Engagment Diamond

[ALBAN-METHODIOS]

I need some help. I am looking at an EGL USA .58 ct D SI1 very good cut hearts and arrows diamond for $1,935 at a store. The diamond looks pretty good but I am wondering if I can get a better stone for my money. I want a stone that doesn't show yellow and is eye clean. Based on reading here I need to stay above H in color and SI1/SI2 should be ok on clarity. I want to keep the stone close or under $2,000. Anyone have any more advice for me?

 

[Gypsy]

Yes, I have advice. Do not buy an EGL stone. Stick to GIA or AGS only. I will look for a couple stones for you.

 

[Gypsy]

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/H-SI1-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond-1493131.asp Scores .6 on the HCA. Ask if eyeclean from all distances from the face up. If it is, ask for an Idealscope image.

 

[Gypsy]

Also, read this: https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-cut and this https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-crown-and-pavilion and this https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/firescope-idealscope and this https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/holloway-cut-advisor

 

[ALBAN-METHODIOS]

I have been looking at those pages as I've been thinking about it. If I get a stone through the store I am ok with EGL USA since I can look at in person and based on the study below EGL USA isn't far off on most of the grading and considerably cheaper.
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamond-grading/discussions

I think I can get a better deal online (Not buying EGL USA online) on a GIA or AGS stone but I am worried about getting the wrong stone.

 

[Gypsy]

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/winner-winner-yup-got-a-chicken-dinner.176840/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/winner-winner-yup-got-a-chicken-dinner.176840/[/URL] Please read this person's journey, from their first stone that they post (which they think is a winner) to the second stone that they bought based on forum expert advice and their conclusions and their observations based on comparing those stones.


That said, I know you think that you've done your research and that you know that you would be okay with EGL. I promise you, based on 8 years of experience on this board and over 22,000 posts helping people that if you still think that EGL is any kind of a 'value' after spending some REAL time with us, I will support your purchase. That said, in all my time here no one has EVER walked away with an EGL graded round brilliant as a better value after they have spent time really understanding how grading works. NEVER. I mean that.

EGL does not have the standard needed to judge cut. Cut is what makes diamonds perform and return light. Light return is the entire point of buying a diamond. What you think is a 'very good' cut on the EGL scale is really nothing of the sort and is really a poorly cut diamond. You are spending 2k on something, you should get the best value for your money. EGL is false economy and is a poor value. Period. There are no exceptions. You do not have the single EGL stone on the face of this planet that is a better value than GIA offers.

EGL stones on this board have come back as much as 5 color grades off. We have actually had people stubborn enough that they believed their EGL purchase was so good that to prove us WRONG they have submitted the diamond to AGS or GIA . We were not proven wrong. They were.

EGL does pre-grading. Has no incentive to accurately grade diamonds. And has false cut standards that pass poorly cut diamonds off as well cut ones.

I assumed you wanted real honest advice when you posted asking for help. If you don't want real, honest advice: Buy your EGL stone. But if you come on here and ask for advice. Listen to it. Instead of being stubborn and thinking that a weeks worth of research has made you an expert. It hasn't. Otherwise you wouldn't even consider your EGL stone a possibility.

 

[ALBAN-METHODIOS]

I do want real advice. However, I also what to understand why in the forums I see EGL is the worst and yet there is an article on price scope saying EGL USA is not bad and actually had the best deals compared to GIA and AGS. This gives me to widely different pieces of advice that say either way is fine. I am trying to reconcile the advice so that I am informed. I am also concerned as to why pricescope keeps that article up if it is misleading. I want to be informed and I have seen different opinions on this and other forums. Also, is there a difference between EGL USA and the other EGLs and do you have recent experience working with EGL USA.

 

[Gypsy]

I think I can get a better deal online (Not buying EGL USA online) on a GIA or AGS stone but I am worried about getting the wrong stone.

Okay. What is the point of buying a diamond?
Diamonds are stones that are cut and polished to be beautiful. To return light.
So... you want the largest, whitest stone for your budget with the best light return. Okay.

