Engagement Ring - Would love some buying suggestions

[Findingtheonering]

Hello,

I've read a few forum posts similar to this, but my needs are a bit different, so I'm sorry if you feel you've already answered this. I am looking for an affordable place to get an engagement ring. I have done what I'd consider a reasonable amount of homework into the 4C's, visiting stores, looking at online shops, etc. to waste as little of your time with basic questions as possible and of course get me close to knowledgeable enough to buy.

My needs (I think)
- Price including ring less than $5000
- Approx 1 Carat stone, from .95 for round to maybe up to 1.25 for princess, etc.
- Any round to square cut is more or less OK (square brilliant, princess, etc) not marquise, opal, etc
- I think I'll go with a solitare and plan to upgrade someday if we want to, probably a platinum band (she doesn't like gold color)
- Fairly good specs I think - VS2 to VS1, G to I color, Very good polish (and cut if applicable)
- Her finger is a fairly tiny 4.5 (don't know that this matters but...)

My odd caveat: We'd be fine with a smaller stone, but her dad used to be a jewler and he's not predisposed to like me (he's Chinese, I'm not and he believes only a Chinese guy should marry his daughteur... long story...) So this means having the amenities of servicing and lifetime exchange aren't too important (I think as anyone can reset a solitaire yes?) but getting a stone or ring that he would find acceptable is important.

Where I'm at:
Since I don't think I need to care about amenities an online dealer seems like my best option. I searched some places recommended here: whiteflash, good old gold, diamond rings direct and costco. Based on an older board post here I checked if Costco has a diamond catalog. They said they don't any more FYI.

Questions:
- I'd love general feedback on what I can skimp on (is J or K color OK, what about going down to SI1, lesser polish, etc?) and where you think I should stay firm or maybe spend more money?

- Why are 1.01 carat cushion, princess, and Radient stones around half the price of rounds? I understand more of the diamond weight is cut off for rounds, but I read its 50% of the rough diamond remaining for rounds vs say 80% for princess. This doesn't seem like enough to warrant a 2x price. Are rounds much more attractive, more in demand or is it because you don't get cut grade info, or what?

- Good old gold seemed to have very few diamonds and seemed generally more expensive. Am I getting something better in return?

- Engagement rings direct has this weird Preferred, Premium, Hearts & Arrows cut grade scale. Can I think of this as Ideal, Excellent, Very Good or what? Also, does this mean anything for non-round stones? They do list non-rounds as premium or preferred (none in H&A grade).

- They all talk about a wire price being cheaper. I can probably set one up with my bank (Wells Fargo), but why is it cheaper, and what are the pros/cons of it?

- Costco did have 1 carat round brilliant solitaires in platinum for $4999 (I color, Excellent cut, VS2, GIA cert) I'd go back and check the info in more detail if I seriously consider these rings, but for a round brilliant this seems cheaper than online where similar stones alone cost $4800+. One note on this, I would have to get the ring resized (from 7 to 4.5), is this relatively cheap and easy?


Thanks for reading and providing helpful feedback..

 

[AnneinGA]

Hi Find. Here's some feedback:

Questions:
- I'd love general feedback on what I can skimp on (is J or K color OK, what about going down to SI1, lesser polish, etc?) and where you think I should stay firm or maybe spend more money?
Color is an individual preference. What does your GF say? The one thing I would spend the most money and pay the most attention to is cut.

- Why are 1.01 carat cushion, princess, and Radient stones around half the price of rounds? I understand more of the diamond weight is cut off for rounds, but I read its 50% of the rough diamond remaining for rounds vs say 80% for princess. This doesn't seem like enough to warrant a 2x price. Are rounds much more attractive, more in demand or is it because you don't get cut grade info, or what?
I haven't seen this trend.

- Good old gold seemed to have very few diamonds and seemed generally more expensive. Am I getting something better in return?
I think GOG has some of the prettiest stones around, especially their vintage cushions. If you haven't looked at his videos, I would check them out pronto. You can learn a WHOLE LOT watching them. http://www.vimeo.com/diamondinfo

- Engagement rings direct has this weird Preferred, Premium, Hearts & Arrows cut grade scale. Can I think of this as Ideal, Excellent, Very Good or what? Also, does this mean anything for non-round stones? They do list non-rounds as premium or preferred (none in H&A grade).
Many of the online vendors have their own preferred lines. I don't think you can compare them to specific cut grades.

- They all talk about a wire price being cheaper. I can probably set one up with my bank (Wells Fargo), but why is it cheaper, and what are the pros/cons of it?
Wiring means direct immediate funds with none of the 2-4% in credit card fees for the vendor, which saves them margin. If you're working with a reputable dealer, it's not an issue.

