Engagement Ring Advice -- Art Deco

[nickman789]

I am purchasing an antique engagement ring for my girlfriend and would appreciate some advice. We have chosen a ring from Stephen Herdemian -- http://www.antiquejewelryforsale.com/viewProduct-547-PLATINUM_ART_DECO_ENGAGEMENT_RING.html

Images are available in the link above. The description reads:

Staggeringly beautiful this art deco engagement ring is set in platinum and contains an Old European cut diamonds that weighs approx. 1.25 ct and has an I color and VS clarity. Tiptoeing though the luminosity of the side diamonds are triangular and crescent moon shaped emeralds adding that pinch of color. As the diamonds step down the mounting the intricate engraving appears offering its limitless beauty.

The asking price is $7000

I spoke with them and they said that the diamond is not certified because they did not want to remove it from the setting. They said that they try to not to overgrade the ring, and try to undergrade it. They also have a 2 week return policy, which will allow us to get the ring appraised. I understand that with antique rings are sometimes difficult to value. I am trying to ensure that we are receiving a fair deal (e.g., not paying $7000 for a ring worth $2000). Any thoughts on this are appreciated.

Assuming this ring is worth close to the asking price, my next question is whether I can negotiate the price down, and if so, how much? My initial thought was to make an offer of $6100 - $6200 with the hopes of paying around $6500. Thoughts on this strategy are also appreciated. Finally, I realize this may vary by merchant, but do you think I could have the item shipped out of state to save on sales tax?

Thanks so much for your help.

-- Nick

 

[vintagelover229]

fixed the link, the period at the end of the sentence made it not work

http://www.antiquejewelryforsale.com/viewProduct-547-PLATINUM_ART_DECO_ENGAGEMENT_RING.html

There are a lot of things to take into consideration even in an estate piece. First is the setting, to recreate that setting would be very expensive (I'm guessing here, but at least 2500.00, probably more) and for a 1.25 carat center stone (at a good price) your looking at 3-4k. It's hard to judge because the cut of the stone is what makes it beautiful, and it's hard to see it in the pictures. Have you seen it in person?

I'd check out
www.jewelsbyericagrace.com if I were you. Their stones are beautiful and they can either make or help source another setting. I personally think the ring you chose is beautiful, and if she loves it, that's all the really matters. However I would learn a bit more about the different options you have before pulling the trigger.

here are a few places to check out for estate pieces.

www.antiqueengagementrings.com
www.jewelsbyericagrace.com
www.doverjewelry.com
www.langsantiques.com
www.newyorkestatejewelry.com

ETA: langs seems really highly priced, so take that into consideration when comparing stones/prices.

 

[antelope1]

Ditto JbEG and Antique Engagement Rings. Both vendors offer some rings (with set diamond) that were graded (at some point). Even an EGL cert is better than no cert at all. (Of course, GIA or AGS would be better -- I think JbEG just switched to GIA certs.)

 

[Lula]

In the case of genuine antique stones/settings, there's often not a grading report, because, as the vendor said, it means dismantling the ring. The best thing you can do to protect yourself when buying a one-of-a-kind antique setting and stone is to make sure the vendor has a no-questions-asked return period that will allow you enough time to take the ring to an independent appraiser who has experience with antique stones and jewelry.

You want to make sure that the stone is indeed an old cut, and not a replacement stone from some other time period; you want to make sure that the setting is structurally sound and has not been altered, repaired, combined with another ring, etc.; and you want to make sure that the emeralds are indeed emeralds and not synthetic stones.

As others have suggested, you'll want to educate yourself a little more by looking at what other sellers of antique diamonds/settings have to offer and what they charge.

If your gf saw this ring and fell in love with it, then of course it's a great idea to honor her preference, but protect yourself with an independent appraisal and also some knowledge of what antique rings sell for.