Well that H I posted for you above is a great stone. Put it on hold. Have the gemologist check it for being eyeclean and get an idealscope image. If it's a great performer, buy it. Or buy any of the other stones we recommend.

THEN, within the return policy of the vendor you purchased from you can walk around with the stone and take it to local jewelers and see if you can find anything better. If you can't... then you keep it. If you can, then you return it for a full refund.

No stress. Just logic.

Here is another option:
http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2650808.htm 15 bucks overbudget for PS wire price

 

[Gypsy]

I do want real advice. However, I also what to understand why in the forums I see EGL is the worst and yet there is an article on price scope saying EGL USA is not bad and actually had the best deals compared to GIA and AGS. This gives me to widely different pieces of advice that say either way is fine. I am trying to reconcile the advice so that I am informed. I am also concerned as to why pricescope keeps that article up if it is misleading. I want to be informed and I have seen different opinions on this and other forums. Also, is there a difference between EGL USA and the other EGLs and do you have recent experience working with EGL USA.

Which article? I will post a thread about it and discuss it with other members and you can see what they say.


[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/is-it-really-true-gia-ags-compared-to-egl.159873/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/is-it-really-true-gia-ags-compared-to-egl.159873/[/URL] This post will help you though. Make sure you note the people who are posting. Many of them are long time (really long time) professionals with years of industry experience behind them.

 

[ALBAN-METHODIOS]

Thanks for the help. I think that (due to the experts on here) that I can get a better stone online. I am not really comfortable with the stones in the store or the design process for the ring. I actually like the first stone you posted. I had looked at it before but couldn't tell if it was a good buy. Are light colored inclusions better than dark? Thanks very much for your help.

 

[Gypsy]

Thanks for the help. I think that (due to the experts on here) that I can get a better stone online. I am not really comfortable with the stones in the store or the design process for the ring. I actually like the first stone you posted. I had looked at it before but couldn't tell if it was a good buy. Are light colored inclusions better than dark? Thanks very much for your help.

Better is subjective. I personally don't worry about the color of inclusions so much as I do 1) if they pose durability concerns (which feathers that break the surface in the SI range can have) or B) if they are visible or if they are well masked. That said, gray inclusions have a better chance of being masked than black ones.

There are no feathers in this diamond so it's basically the crystal and the twinning wisps. I think it has a good chance of being eyelcean, but wouldn't be able to tell you more without the stone in front of me: which is why I advised to have the gemologist look at it for you and tell you what they see.

As for 'good buy'... JA has very fair pricing and a 60 day return policy. So-- if you are talking about getting what you pay for and not getting ripped off, they are a good bet for that.

What design process are you worried about? I can see if I can help you understand that better and see what I can recommend there as well. What is your setting budget and what do you/your lady want for the budget?

 

[ALBAN-METHODIOS]

Which article? I will post a thread about it and discuss it with other members and you can see what they say.

The article
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamond-grading/survey-method

However the discussion you posted stated that this was 2004 so it is out of date. Pricescope either needs to commission a new study, edit the pages to show it is out of date or remove the information.

I am looking at going through two local jewelers to make a white gold ring. It will have two rubies flanking the center stone and bead set diamonds down the side. The sides will taper to the top and the three center stones will have a trellis when viewed from the side. With one of the jewelery stores, lets call them "A", the designer is fairly young and simply does not make me confident that she will actually accomplish what I want. This came when we requested GIA or AGS stone and possibly EGL USA IF the stone is good. She showed us an EGL "H" that was really around an "L".

I have worked with the other jeweler "B" before to make a custom set of earrings that I thought were great. Their prices are a little high ~$2,200 for the setting with lab rubies. The "A" comes in at $1,800. I want to stick with local so I can work closer with the designer. I want to look at the wax designs without paying the shipping.

