Evaluating an OEC? I have GIA numbers.

[IE_Princess]

Hi. I'm new to PS and new to learning about diamonds. I'm looking at an antique ring and these are the specs on the main stone; I'd appreciate any opinions and/or expert advice on reading the numbers. Thanks in advance!

7.38 - 7.52 x 4.31 mm
Carat Weight: 1.44 carat
Color Grade: J
Clarity Grade: VS1
Cut Grade: Very Good
PROPORTIONS

Depth: 57.8%
Table: 63%
Crown Angle: 34.0°
Crown Height: 12.5%
Pavilion Angle: 41.4°
Pavilion Depth: 43.5%
Star Length: 60%
Lower Half: 70%
Girdle: Extremely Thin to Thin (2.0%)
Culet: Small
FINISH

Polish: Good
Symmetry: Good
Fluorescence: None

I've been told that it is a later European cut, not a round brilliant as stated on the report. I haven't seen the ring/stone in person nor can I see the stone unmounted.

Here is the diagram of the inclusions/flaws:



Kimberly

 

[GemFever]

Usually the consensus here is that it is impossible to say anything worthwhile without photos.

Are the numbers correct -- depth is 57 and table is 63? Or are they reversed?

 

[JulieN]

D and T are correct, GIA precision for depth goes to tenth place, tables are reported in whole integers.

strange proportions...

 

[IE_Princess]

I believe the numbers are correct; it is a later Euro, most likely cut in the 1920's per Lang Antiques. There is only one head on shot of the stone, I'll try to grab it.

Thanks for answering.

 

[IE_Princess]

D and T are correct, GIA precision for depth goes to tenth place, tables are reported in whole integers.

strange proportions...

Strange for a Euro? Or strange for any diamond?

It seems so hard to choose a diamond when it is older and already set, especially as you don't know how to evaluate the value of the entire piece. I know this is priced high because it is from Lang's, which is why I really want to figure out as much as I can about the stone.

I appreciate the response.

 

[GemFever]

Though I don't know much about modern cuts, I'd say it's strange for any diamond. But especially for an old cut. Curious to see the pic!

 

[IE_Princess]

Close up of diamond:

 

[GemFever]

I personally would not pay that price for that diamond. Though the setting is gorgeous and dreamy.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Looks like a transitional or early modern brilliant. You would need to see it in person to judge, but it won't look distinctly like an old cut in real life. It will look like an MRB with non-ideal optics

 

[IE_Princess]

I personally would not pay that price for that diamond. Though the setting is gorgeous and dreamy.

That's the problem. I'm choosing a ring for an anniversary present and that is the first setting I've seen in four months that made my jaw drop. I started out concerned with the color and the almost invisible culet, and now I'm worried about the numbers even though I don't really know what they mean.

We're not new diamonds/new metal buyers, so I don't know where to go from here if this ring is a no-go. Options are:

1) Find a vintage setting for the 1 CT stone I wear currently, which is my grandmother's right hand diamond (MRB) from the 80s, set on a wide gold band for now, and probably not a great stone in the slightest, but I am planning to have the stone pulled and sent in in for a GIA report, in part because if we choose a replacement for this diamond I want to buy a matching stone and have earrings made.

2) Find a vintage piece that is a good value and makes me smile to either replace my current e-ring or wear as a RHR.

3) Set my current stone in a setting from Brilliant Earth (perhaps a tiara semi-mount custom made with sapphire accents to match my plat eternity band from them, or a halo)

4) See if I like the estate Van Craeynest e-ring and band that I ordered Saturday; if so, I could either keep that with its current .45 VS2 G RMB or move my stone onto it.

I'm in the middle of a huge mess with one of my other antique rings so I am rather wary of buying a vintage piece that isn't in tip-top shape.

I appreciate the responses!

 

[IE_Princess]

Looks like a transitional or early modern brilliant. You would need to see it in person to judge, but it won't look distinctly like an old cut in real life. It will look like an MRB with non-ideal optics

Thank you so much for explaining this to me! I really didn't think it looked like an old diamond in the photos and now I understand why.

 

[IE_Princess]

DH is still really interested in this ring. Can someone explain the numbers to me? Why would it perform poorly? Are the numbers more consistent with a transitional and/or early modern brilliant? Are those not considered good cuts?