ETA: Just saw that the vendor does have a good return period, and you're planning on getting an appraisal -- it would help if I read the entire post before writing out a long answer! I guess I would offer the vendor what you're comfortable paying (after doing some research on comparable rings). After the appraiser determines the condition, color/clarity, etc., return the ring if need be. But I suspect that if your girlfriend really loves the ring, nothing the appraiser says will change her mind, once she has it on her finger, except maybe if it is not structurally sound! About sales tax -- a good vendor will not aid and abet you in the crime -- and it is a crime -- of evading paying sales tax. They could get fined, lose their state sales tax permit, etc. I wouldn't ask them to do this.

 

[vintagelover229]

I re-read and I need to say that the "guess" I did for the setting is way off because it's platinum. It's going to be higher than that to replicate that setting, although if you find a lose stone you like I bet you can find another setting that's just as beautiful for a lot less if your open to different types that are similar and not go the custom route. That's the awesome thing about vintage/estate pieces, if you know where to look (or have PS) then you can find some awesome settings for pretty good prices.

I think JBEG is a great option. They actually have a few OEC that are in your price range (4500.00 or so) and that would leave a pretty good chunk for even a custom setting. Just to give you a few examples here are some (with video) from JBEG

http://jewelsbyericagrace.smugmug.com/Jewelry/Loose-Diamonds/101ct-Loose-Transitional-Cut/14031136_66WUx#1032509277_9bcUx

http://jewelsbyericagrace.smugmug.com/Jewelry/Loose-Diamonds/120ct-Loose-Old-European-Cut/13222404_z9kLN#960060873_av3Hi

this one is just under a carat but it's beautiful!
http://jewelsbyericagrace.smugmug.com/Jewelry/Loose-Diamonds/098ct-Loose-Old-Mine-Cut/13357465_v8WxF#971191157_2AywK

 

[nickman789]

Thanks for all of the advice. I greatly appreciate it. My girlfriend has her heart set on a period ring from the early 1900s, so making a custom ring is not an option. We live in New York and have checked out other places, including Eric's Originals, Doyle & Doyle, Israel Rose, and Gray & Davis, as well as Lang's in S.F. We almost purchased a ring from Israel Rose, but did not have a good experience with the proprietor there (he suggested shipping the item out of state, which is where I first heard of that). We have viewed the Herdemian ring in person, and it looks much better than the pictures. My girlfriend really likes it, and I feel comfortable with it. But I am always looking to get the best deal possible, so hopefully I can negotiate a better price.

I am planning to take the ring to David Wolf to be appraised -- http://www.justappraisers.com/html/about.html
He seems very qualified and has experience with period pieces. Thoughts on him or other appraisers is appreciated.

One additional question about synthetic emeralds. Some other jewelers have told me that during the 1920s many rings used synthetic colored stones because they were believed to be higher class. Is this true? I did not ask whether the emeralds in the ring we chose are synthetics, but I will.

Thanks again.

 

[vintagelover229]

Oh good!

If you've seen the stone in person (and seen other rings in person) than you should be able to make a good comparison and if she loves it, then by all means that's the route to go! However stating that I would try to get a better price on the piece just because it's not a certified stone and take it to the appraiser right away because he'll be able to tell you if what it was sold to you as is at least *close* to what he thinks it as (as others have said you can't ever really be certain unless you dismount the stone. There are many great estate pieces on the market and if you know what to look for, you really can get a great price on the piece.

In regards to the emeralds, I can't chime in on that one, although I'm sure one of the more knowledgeable posters can tell you a better idea. I do know they did use SIMS in that time period, but IMO it doesn't make it any less valuable to me. That's just ME though because if it's created in the same manner as a real one, just in a controlled environment, seems to be the same to me. However I know that MANY people feel differently. An appraiser should be able to tell you that as well.