 

[TitanCi]

I do want real advice. However, I also what to understand why in the forums I see EGL is the worst and yet there is an article on price scope saying EGL USA is not bad and actually had the best deals compared to GIA and AGS. This gives me to widely different pieces of advice that say either way is fine. I am trying to reconcile the advice so that I am informed. I am also concerned as to why pricescope keeps that article up if it is misleading. I want to be informed and I have seen different opinions on this and other forums. Also, is there a difference between EGL USA and the other EGLs and do you have recent experience working with EGL USA.

Stones are sold for what they're worth. There is no deal with EGL, they're sold inexpensively for a reason. Although Egl-USA is better than the Euro counterpart, they are not nearly up to par with grading standards like the AGS or GIA.

Think of it this way: you can buy two used cars that are the "same" (let's say Honda). You can buy from Clown Bob's Used Auto Emporium or a similar vehicle that's CPO'ed from Honda. Which would you rather buy? Both are qualified to sell cars, but one is the authority on that particular car.

If a diamond could be submitted to GIA or AGS, then it should be submitted to them for grading. If not, well then I guess there's EGL...

 

[Gypsy]

I am looking at going through two local jewelers to make a white gold ring. It will have two rubies flanking the center stone and bead set diamonds down the side. The sides will taper to the top and the three center stones will have a trellis when viewed from the side. With one of the jewelery stores, lets call them "A", the designer is fairly young and simply does not make me confident that she will actually accomplish what I want. This came when we requested GIA or AGS stone and possibly EGL USA IF the stone is good. She showed us an EGL "H" that was really around an "L".

I have worked with the other jeweler "B" before to make a custom set of earrings that I thought were great. Their prices are a little high ~$2,200 for the setting with lab rubies. The "A" comes in at $1,800. I want to stick with local so I can work closer with the designer. I want to look at the wax designs without paying the shipping.

Okay, this makes sense to me. Where are you located (what city and state). Can you do a BBB/yelp/Jewelers Association check on both jewelers? Also what are both jewelers policies related to re-work if the item isn't up to what you were promised? And what is each jeweler's policy on manufacturing defects such as porosity (also do they do the casting in house or send it to a casting house for white gold). And what alloys to they like to work with. And what is the total carat weight each is thinking of for the rubies and for the pave? What is the color and clarity of the melee stones, and what is the cut quality of the stones?

I think if you start asking these questions, you'll get a better idea in your mind of who is more competent. I have a feeling that the more expensive jeweler will be able to give you answers fairly quickly, and the other will try to dance around a bit. Also checking with all three sources (yelp, Jewelers Association and BBB) will get you closer to understanding other's experiences. Keep in mind most people that buy jewelry are novices and so yelp reviews for jewelers are often inflated. What you want to look for is reviews about custom work and about repairs and about problems and how they were handled.

When I think about what you want, and how much it should cost in my mind I'm at the 2,200 range for a good CAD version of this. And 400 is not a big difference, to me, if it means getting a better product and having confidence.

 

[Gypsy]

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/is-this-article-misleading.177109/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/is-this-article-misleading.177109/[/URL] I posted the article for comment. So far the responses are very interesting.

 

[ALBAN-METHODIOS]

What you have said is spot on with my discomfort with the jeweler A (the less expensive). When I ask questions I feel that she doesn't quite have the right answer or she is simply rehashing what she has been told. I took one of the diamonds that she was trying to sell me and tried to put it into the HCA tool. The diamond failed the tool, gave me an error and wouldn't even run the stone. She asked what I was doing and when I told her running a tool to look at the "sparkle, light return, or some other thing" she responded with well your eyes are a good tool for that. Things like that as well as the stone (hard yellow "H") that she showed us and not listening just drove us up the wall. "A" is the only one in town that has the CADs but "B" will redo wax models if needed for no charge.

Jeweler "B" has been around the town for a long time and did an excellent job on the custom earrings I purchased. I feel quite comfortable with them and I have many people that I work with that personally know the owners or have had great experiences working with them. I am waiting to see what stones "B" brings in before I stick with buying stones online because I want to support "B" if reasonable but I know they will not have a problem with me bringing in my own stones. I know for a fact that "B" will repair any manufacture defects for free and will try and work with me if I have a problem with the design after casting (I hope this doesn't happen).