Lang insists that it is a Euro, cut in the 1920s, and not transitional or early modern brilliant. They also say it is a gorgeous stone, but they are trying to sell it so what else would they say.

My only OEC is lovely but I know nothing about it other than it is near colorless (can't recall the grade, I think G) and VS1. It's close to .75 CT (appraisal and ring aren't in my possession at the moment and won't be for several weeks at least). I won't be pulling the stone to have it GIA graded as I don't want to risk the mounting.

Thanks.

 

[ericad]

It's impossible to really judge any old cut based on a pic or two. While I can't comment on another vendor's stone, I can say this:

1. Find one or more reputable vendors and tell them what you're looking for and what your budget is and see what pieces they recommend. Use the pics to help narrow down the selection - see what grabs you and don't over think it (often times a specific stone will jump out at you, no matter what the numbers say).
2. Once you find a stone/ring that you're interested in, assuming the seller has a good return policy, take a look at it in person. That's really the only way to judge. If it's not a love connection, send it back. You might only need to ship a piece once, or possibly 2 or 3 in order to find the right one, but it's worth the cost of shipping because evaluating old cuts in person is really important.
3. Looks like a tranny to me, based on the single image, but vendors use the term Transitional differently. This vendor may be classifying it as a later OEC. It's just semantics. But I don't think it looks like an early RB - looks like a later OEC/Transitional to me.

Good luck with finding a great old cut - welcome to the club!

 

[IE_Princess]

Thank you. We did talk last night about buying it knowing we can send it right back if it doesn't work for us. One problem we have right now is not having a jeweler in town that we feel we can trust (it's a long, upsetting, emotional story and we are still in the middle of it). Finding a knowledgable, trustworthy jeweler is on our list of things to do, and soon. Having such a bad experience with a jeweler who is supposed to be the best, most knowledgable, and most trusted in town has really shaken us and we don't know how to find someone we can trust.

I think you are right about it being a Transitional, and I can see that they are going to stick with "later OEC" because (in my limited experience) it commands more attention and a better price.

More to think about.

It's impossible to really judge any old cut based on a pic or two. While I can't comment on another vendor's stone, I can say this:

1. Find one or more reputable vendors and tell them what you're looking for and what your budget is and see what pieces they recommend. Use the pics to help narrow down the selection - see what grabs you and don't over think it (often times a specific stone will jump out at you, no matter what the numbers say).
2. Once you find a stone/ring that you're interested in, assuming the seller has a good return policy, take a look at it in person. That's really the only way to judge. If it's not a love connection, send it back. You might only need to ship a piece once, or possibly 2 or 3 in order to find the right one, but it's worth the cost of shipping because evaluating old cuts in person is really important.
3. Looks like a tranny to me, based on the single image, but vendors use the term Transitional differently. This vendor may be classifying it as a later OEC. It's just semantics. But I don't think it looks like an early RB - looks like a later OEC/Transitional to me.

Good luck with finding a great old cut - welcome to the club!

 

[Dreamer_D]

The numbers can tell you a lot about how a modern RB will perform. In fact, I woud buy an MRB based only on the lab report. But with old cuts and other fancies the numbers don't really tell you much at all. You can't really judge much about how it will perform other than having a sense of its flavour. This particular stone will likely be quite bright but may not have much fire based on the proportions. It may or may not have some leakage under the table area, but I am betting that it does have some leakage. It will not look like an ideally cut MRB. But it also will not look like a classic OEC, which would have a higher crown and smaller table. It also won't look like my stone, which has similarly long lower halves but a smaller table and higher crown.

There are no set numbers to determine if something is a transitional or an early modern brilliant. So you cannot tell that way.

And the names are subjective. So it does not matter at all if Lang says its a later Euro and others call it something else. I would personally not apply the laber European Cut to this diamond, but that is me and Lang obviously disagrees. I think you are 100% correct that they prefer the label that is more valuable.

They cannot know it was cut in the 1920s, I would think it was cut much later even if the mount is from the 1920s. But even then we cannot tell.

None of these distinctions matter to the price anyways . Lang will ask what it asks. They are not known to negotiate. In the end, actually, none of these distinctions matter one little bit in this case!!