I say if you've been to a few different places (antiqueengagementrings I think is in NYC if you want to go visit Leigh. He's very helpful but many of his pieces are reproduction pieces, but he DOES have the antique settings in stock, he just doesn't put them up on his site much) and she loves that ring, see if you can get a better price on it (keep in mind it's platinum, so getting it down 1k might be a little much bc the setting alone to reproduce would be at least 3-4k) which means if you can talk them down to 7k or so you'd be getting a pretty good price on the stone too. You seem like you've got your ducks in a row and if she likes the ring (and the price is right) and you haven't found anything else that you love I say at least try it out. An appraiser will be able to tell you if it's close to what you were told it was and if it's not, you said they have a return policy and then you can just return it (or if she still loves it perhaps get a small refund).

It's a beautiful and unique ring. Is there any way you can get pictures of the stone better? The inner pattern of the stone is really what can tell us if it's worth the price or not. Some older stones are BEAUTIFUL with others are kinda a little dull and wonky (although there are beautiful wonky ones too). But because you've seen it, I'm assuming it's a beautiful stone too.

Sorry I'm so long winded lol. I would love to be going around NYC and checking out vintage rings!


Another idea is check out goodoldgold I know they are in that general area. They have estate settings and stones and are very helpful. It's worth the trip even if you don't find the ring there because it's educational and the staff is great.

 

[Lula]

It sounds like you've done your homework. I think it's a beautiful ring, and it appears to be in great condition, too. Yes, I believe synthetic rubies and sapphires were commonly used in antique settings. I'm not sure of the reason behind it, but I know that they were also used as the jewels in watches produced at that time. But you'll want to know for sure whether they're natural or created emeralds in case you ever need to replace a lost stone.

If you believe the vendor is open to negotiating on price, by all means use the strategy of offering a bit less to see if they'll meet you in the middle. But that's a judgment call you'll need to make based on your interactions with them; some places are more willing to negotiate than others, and some vendors may be offended if they perceive you as lowballing them -- although if they're based in NYC, that's probably not the case. You want to develop a relationship of trust.

 

[stci]

The ring is really beautiful but the asking price is way to high IMO.

You can find other beautiful art deco ring for better price.

 

[SB621]

Personally I think 7k is a very good deal with that stone and setting. You can try to haggle with them, but it could go either way. It my experience (which is limited) I have never had an antique store go down on their prices. So goodluck if it works for you, but remember this is for your future wife and is her dream ring, so don't worry if you pay the actual 7k...i'm sure in the long run it will be well worth it.

 

[LGK]

In the case of genuine antique stones/settings, there's often not a grading report, because, as the vendor said, it means dismantling the ring. The best thing you can do to protect yourself when buying a one-of-a-kind antique setting and stone is to make sure the vendor has a no-questions-asked return period that will allow you enough time to take the ring to an independent appraiser who has experience with antique stones and jewelry.

You want to make sure that the stone is indeed an old cut, and not a replacement stone from some other time period; you want to make sure that the setting is structurally sound and has not been altered, repaired, combined with another ring, etc.; and you want to make sure that the emeralds are indeed emeralds and not synthetic stones.

As others have suggested, you'll want to educate yourself a little more by looking at what other sellers of antique diamonds/settings have to offer and what they charge.

If your gf saw this ring and fell in love with it, then of course it's a great idea to honor her preference, but protect yourself with an independent appraisal and also some knowledge of what antique rings sell for.

ETA: Just saw that the vendor does have a good return period, and you're planning on getting an appraisal -- it would help if I read the entire post before writing out a long answer! I guess I would offer the vendor what you're comfortable paying (after doing some research on comparable rings). After the appraiser determines the condition, color/clarity, etc., return the ring if need be. But I suspect that if your girlfriend really loves the ring, nothing the appraiser says will change her mind, once she has it on her finger, except maybe if it is not structurally sound! About sales tax -- a good vendor will not aid and abet you in the crime -- and it is a crime -- of evading paying sales tax. They could get fined, lose their state sales tax permit, etc. I wouldn't ask them to do this.