The big problem with "A" is the designer is new/young. I think everyone else in the process has been working there for sometime and has a better understanding of the trade. I am trying to give her the benefit of the doubt but this is a lot of money for me to put down while still in school and we really want the right ring.

I don't want to post where I live because it will be extremely easy to deduce the jewelers that I am talking about (smaller town) and I do not feel that ether deserves a bad review. "B" has almost all good reviews online but the pool size is very small (several friends have first hand experience). "A" has no credible reviews that I could find.

I am also interested in the thread that you created. Looks like some good discussion coming out. I felt that the article read as EGL -USA stones could be found for a good deal if the consumer was extremely careful and willing to wait.

 

[BeachGirlG]

I know this is NOT what you were asking, but have you thought about adding the $2,000 budget for the ring to the $2,000 budget for the diamond and getting a bigger diamond?
I know that I would be disappointed if I found out that my boyfriend spent half of a total $4,000 budget on the ring...I would rather have a bigger diamond in a simple ring. I could always change the setting later.
I would also consider what size ring she wears. A 0.60CT will look very small on a size 6 or 7 finger.

 

[TitanCi]

totally lost with what happened in the thread... I think you must have added something that wasn't there initially, but I'm glad Gypsy got yer back and got things figured out with you!

 

[Gypsy]

Yes, I think you can buy an EGL stone if you are careful and diligent. But not on your budget. With your budget 200 or even 100 bucks is a lot of money and is the difference between color grades. And that's the cost of the appraisal you need to make sure your EGL stone isn't the one that is 5 grades off. EGL is best for: some fancy shapes and antique diamonds-- and only with a great appraisal. And with round brilliants they really aren't a good value, generally, but if you do find one that might be -- again you need a great appraisal. With a budget of 2000 it doesn't make sense to buy an 1800 EGL stone for the savings when you have to pay for the appraisal. You should just buy the 2000 GIA stone with the report you can rely on.

Good independent appraisals aren't cheap. And they are worth the money. But they make little sense with small budgets when all you have to do is buy a GIA stone instead.

Hand carved waxes are fine. Hunt Country is one vendor on here that people have used that specialize in this style. There have been a few issues with their work, but have always been good about fixing the issue or giving a refund. If your place B is the same way, then I see now reason not to use them. Newer, updated technology isn't always better. And I've seen some pretty awful CAD products. Don't feel guilty for not giving the new place a chance. An engagement ring is not the project you want to take risks on. Later on, you can use them for a pendant or something else-- if they continue to put out good work.

Here's a thread I started after a rash of particularly bad CAD projects were posted here: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/custom-jewelry-work-cad-and-cast-psa.175834/#post-3202426#p3202426']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/custom-jewelry-work-cad-and-cast-psa.175834/#post-3202426#p3202426[/URL]

 

[snoopkat]

EGL is best for: some fancy shapes and antique diamonds-- and only with a great appraisal.

Sorry for the thread jack but Gypsy you're just the person I'm looking for to answer a question I've had on my mind for several weeks now. I've heard alot about JbEG and decided to have a sticky beak at their site. Saw a few pieces that were quite stunning and noticed that ALL their diamonds are EGL graded. Every prosumer has always advised against buying EGL stones because of the soft grading and you don't really know what you're getting etc etc. So my question, why is it ok to buy an EGL vintage stone? Most of the stones on JbEG seem to either be low colour or low clarity and yet I've read so many rave reviews about JbEG, I'm confused Didn't they have colourless stones with high clarity back in the olden days?

 

[ALBAN-METHODIOS]

I know this is NOT what you were asking, but have you thought about adding the $2,000 budget for the ring to the $2,000 budget for the diamond and getting a bigger diamond?
I know that I would be disappointed if I found out that my boyfriend spent half of a total $4,000 budget on the ring...I would rather have a bigger diamond in a simple ring. I could always change the setting later.
I would also consider what size ring she wears. A 0.60CT will look very small on a size 6 or 7 finger.