What are you hoping to gain from asking about this? Are you wanting to determine fair value? Or determine if its well cut? For value, I can promise its priced high for the retail market because that is what Lang does, and I also think a good portion of the value is the mount because its not a style of old cut that is widely saught -- if the diamond were loose I don't think it would fly off the shelves. As for cut, it might be quite bright and bold and you may like it, you need to see it to know. But as I said, its not one of the popular makes. But it still might appeal to you. You have to see it.

As for not having a local jeweler, I think with Lang as the seller its not as big a deal. if it was me I would order it and see it and if I loved it I would send it to Dave Atlas for an appraisal. Make sure the return policy allows time for all this shipping.

 

[backwardsandinheels]

"I'm choosing a ring for an anniversary present and that is the first setting I've seen in four months that made my jaw drop."

Listen to your gut.

"I started out concerned with the color and the almost invisible culet, and now I'm worried about the numbers even though I don't really know what they mean."

Does the color bother you or do you think it looks nice? Definitely get it in person if you can to be sure. A culet is to be expected in older cuts, it's not a bad thing, and it's very small. Do you like it or does it bother you?

"Find a vintage piece that is a good value and makes me smile to either replace my current e-ring or wear as a RHR."

How do you feel about it? Again, listen to your gut.

"See if I like the estate Van Craeynest e-ring and band that I ordered Saturday; if so, I could either keep that with its current .45 VS2 G RMB or move my stone onto it."

See how you like this when it comes.

Also, Lang's is a great place. I've bought from there and Suzanne is like an elder stateswoman of fine jewelry. I would trust her judgement. Yes, they want to sell, but they wouldn't risk their fine reputation just to sell. Ask lots of hard questions of them, maybe buy a loupe, etc. It depends on how much of a cut nut you are. If you and your hubby just love it for what it is, go for it. You're paying retail, yes, but maybe you don't have the time/willingness to look endlessly for a stone and then a gorgeous vintage setting for it. It's not an out of control price or a bargain deal. Everything is more expensive in San Francisco as in any big city. You could get on their Christmas card list and you could get 10% off if you're willing to wait...if it's still there...I would guess Lang's probably polished the setting, and the rest is original. It looks very nice on you. That setting alone is easily $2000 to $3000. I'd listen to the wise ericad above. Good luck!

 

[backwardsandinheels]

Well, it looked nice on the hand at Lang's!

 

[IE_Princess]

To me, the mount is just lovely, and that is what caught my eye before I started trying to evaluate the stone. At the same time, I don't want to spend that much money if it is a poorly performing diamond. I'm understanding now that these older diamonds really do need to be seen in person, so I appreciate the feedback.

I'm asking a lot of questions because I don't want us to get burned. It's one thing to pay a premium for a unique piece; it's another to pay a highly inflated price for a diamond that doesn't deserve it. That is what I am trying to figure out -- do the combination of center stone and mounting command that price, knowing that we'd be paying a premium to get it from Lang?

I hadn't expected to be discussing getting this ring at all; it definitely pushes past what we had thought we'd spend on an anniversary gift. I sent the link to DH because I love the setting and was hoping we could find something similar at a less expensive price, and he is the one who started to pursue it.

I would need to insure it for the period of time that it is in my possession and being sent for an independent appraisal, yes? Lang only gives 10 days for a return, so we'd have to negotiate that. Thank you for giving me the name of someone we can use and trust, if it comes to that.

Again, thanks.

What are you hoping to gain from asking about this? Are you wanting to determine fair value? Or determine if its well cut? For value, I can promise its priced high for the retail market because that is what Lang does, and I also think a good portion of the value is the mount because its not a style of old cut that is widely saught -- if the diamond were loose I don't think it would fly off the shelves. As for cut, it might be quite bright and bold and you may like it, you need to see it to know. But as I said, its not one of the popular makes. But it still might appeal to you. You have to see it.

As for not having a local jeweler, I think with Lang as the seller its not as big a deal. if it was me I would order it and see it and if I loved it I would send it to Dave Atlas for an appraisal. Make sure the return policy allows time for all this shipping.

 

[JulieN]

Have Lang send it to your appraiser directly, who should have their own insurance.