- Costco did have 1 carat round brilliant solitaires in platinum for $4999 (I color, Excellent cut, VS2, GIA cert) I'd go back and check the info in more detail if I seriously consider these rings, but for a round brilliant this seems cheaper than online where similar stones alone cost $4800+. One note on this, I would have to get the ring resized (from 7 to 4.5), is this relatively cheap and easy?
I don't think resizing is an issue unless it's platinum, which I understand can be brittle.

There are many here that can help you find a great stone and help with the education process. It seems from your post that since your future father in law was a jeweler you are trying to win his approval with your choice of stone (understandable!). Why not use this opportunity to glean knowledge from him and bond a little bit? Is that completely out of the question? Would he help you with the process so you bought her a nice stone? If you come on here to learn just enough to buy a stone and can't back up why you bought it, he might just think you got lucky. If you really can talk the details with him, you might earn his respect a little bit and that his daughter mattered enough to you for you to learn this. Just a thought.

 

[JulieN]

You can move down to SI1. You can get a white gold setting, since you might upgrade anyway. I don't think you can get away with a J if her Chinese father is a former jeweler.

Demand for rounds is very high, so they are priced higher.

Wire prices are cheaper because the vendor doesn't have to pay the credit card company their fee.

Good Old Gold carries a very well-edited selection of stones. You will pay a premium for this kind of service.

 

[antelope1]

- Why are 1.01 carat cushion, princess, and Radient stones around half the price of rounds? I understand more of the diamond weight is cut off for rounds, but I read its 50% of the rough diamond remaining for rounds vs say 80% for princess. This doesn't seem like enough to warrant a 2x price. Are rounds much more attractive, more in demand or is it because you don't get cut grade info, or what?

Face-up size! A 1ct RB will have a face up diameter between 6-6.5mm (depending). If you find a 1ct cushion that faces up bigger than 6mm x 6mm, I would be wary that it is cut shallow. A 1ct princess will face up even smaller (think in the 5.5mm x 5.5mm) range, since a good princess is usually cut to be deeper than a good cushion. Also, for cushions, cut no cut grades.

- Good old gold seemed to have very few diamonds and seemed generally more expensive. Am I getting something better in return?

GOG carries many branded cuts. You're paying for the brand. Also, for some diamonds, they have a 100% lifetime upgrade policy (at 1:1, the best upgrade there is). Also, GOG has a B&M store on Long Island. B&Ms are generally higher markup than online only operations due to higher overhead.

- Engagement rings direct has this weird Preferred, Premium, Hearts & Arrows cut grade scale. Can I think of this as Ideal, Excellent, Very Good or what? Also, does this mean anything for non-round stones? They do list non-rounds as premium or preferred (none in H&A grade).

For RBs, kind of. For other cuts, you should call and ask. Email may go to spam, so call.

- Costco did have 1 carat round brilliant solitaires in platinum for $4999 (I color, Excellent cut, VS2, GIA cert) I'd go back and check the info in more detail if I seriously consider these rings, but for a round brilliant this seems cheaper than online where similar stones alone cost $4800+. One note on this, I would have to get the ring resized (from 7 to 4.5), is this relatively cheap and easy?

Costco diamonds are generally set in 18k WG at that price point. Sizing should be easy. My dad (Chinese) loves Costco (because he's getting the best deal) but ... your future FIL is a jeweler. I think you're in a bind there. Will anything you get for her in your budget be "good enough"? I mean -- he can tell, right, if it's low in color or low in clarity or poorly cut. You're in a really tough situation!

... What does your GF want?

 

[antelope1]

Also, on the Chinese thing -- older Chinese tend to like YG more than WG. You could save a lot by going the YG route.

And have you considered formally asking him for his daughter's hand? This is old fashioned, but ... he sounds traditional. This strategy could go really well or really poorly...

Last thought: If you don't care about the trade-up, James Allen has lower prices than other vendors (IMO). (JA has a 1:2 trade up policy -- when you trade it in, you have to spend 2x as much on the next diamond. You pay more up front at GOG for a better trade up policy later.) A 18k WG or 18k YG solitaire setting at JA starts at $360.

 

[Findingtheonering]

Thanks all for the great replies especially the specific helpful feedback.