Actually this is what she picked out. I had the same thought and we talked about getting the larger diamond with a simple band and later using the metal from the band with the diamond to make the above ring. We are only doing one ring, so no wedding band. The problem with that was that method, for us, is it assumes that I will have saved up enough money to make the new ring and have a decent wedding budget (we want to pay for it ourselves). The .6ct diamond actually look pretty large due to the smaller rubies next to it and the tapper of the ring. We looked at one in store and the saleswoman was kind enough to color the side diamonds red with a sharpy and the center CZ (diamond place holder) really popped and looked much larger than it actually was.

 

[ALBAN-METHODIOS]

I have a question about getting the diamond appraised. If I get the stone from James Allen, Whiteflash, or Brian Gaven I should still get the stone appraised correct? I also need to get the ring appraised as well so I can insure it. Should I appraise them separately, ie the stone and then the stone with the ring or simply appraise them as one unit. Anyone know how expensive appraisals are?

 

[Gypsy]

You don't need to have the diamond appraised if it's got a GIA or AGS certificate. It's worth what you pay for it. So you insure it with your sales receipt and with a note from your setting jeweler that you've contracted for a custom setting and that it's on it's way (with an estimated cost for the setting-- again, what you paid for it). Jewelers Mutual will then cover the ring. Once it is done, you should do a full appraisal, an independent one is best. Not all appraisers are equal as there little regulation or standardization for them, so just about any shmuck can call themselves an appraiser. SO you have to be careful who you get. https://www.pricescope.com/appraisers is a list of some appraisers in the US, hopefully there will be one near you. Appraisals, good ones, can cost anywhere from 80ish to 150ish. It really depends on what the appraiser costs. Be careful of 'feel good' appraisals that place the price of your piece more than 25% over what you paid for it. That's not a good thing, it just means you pay too much for your insurance based on an inflated appraisal.

 

[Gypsy]

EGL is best for: some fancy shapes and antique diamonds-- and only with a great appraisal.

Sorry for the thread jack but Gypsy you're just the person I'm looking for to answer a question I've had on my mind for several weeks now. I've heard alot about JbEG and decided to have a sticky beak at their site. Saw a few pieces that were quite stunning and noticed that ALL their diamonds are EGL graded. Every prosumer has always advised against buying EGL stones because of the soft grading and you don't really know what you're getting etc etc. So my question, why is it ok to buy an EGL vintage stone? Most of the stones on JbEG seem to either be low colour or low clarity and yet I've read so many rave reviews about JbEG, I'm confused Didn't they have colourless stones with high clarity back in the olden days?

You are stuck with EGL reports for old cuts because that's what the industry standard is. I don't like it, but it's just the way those stones are graded. JBEG will send any stone you want over to Dave for a full appraisal, with GIA standard color evaluation if you ask them. It's one of the services they provide for peace of mind.

As for color and clarity. High color old cuts were routinely re-cut into round brilliants, and still are today. They used to fetch more per carat that way, it's only this last year that the rap allowed for old cuts to have the same pricing as round brillants. So many of the old cuts available are lower colors that weren't 'worth' recutting. As to clarity, many old cuts have small chips at the girdle or abraded facets from wear, and many were not cut with decent girdles (it was just the cut standard, no girdle) so the clarity grade is lowered due to these characteristics. You can have them repolished and have a girdle put on them if you wish. I've had it done to several old cuts myself. In one case my diamond went in with abraded facets, no girdle, and a chip and an SI2 clarity rating, and it came back with only 1 point of weight loss and a VS clarity rating plus it was safe to set in anyway because it now had a safe girdle.

If you have any more questions, just start a thread of your own and I'll be able to answer you as will the many other old cut savvy PSers on here.