 

[IE_Princess]

DH wants to listen to my gut; in his mind when I sent it to him he felt that I was saying I had found "my" ring.

I think I actually prefer a larger culet, if that makes sense. I don't know about the color; that I need to see in person. I don't really think of myself as someone who has to have a D/E/F stone so much as someone who loves antique stones and mounts. I mean, we could pursue a new loose stone with a nice reproduction setting and get a much better stone than what is in that ring, but I don't think I'd be happy doing that. I love that older rings have a history. I love that diamonds used to be 100% hand cut and had an artistry to them. I'm an antique/vintage things person -- vintage sewing machine, 87 year old house, Pyrex collector, heck, I even collect vintage appliances.

I ordered the VC ring and band to be my back-up set since I wouldn't be likely to wear the Lang piece traveling or even to places like the fair, etc. If we replace my current e-ring my diamond (from my grandmother, but not an antique stone) will me matched and set into earrings.

I really appreciate your comments about Lang and about choosing to go with something I love vs. searching endlessly. I'd really like to take a quick flight up there but airfares aren't great right now.

"I'm choosing a ring for an anniversary present and that is the first setting I've seen in four months that made my jaw drop."

Listen to your gut.

"I started out concerned with the color and the almost invisible culet, and now I'm worried about the numbers even though I don't really know what they mean."

Does the color bother you or do you think it looks nice? Definitely get it in person if you can to be sure. A culet is to be expected in older cuts, it's not a bad thing, and it's very small. Do you like it or does it bother you?

"Find a vintage piece that is a good value and makes me smile to either replace my current e-ring or wear as a RHR."

How do you feel about it? Again, listen to your gut.

"See if I like the estate Van Craeynest e-ring and band that I ordered Saturday; if so, I could either keep that with its current .45 VS2 G RMB or move my stone onto it."

See how you like this when it comes.

Also, Lang's is a great place. I've bought from there and Suzanne is like an elder stateswoman of fine jewelry. I would trust her judgement. Yes, they want to sell, but they wouldn't risk their fine reputation just to sell. Ask lots of hard questions of them, maybe buy a loupe, etc. It depends on how much of a cut nut you are. If you and your hubby just love it for what it is, go for it. You're paying retail, yes, but maybe you don't have the time/willingness to look endlessly for a stone and then a gorgeous vintage setting for it. It's not an out of control price or a bargain deal. Everything is more expensive in San Francisco as in any big city. You could get on their Christmas card list and you could get 10% off if you're willing to wait...if it's still there...I would guess Lang's probably polished the setting, and the rest is original. It looks very nice on you. That setting alone is easily $2000 to $3000. I'd listen to the wise ericad above. Good luck!

 

[backwardsandinheels]

You sound like you're figuring it out. Check out Jewels by Erica Grace(jbeg.com), georgianjewelry.com, oldworlddiamonds.com-these are well-respected old stone vendors here.

 

[Dreamer_D]

The only reason I did not suggest sending it to the appraiser first is because I think your opinion about the diamond matters more than the appraisers, and they will not be able to tell you if its beautiful or not.

I consider Langs to be trustworthy, for what its worth.

 

[IE_Princess]

Here's another question/thought:

My sons inherited a part of a collection of old brass train locomotives. My family always thought that these engines were worth thousands of dollars each and my sister even got mad that four grandsons split the inheritance and her son (born after my grandfather's death) didn't get any.

Doing research, DH found that the trains sell for far less than what everyone thought they were worth. For each locomotive there might be just a couple of buyers who want exactly what someone else has -- manufacturer, paint scheme/rail line, etc. On ebay a loco might sell for a couple of hundred bucks. At a train show with exactly the right buyer it *might* fetch closer to a grand if everything lines up for that particular buyer, who of course is also seeing it in person. Also, since new manufacturers are still producing locos, with better detail, performance etc. you have to find the person who wants the loco with history. (We haven't sold any -- we love the old trains.)

How likely is it that I will ever find this setting (or something similar) again? I've been looking obsessively for months (after looking causally for a couple of years) and haven't seen anything like it. Is it possible that this is a case of specific setting / specific buyer? Should I weight the setting so highly?