Let me give some responses to questions -

- Chinese jeweler stuff - Yes, I have no idea what he might like really, but hoped some of you would have suggestions from the jewler's perspective (or at least jewlery lovers, which I'm not.) This is why skimping on B&M shops is OK IMO, its not something he'd see. He speaks very little English and I speak almost no Mandarin (learning now) so we can't really talk about diamonds short of an interpreter. He had actually suggested I get a ring from him to Shar (my girlfriend) but he'll suggest stuff like that that seems semi-friendly one moment then threaten to disown Shar the next. So discussing a ring with him is nearly impossible and could easily be a train wreck. I do plan to ask for his daughter's hand in person, we're flying out to the Philippines (he retired there) in about a month.

- What does my GF want? Silvery ring (this reads platinum or white gold to me), the cuts I mentioned, we even discussed if she even wanted a ring. She does. She has little knowledge about the 4Cs etc. You might think she would as daughter of a jewler, but she isn't extremely close to her parents (a nanny did a lot of her raising.)

- I have a last option, using my grandmother's ring. Its a smaller stone (.75 round) but the family tie thing might be more valuable than money. I'll get more info on it if I can, though I doubt it has certs.

 

[Brown.Eyed.Girl]

I would try to keep the color at H or higher. Since the father is both Asian (where high colors and clarity are valued), AND a jeweler, I think if he sees a hint of warmth, he'll be predisposed to think the diamond is crap (even though it isn't).

Of course, what HE thinks is COMPLETELY secondary to what your gf wants. Does she have preferences (other than it being a square or round stone)? Does she have a minimum color that she doesn't want to venture beyond (could very well be if she grew up knowing jewelry through her dad). Also, take into account clarity. My family (Korean) doesn't have this particular bias, but a lot of Asian cultures really prize high, high clarity (IF or VVS). I don't think (personally) it's worth paying the premium as long as the diamond is eye-clean, but this could be really important to your gf.

Above all, get the best cut diamond you can, be it princess or cushion or round. If it's white, eye-clean, and sparkling WAY more than anything your future FIL has in his display cases, well, I think that says something in and of itself To that end, I would look at Good Old Gold's H&As, Whiteflash's A Cut Above (ACA) diamonds, Brian Gavin Diamond's Signature diamonds, and High Performance Diamond's Infinity diamonds. These are the best of the best (at least for RBs though I believe WF, BGD and HPD all have ideal cut princesses, and I'm sure GOG does too), and will knock her socks off with light performance.

Costo/Sam's Club actually has a decent selection for the price. You can get great deals, but their engagement diamonds aren't on par with the vendors listed above, IMO. I think Costco/Sam's Club's diamonds are IGI certified? I would recommend staying with GIA and AGS certed diamonds as those two are more stringent with their grading.

Finally, you can also find really nice diamonds at places that are drop-shippers like James Allen and Blue Nile. I would, however, run the numbers on any prospective diamond through the HCA. Use the HCA as an elimination tool. Diamonds with HCA scores under 2 are good contenders - you can weed out the obviously bad ones using it.

Good luck!

 

[Brown.Eyed.Girl]

I like this one - 0.9_H_SI1_H&A_$4,597 - but I'd check if it's eye-clean (this is if you decide high clarity isn't an issue).

Do you think she'd like antique-style cuts? GOG carries gorgeous August Vintage cushions and rounds (bigger, chunkier faceting, the look of antique stones but with optimized light performance like modern cuts). Here is a 0.83_H_VS1_AVOEC for $4,050.

And here is a 0.87_G_VS2_Infinity_Diamond for $4,808.

 

[swingirl]

here's one you might consider.
http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2397478.htm

 

[GamGam]

In looking at a few stones on James Allen's site, I found these 2 for your consideration.
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/G-SI1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1328324.aspPrice = $3840; HCA = 1.8
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/G-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1334202.aspPrice = $4280; HCA = 1.5

 

[velouriaL]

I'm going to suggest a different tactic...

Take your family stone and pour all of your $5000 into a Leon Mege (artofplatinum.com) or VanCraeynest (vancraeynest.com) setting.

You have a sentimental reason for the stone, which your future-father-in-law might respect, and it might help him save face in case he decides to get upset that you didn't try to get one through him.

AND you'll have a setting that will blow anyone away, even a begrudging F-FIL and (especially?) a former-jeweler.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

In terms of pricing online which is very competitive it goes like this in order of impact:

1) Rough Yield

Far Behind

2) Vendor Markup
3) Brand Premium

Rough yields are the greatest factor in pricing especially with internet vendors who fight in the very competitive pricescope market.
Fancy shapes in general are priced much less than a round often 20 - 50% less and this is due to yield more than any other factor.
In terms of faceup size (you must use surface area not LXW or carat weight) you get more bang for your buck choosing a fancy shape but it can be quite close when you compare both types cut for optimal light performance.