Haven't read past this post here. But it's almsot 100% certain those are synthetic emeralds. Almost- well, all, in my experience- antique settings from the teens/twenties with colored stones used synthetic sapphires and emeralds and rubies. Even mixed with platinum, and diamonds. They really didn't differentiate between synthetic and natural colored stones. So, if that matters? Definitely don't get an antique setting with colored stone anything. I've never seen a single antique setting using natural colored accent stones- maybe they exist, but I've never seen a one.

In fact, according to actual antique ads I've seen for settings very similar to this, you could order the exact same setting with either synthetic sapphires, emeralds or rubies. They did actually specify "synthetic", using that term. Which was a surprise to me.

Definitely check the center stone- the seller just doesn't provide good pics of it. There's something about the look of what you can see that makes me wonder if it's a replacement modern round brilliant- I could be totally wrong, since the pics are really not good, but it just doesn't look like an OEC from that angle.

Do some comparison shopping. While if you price it out- getting an antique setting truly recreated now is actually impossible really, since they're die struck , and nobody but Van Craeynest does that now, and they're insanely expensive- it may sound reasonable, often antique rings are sold a little lower than a modern one would be. Personally I prefer to pay about what the stone would price out at new, with the setting basically free. Not every antique piece is priced like that but you can definitely find them. But- pricing antiques is really tough. Once you find something you like, it's not like you can find a zillion others to comparison shop with. So, basically you need to decide if the premium you pay for "I really like this exact piece" is worth it or not. Generally, I don't pay it- but I collect antiques, not looking for a one-time purchase like an engagement ring like you are.

Basically what I'm saying is, *I* wouldn't spend $7000 on this ring. But I'm a cheapskate in terms of antique pieces, I only buy the crazy good deals, and it takes footwork and time to find them. i'd call the price high end of retail. Which is common enough with antique jewelry. if it's exactly what you're looking for and she loves it? Well, that can be worth paying money for frankly.

When you're inspecting the piece, check for wear- some is OK really, but you don't want a lot expensive repairs. Most antique rings are well-worn. Is the engraving intact? About 50% left is pretty typical. If it's all there, that's excellent. Are the sidestones set well, or do they need repointing? That can be $$$. How about the center stone? Has the ring been sized, and if so how is the workmanship? Is the shank OK or is it paper thin? Is it still assay marked?

You want to see a lot of fire from an OEC. Check and make sure it's returning fire across the whole stone, that there's no dead spots (especially the center- if an OEC isn't well cut, that's where it typically shows). You don't want all the fire coming from the outside edge of the diamond.

Look at the color especially in overcast daylight. That's where you're gonna see the most body color, in day to day wear.

Glad you're getting it appraised- make postive sure the appraiser is familiar with *antique* stones.

ETA: I don't like that they're telling you they cannot get it certed set. You can. EGL USA certs set stones. Another reason that cert is so common with antique jewelry. I would be really surprised if a seller of antique jewelry didn't know that. For the price, I would want some certification, EGL USA would be acceptable.

ETA again : In terms of making an offer, try it. Many sellers will negotiate, some won't. Just depends. Be polite and don't talk sh!t about the merchandise to try to get a better deal, lol. (That always irritates me when customers do that, and I'm way less likely to discount anything in that case.) And take a polite NO for an answer if you must.

ETA, good lord, yet again: I just can't shut up this afternoon. Anyway- the center stone has a huge table and low crown for an OEC, that's what's making me wonder about it. That doesn't jibe with the era of the setting- it should be a true OEC and not a transitional cut or a modern RB, the setting is probably late teens or early to mid '20s.

 

[antelope1]

Just FYI, if you want another option: antiqueengagementrings.com is located in NYC too, and they carry actual period pieces. They operate a B&M showroom as Leigh Jay Nacht Inc., 10 West 47th Street Suite 802, New York, New York 10036. Phone number is 212.719.2888.

And some of their antique diamonds have certs, usually EGLs. Here's one that is an actual antique (not a replica): http://antiqueengagementrings.com/shopping/shopexd.asp?id=3010