweezers - the leakyest diamond perform great in tweezers and the fingers mimic the setting real well because some leakage can sho up as finger colored = not good.

But the fluoro light - can you describe the type?
Dealers twin desk mounted about 15 to 20 watt each tube?
Ceiling mounted fluoro''s?

And the white paper? Was that for color grading or cut / brightness.

As to fire assessment - that is really hard.
I bought 3 types of LED torches and lamps on the weekend to experiment with a method GIA claim you can use to assess fire. I really doubt there is a really objective way to finely discriminate between fire in diamonds. Where as brightness can be judged pretty well.

 

[Stoneferry]

Thanks for all of your feedback it''s been interesting. Why am I splitting hairs over the cut quality? In my opinion I''m only ever (hopefully) going to buy a diamond once, so I''d like to make sure the one I get is the best possible, for peace-of-mind. Diamonds are expensive and were certainly worth the homework. I cannot believe how knowledgeless some people are in this industry (with regard to ''experts'' here, rather than on this forum), and judging from what I''ve seen I am considering changing from my career in Information Technology to gemology.

 

[DBM]

yes i find you can really cut alot of the chase with customers by simply placing all the choices between their fingers, swaying the stones a little and taking it all in. It''s not a good sales technique but good for when you''re in a hurry

I was thinking desk mounted fluros.

White paper was for a color sense, sorry i wasn''t clear on that.

I was in the GIA class. We used that special Blue light (you know better than me what it''s called) for Fire and in all honesty i don''t think myself or anyone in the class really found it useful in gauging fire

As for Stone Ferry I''d just point out that having the "ideal cut" does not mean you got "the best as possible".. it all depends on what you want. Maybe a spreadier stone of 60 or 61 depth would give you a VG cut but a larger looking stone which you''d like.. or maybe instead of the paying the extra premuim money of an ideal cut you could use that towards gettting a higher color or clarity grade with a diamond that has only a Very Good cut... it''s in large part a matter of what your needs and senstiviites are to the 4 C''s (and the 5th of Cost ) -- thinking in terms of the "best" only because of cut IMO is a mistake somewhat. Peace.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 11/20/2006 9:25:18 AM
Author: DBM
yes i find you can really cut alot of the chase with customers by simply placing all the choices between their fingers, swaying the stones a little and taking it all in. It''s not a good sales technique but good for when you''re in a hurry it is actually a great technique - but be sure to use as many diferent lightings as possible - in dealers rooms I sometimes find myself in that llittle room - or a passage way because that is where the halogens are.

I was thinking desk mounted fluros. the desk mounted fluoro''s are worse than useless - especially when the background is white (skin is more neutral - and darker skin works even better) - try this - put any reasonable well cut round and a princess together on the white background and see which sparkles the most - then turn off the desk light and see which sparkles the most - I really mean try it DBM, and anyone else with desk flouro''s and diamonds

White paper was for a color sense, sorry i wasn''t clear on that.

I was in the GIA class. We used that special Blue light (you know better than me what it''s called) for Fire and in all honesty i don''t think myself or anyone in the class really found it useful in gauging fire
sad isnt it?
As for Stone Ferry I''d just point out that having the ''ideal cut'' does not mean you got ''the best as possible''.. it all depends on what you want. Maybe a spreadier stone of 60 or 61 depth would give you a VG cut but a larger looking stone which you''d like.. or maybe instead of the paying the extra premuim money of an ideal cut you could use that towards gettting a higher color or clarity grade with a diamond that has only a Very Good cut... it''s in large part a matter of what your needs and senstiviites are to the 4 C''s (and the 5th of Cost ) -- thinking in terms of the ''best'' only because of cut IMO is a mistake somewhat. Peace. with princess it is easily possible to select really grreat stones from most suppliers and their assortments without a premium - they are ''ideally cut'' but no one has named them that - and the ASET is the best way to find them.

 

[DBM]

Date: 11/20/2006 2:28:13 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

I was thinking desk mounted fluros. the desk mounted fluoro''s are worse than useless - especially when the background is white (skin is more neutral - and darker skin works even better) - try this - put any reasonable well cut round and a princess together on the white background and see which sparkles the most - then turn off the desk light and see which sparkles the most - I really mean try it DBM, and anyone else with desk flouro''s and diamonds

Very interesting indeed Gary. Thank you.

Daniel

 

[ChargerGrrl]

Date: 11/20/2006 4:04:18 AM
Author: Stoneferry
Thanks for all of your feedback it's been interesting. Why am I splitting hairs over the cut quality? In my opinion I'm only ever (hopefully) going to buy a diamond once, so I'd like to make sure the one I get is the best possible, for peace-of-mind. Diamonds are expensive and were certainly worth the homework. I cannot believe how knowledgeless some people are in this industry (with regard to 'experts' here, rather than on this forum), and judging from what I've seen I am considering changing from my career in Information Technology to gemology.

I'm a princess fan, and can tell you that the IS image of my stone helped seal the deal. It's a useful resource, and my thought is that you cannot be armed with enough info for such an important purchase.

And, I doubt that this will be the only diamond you'll buy your gal!

GOOD LUCK!