Trademembers who only sell non branded cuts keep claiming it is brand premium when that is maybe 5 - 20% of the difference the rest the other 80% or more is usually yield premium.

 

[YoungPapa]

Finally, you can also find really nice diamonds at places that are drop-shippers like James Allen and Blue Nile.

B.E.G.,

It's a small point, but worth noting. We don't drop ship anything. Every item sold by our company is thoroughly inspected by a GIA graduate gemologist prior to shipment to the client. This applies to loose diamonds, finished jewelry, and bridal.

All the best,

 

[John P]

- Chinese jeweler stuff - Yes, I have no idea what he might like really, but hoped some of you would have suggestions from the jewler's perspective (or at least jewlery lovers, which I'm not.) This is why skimping on B&M shops is OK IMO, its not something he'd see. He speaks very little English and I speak almost no Mandarin (learning now) so we can't really talk about diamonds short of an interpreter. He had actually suggested I get a ring from him to Shar (my girlfriend) but he'll suggest stuff like that that seems semi-friendly one moment then threaten to disown Shar the next. So discussing a ring with him is nearly impossible and could easily be a train wreck. I do plan to ask for his daughter's hand in person, we're flying out to the Philippines (he retired there) in about a month.

It's nice that you are taking this into account. Depending on when he was a jeweler and where he operated on the mainland the volume and especially the quality of diamonds he dealt with could have been at one extreme or another. The awakening of their diamond engagement tradition is relatively recent, but since it's recent the emphasis on cut quality in the mainstream is more significant there.

Here are a couple of articles that could give you discussion-points (translator not included). The first is a consumer overview. The second is more jeweler/trade oriented.

China On The Rise (1): https://www.pricescope.com/journal/china-rise
China On The Rise (2): https://www.pricescope.com/journal/china-rise-exploding-economy-fantastic-future-part-two

With the above said I'd also urge you to keep the main-thing the main-thing. It will be great to build inroads with her father, and I hope he appreciates the respect you offer in asking permission. Meanwhile, the symbol you give your future wife should be about you and her.

 

[Findingtheonering]

I have to say I'm very impressed by the breadth of help I'm receiving. Suggestions for individual stones, going with an artist of personalized platinum rings, location/Chinese jeweler suggestions, and more. Wow

With all the good info I feel a little guilty I haven't responded in a few days. The reason is I brought my girlfriend to several B&M stores this weekend to reaffirm her preferances, and it seemed silly to comment until I got that done. As much as I'd prefer to keep the ring presentation secret (and the final decision and presentation will be if possible,) she knows I'm showing the ring to her parents. We're trying to plan this to maximise winning over her parents and covering every contingency we can imagine. If they don't come along, well we'll move on without them, but we both think family is important.

Narrowing my scope:
We've decided she actually prefers solitaires, and my grandma's ring won't do (too old fashioned for her.) She has no preference on round vs princess vs radient (confirming my info.) She likes simple prongs going up, no bridge, a 2 mm band, and can't tell I from G color. A somewhat larger stone is a plus, if for no other reason than they sound more impressive. I'm hearing the "get a good cut/clarity" advice I've been getting, but might settle for something less than ideal (but not too far sown) simply because she liked the 1ct stone size and his eyesight isn't so great any more.

I may toss some scope images up later today/tomorrow for critique and would be happy to hear if anyone has further suggestions for stones, buying, or whatever.

Thanks again!

 

[velouriaL]

Sounds good! Though a well cute stone will *look* bigger and brigher than a slightly larger less well cut one... just saying...

Also, pllleeease just have her *look* at Leon Mege's website and see if she's seduced... many of us have been and daydream about it... I still think the best option is your grandmother's stone in a $5000 setting, probably with a halo.

 

[stone-cold11]

Sounds good! Though a well cute stone will *look* bigger and brigher than a slightly larger less well cut one... just saying...

Ditto, weight does not equal to face up dimension. Read the knowledge section on carat weight.
http://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-carat-weight/

This image is obtained from that section. Both gems are the same diameter and could be cut from the rough diamond. The well cut diamond on the left weighs 0.84ct and the dull drab stone weighs 1.00ct. Because it is a carat it will sell for more.

 

[Findingtheonering]

Replying:
velouriaL - I can't pull the stone out of the older ring (my mom attaches sentimental value to the ring as set.) So if I see something custom for $5K or less I might indeed go for it, but most looked pricier and I'll nudge the GF over if I see something possible in my budget. I loved the 5-stone ones, they're just too much $$

Stone-cold11 - For size, yes it makes sense a .95ct can easily not just outsparkle but actually look bigger than say a 1.05. I'm pretty torn about this though. On the one hand, people always ask how big the stone is. So I'm hesitant to go too small, even for a sparkly stone. However I definitely don't want to get a bad stone that gets me to 1ct. Can I split the difference and get a nice looking stone that's 1ct that doesn't quite have the maxed out face size? I think maybe with one of the stones I have below.