 

[two_little_birds]

My first thought after viewing the close-up, what is going on in the center of the diamond? Is looks "mushy" for lack of a better word.

 

[IE_Princess]

Thank you, that does make sense.

I also get the sense that Lang's is trustworthy; they have a lot to lose if they are not. After explaining to them about DH being sold a platinum ring that ended up being mostly not platinum (discovered later -- we were very inexperienced buyers) it was quickly pointed out to me that part of the shank (very lower portion visible in the photos) is white gold and that it would be replaced with platinum at time of sale.

The only reason I did not suggest sending it to the appraiser first is because I think your opinion about the diamond matters more than the appraisers, and they will not be able to tell you if its beautiful or not.

I consider Langs to be trustworthy, for what its worth.

 

[GemFever]

I usually try to dance around direct opinions because they're not always helpful. However, I'll come out and say that I would not buy this ring because of the center stone. An old cut that is shallow and has a 63% table? Could it really work somehow? Maybe it's a case of one stone defying all odds and still looking nice despite really strange proportions. But from the pics, I'm not convinced.

I do see the dilemma about the perfect setting though. That makes it a tough decision. But is the setting that hard to find, if one were really to look diligently?

Anyway, that's just my opinion. It may be worth buying the ring to see it for yourself, as others have said. Good luck with this decision!

 

[IE_Princess]

I appreciate your directness. Do you think someone may have recut the stone to get the 63% table so it would look larger, sacrificing performance?

I try not to believe that there is any one perfect thing -- ring, house, car, etc. I'm pretty sure I could look at 100 antique rings (in person) and be happy with 5 - 10 of them, and then choose the best based on factors other than whether or not I love it. I am rather enamored with that setting but it's not like I can't live without it. I know that I can live without all of it; I actually suggested to DH that we put the money toward an amazing trip or redoing or backyard, but that is a no-go with him. To him a 25th wedding anniversary requires an amazing ring.

I also know that there are some wonderful rings at lower price points, which means I could have more than one, lol.

I usually try to dance around direct opinions because they're not always helpful. However, I'll come out and say that I would not buy this ring because of the center stone. An old cut that is shallow and has a 63% table? Could it really work somehow? Maybe it's a case of one stone defying all odds and still looking nice despite really strange proportions. But from the pics, I'm not convinced.

I do see the dilemma about the perfect setting though. That makes it a tough decision. But is the setting that hard to find, if one were really to look diligently?

Anyway, that's just my opinion. It may be worth buying the ring to see it for yourself, as others have said. Good luck with this decision!

 

[GemFever]

I appreciate your directness. Do you think someone may have recut the stone to get the 63% table so it would look larger, sacrificing performance?

I'm trying to visualize... once the stone is cut, is it possible to re-cut it in order to make it look larger... I can't imagine how that would be done, since the dimensions of the widest point are already established... I think any further re-cut would make it look smaller. Maybe at the very beginning this stone was cut to maximize spread over performance, I'm not sure.

Maybe you've already mentioned, but how much time do you have to search before your 25th anniversary? Congrats on that, btw! And I like how your husband thinks!

 

[IE_Princess]

Maybe you've already mentioned, but how much time do you have to search before your 25th anniversary? Congrats on that, btw! And I like how your husband thinks!

Thank you! Our anniversary is in August, so we have time, but I've already been obsessing since January (and looking casually at rings for a year before that). I think he'd like to be done with the choosing and put the ring in a safe deposit box until August. He absolutely doesn't want to choose the ring on his own, even though he did well five years ago. Here is that ring, a grabbed screen shot save (we can't find any good hand shots, I think the originals were on his phone and got lost some how). It's been at the jewelers since January and the shank was destroyed so it doesn't look quite the same any longer.

 

[GemFever]

Pretty ring!

I'd say give your search a couple more months. You could start a thread here in Rocky Talky or over in Antique and Vintage and ask people to help you in your search (I would prefer Antique & Vintage because that's the style you're looking for, and threads don't get buried as quickly there). If you are going to spend such a considerable amount of money, wouldn't you want to get the most beautiful piece you can? That's my thinking. Of course, if you're completely exhausted from searching, that's another thing. Or if you're completely in love with the Lang ring.