 

[ALBAN-METHODIOS]

You don't need to have the diamond appraised if it's got a GIA or AGS certificate. It's worth what you pay for it. So you insure it with your sales receipt and with a note from your setting jeweler that you've contracted for a custom setting and that it's on it's way (with an estimated cost for the setting-- again, what you paid for it). Jewelers Mutual will then cover the ring. Once it is done, you should do a full appraisal, an independent one is best. Not all appraisers are equal as there little regulation or standardization for them, so just about any shmuck can call themselves an appraiser. SO you have to be careful who you get. https://www.pricescope.com/appraisers is a list of some appraisers in the US, hopefully there will be one near you. Appraisals, good ones, can cost anywhere from 80ish to 150ish. It really depends on what the appraiser costs. Be careful of 'feel good' appraisals that place the price of your piece more than 25% over what you paid for it. That's not a good thing, it just means you pay too much for your insurance based on an inflated appraisal.

Ok that makes sense. I looked at that and the only appraiser listed is 2hrs away from me. I wanted your opinion on this stone http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/F-SI1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1498714.asp. We almost bought it tonight because it looked very good. I emailed James Allen and asked them to place it on hold so I can speak with their expert before I buy it.

 

[Gypsy]

You don't need to have the diamond appraised if it's got a GIA or AGS certificate. It's worth what you pay for it. So you insure it with your sales receipt and with a note from your setting jeweler that you've contracted for a custom setting and that it's on it's way (with an estimated cost for the setting-- again, what you paid for it). Jewelers Mutual will then cover the ring. Once it is done, you should do a full appraisal, an independent one is best. Not all appraisers are equal as there little regulation or standardization for them, so just about any shmuck can call themselves an appraiser. SO you have to be careful who you get. https://www.pricescope.com/appraisers is a list of some appraisers in the US, hopefully there will be one near you. Appraisals, good ones, can cost anywhere from 80ish to 150ish. It really depends on what the appraiser costs. Be careful of 'feel good' appraisals that place the price of your piece more than 25% over what you paid for it. That's not a good thing, it just means you pay too much for your insurance based on an inflated appraisal.

Ok that makes sense. I looked at that and the only appraiser listed is 2hrs away from me. I wanted your opinion on this stone http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/F-SI1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1498714.asp. We almost bought it tonight because it looked very good. I emailed James Allen and asked them to place it on hold so I can speak with their expert before I buy it.

Just get an idealscope and find out if it's eyeclean. Scores well on the HCA. Post the idealscope for us if you don't know how to read one (or look up how to read one). I think it has potential.

 

[ALBAN-METHODIOS]

I already have requested the ideal scope. I will post it here because I think I know how to read it but I have looked at enough specialized image types to know that I want an expert to second guess my call. An expert is always going to see some information that I am going to miss. I also just found this stone. Its cut quality is down a bit (polish and sym only very goods) and it has some florescence.
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/E-SI1-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond-1501929.asp And the HCA tool just told me not to buy it. Once I started looking at the numbers I could see why though. Strange how a GIA excellent can still be a poor preformer if the ratios between good characteristics are bad.

 

[ALBAN-METHODIOS]

Anyone have any thoughts about these stones? They all pass the HCA tool. I know that I need to have them checked to make sure they are eye clean and get the ideal scope image.

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/G-SI1-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond-1503150.asp
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/F-VS2-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond-1446232.asp
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/E-SI2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1493044.asp

 

[Gypsy]

Anyone have any thoughts about these stones? They all pass the HCA tool. I know that I need to have them checked to make sure they are eye clean and get the ideal scope image.

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/G-SI1-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond-1503150.asp
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/F-VS2-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond-1446232.asp
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/E-SI2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1493044.asp

Two of them only have 5.3 for spread. I would want 5.45 or better for spread if I could get it for your budget.

 

[ALBAN-METHODIOS]

Two of them only have 5.3 for spread. I would want 5.45 or better for spread if I could get it for your budget.

Hmm, I am not sure how to find that out using the HCA tool in the browser. Is that simply seen by the very good vs excellent? We really narrowed it down to these 3 stones and are having the ideal scope of them sent to us. Right now the last one is our favorite but we are waiting on the idea-scope images.

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/G-SI1-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond-1503150.asp
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/F-VS2-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond-1446232.asp
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/F-SI1-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond-1498714.asp