Next:
In wading through princess and radient cuts, I'm frustrated by the fact I hear about AGS light grading but there's no such measurements listed for most stones (and it sounds like ideal polish and symmetry don't necessarily = ideal light.) So would I have to either buy and look at them (with my unprofessional eye) and return them if needed, have them sent to a lab (whiteflash does this but it costs about $50 if I don't buy the stone), or narrow my selection to the few AGS certified stones?

Take this one from Whiteflash: It seems like it'd have excellent light (from my relatively nieve viewpoint)

Item Code 2495192
Shape Princess
Carat 1.130
Color I
Clarity VS1
Certificate GIA
Polish Excellent
Symmetry Very Good
Depth % 72.6
Table % 70.0
Measurements 5.91x5.75x4.18
Culet None
Fluorescence None
Girdle Slightly Thick-Very Thick - wasting some stone weight here

Gia cert here: http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/certificate.aspx?idno=2495192&file_name=1

That seems pretty good to me but... Good Old Gold had this stone where I feel more confident about what I'm getting but drop from VS1 to SI1 and loose .1 carat.

Princess
Weight: 1.02ct
Color: I
Clarity: SI1
AGS Cut Grade: Ideal Length: 5.64mm
Depth: 3.93mm
Table Percentage: 71.07%
Polish: Ideal
Depth Percentage: 70.52%
Symmetry: Ideal
Fluorescence: None

Lab Report: AGS
Lab Report #: 1040394010003
In House: Yes Bank Wire Price: $4,080
Width: 5.57mm

The odd thing here is they said a good rule of thumb in princess is don't get a table % bigger than the depth, but this is (slightly) and still has ideal light. This has the cert and scope info too here: http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/6956/

The setting
Trying to find a simple setting for a square stone.

Maybe one of these work? Its hard to see the sides of the rings in the pics, and we want a minimal bridge (or none, not sure how this is called), just simple unbroken band with prongs coming up

http://shop.goodoldgold.com/index.cfm/a/catalog.prodshow/vid/46044/catid/168
or this one: http://shop.goodoldgold.com/index.cfm/a/catalog.prodshow/vid/47375/catid/168

 

[Siamese Kitty]

FTOR-

Just wanted to chime in about color-are you sure you want to go with an I? Like some of the other pp's have mentioned-if her father was a jeweler, he is going to notice the tint. I think G is a much safer bet in this case and something in the .9XX range is so close to a carat, no one will be the wiser. On the other hand, the color difference will be very noticeable, especially in a princess cut. (even moreso in a radiant)

 

[stone-cold11]

Not enough information on the WF stone since it is a virtual stone.

For now, I prefer the GOG stone.

 

[Findingtheonering]

Siamese - I'm not set on I, I just wanted to compare two similar stones and of course I gives me some options in terms of size. Also, Good Old Gold has a very small number of stones in my price range to compare to.

Stone - Yes, so that's the story, you don't get enough info on most online shop's stones out of the box huh? What do most people do about this?

 

[stone-cold11]

Stone - Yes, so that's the story, you don't get enough info on most online shop's stones out of the box huh? What do most people do about this?

Which you know already. Ask WF to call it in and they will look at it, get IS/ASET done on the stone, if they think it is good and you pass on it, $50 down the drain, or buy it and see it for yourself, if you know what to look for, or send it to an independent appraiser that knows princess cut and see what his opinion is.

 

[antelope1]

She has no preference on round vs princess vs radient (confirming my info.)

But it sounds like you've definitely decided on a princess? I just bring this up because she probably viewed RB's in the lower colors, not princesses. Princesses show more color than RBs (that is, an I color princess will look yellower than a I color RB), IMO. B&Ms that I've strolled into don't seem to have many princesses in the I range.

Did she view an I color princess and say that the color was ok? If not, I would stick to a RB if you go for a lower color (H/I). If princess, go for G+ (as Siamese Kitty and others have said).

Also, SC's comment is about "virtual" stones -- these are diamonds listed by more than one vendor because they actually live with the distributor. The vendor may not have seen the diamond that they're listing for sale, which is why we need more info. But this isn't true of all diamonds that online vendors list -- some are in-house, and they can look at it for you for no charge. Check out the PS search feature and use the "in-house" button. I would have no problems buying a RB this way.