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EGL USA "K" or EGL Intl. "J" or EGL Israel "I"

slg47

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Apr 4, 2010
Messages
9,667
have you seen in person? can you take to an independent appraiser?
 

crbl999

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
447
None of the above. I would find a smaller, ideal/excellent cut GIA or AGS stone.
 

CedarRapids

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Aug 16, 2011
Messages
146
Could you please provide some context? Are these round brilliants? What carat weight? To be used for what purpose? Are you the end-wearer?
 

Regular Guy

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 6, 2004
Messages
5,954
I think the main thing is you've got the order right.
 

seedslinger

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 29, 2011
Messages
45
I'm talking about RB's in the 1-2ct range.

Diamond will be in an antique ering.

I'm not so interested in discussing whether EGL certificates are "worth the paper they are printed on" or not, just an idea of the variability between the different EGL labs.

For example, I suspect that all 3 of color gradings above would look similiar and would grade as a GIA L or M.

From what I understand EGL USA is one color grade soft in comparison to GIA, EGL Intl. perhaps 2 grades softer and EGL Israel perhaps 3 color grades softer than GIA.

What do you think?
 

slg47

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Apr 4, 2010
Messages
9,667
seedslinger|1316890065|3024754 said:
I'm talking about RB's in the 1-2ct range.

Diamond will be in an antique ering.

I'm not so interested in discussing whether EGL certificates are "worth the paper they are printed on" or not, just an idea of the variability between the different EGL labs.

For example, I suspect that all 3 of color gradings above would look similiar and would grade as a GIA L or M.

From what I understand EGL USA is one color grade soft in comparison to GIA, EGL Intl. perhaps 2 grades softer and EGL Israel perhaps 3 color grades softer than GIA.

What do you think?
the problem is that they are inconsistent. it may be 1-2 grades or it may be 3-4 which has a huge effect on pricing.

if you are looking for a modern RB I see no reason NOT to stick with AGS or GIA. if you are looking for an older cut then many of these are graded by EGL but I would want an independent appraisal.
 

yssie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
21,100
slg47|1316890528|3024758 said:
seedslinger|1316890065|3024754 said:
I'm talking about RB's in the 1-2ct range.

Diamond will be in an antique ering.

I'm not so interested in discussing whether EGL certificates are "worth the paper they are printed on" or not, just an idea of the variability between the different EGL labs.

For example, I suspect that all 3 of color gradings above would look similiar and would grade as a GIA L or M.

From what I understand EGL USA is one color grade soft in comparison to GIA, EGL Intl. perhaps 2 grades softer and EGL Israel perhaps 3 color grades softer than GIA.

What do you think?
the problem is that they are inconsistent. it may be 1-2 grades or it may be 3-4 which has a huge effect on pricing.

Exactly that - there's no consistency, no way to reliably make any sort of correlation assumptions for a given stone!

If you're looking in-person and you do your homework and compare, and you are consistently won over by an EGL in a variety of lighting types, well, good for you for finding the stone your eyes like best!

If you're buying online, and *knowing what you've got* by the respected authority's standards is important to you, then choose a GIA or AGS if you're in the US.
 

dreamer_dachsie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
24,364
Yssie|1316918347|3024773 said:
slg47|1316890528|3024758 said:
seedslinger|1316890065|3024754 said:
I'm talking about RB's in the 1-2ct range.

Diamond will be in an antique ering.

I'm not so interested in discussing whether EGL certificates are "worth the paper they are printed on" or not, just an idea of the variability between the different EGL labs.

For example, I suspect that all 3 of color gradings above would look similiar and would grade as a GIA L or M.

From what I understand EGL USA is one color grade soft in comparison to GIA, EGL Intl. perhaps 2 grades softer and EGL Israel perhaps 3 color grades softer than GIA.

What do you think?
the problem is that they are inconsistent. it may be 1-2 grades or it may be 3-4 which has a huge effect on pricing.

Exactly that - there's no consistency, no way to reliably make any sort of correlation assumptions for a given stone!

If you're looking in-person and you do your homework and compare, and you are consistently won over by an EGL in a variety of lighting types, well, good for you for finding the stone your eyes like best!

If you're buying online, and *knowing what you've got* by the respected authority's standards is important to you, then choose a GIA or AGS if you're in the US.
Exactly.

There is no way to answer your question because of the inconsistency in the grading from those labs.

Are these moder RB or old cuts?

ETA: That said I believe EGL USa has the best reputation of that motley crew.
 

dreamer_dachsie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
24,364
seedslinger|1316890065|3024754 said:
I'm not so interested in discussing whether EGL certificates are "worth the paper they are printed on" or not, just an idea of the variability between the different EGL labs.
And just because I am feeling fiesty tonight ;))

If you know enough about this forum and our opinions to add this comment, then why ask us at all? We would love to help you and offer advice, but if we are only going to tell you something you do not want to hear or talk about, then it seems a futile excercise for all parties involved.
 

MissStepcut

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 29, 2011
Messages
1,720
If I'd decided getting a reliable cert wasn't important to me, as you seem to have, I wouldn't get an EGL cert either; I'd get an uncerted stone that I'd seen in person and knew I liked. If the cert is worthless, why rely on one at all?
 

LGK

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 27, 2007
Messages
2,975
Well, basically when shopping for old cuts with EGL certs I often use them only as a general guideline. Old cuts unfortunately get saddled with EGL certs quite often. It makes it hard to compare pricing properly- I often assume around 2 to 3 color grades off just to get some sort of baseline to work with. Often, I ask the seller what their opinion is- hopefully the seller is reputable- and I never buy old cuts online without a return policy. For me that is an absolute hard and fast rule; I simply don't take that risk. Then, get yourself an independent appraiser who is familiar with old cuts and get that puppy appraised.

While it's hard to assess color in pictures- they can help. Like, if a pic shows an obvious hint of yellow from the side, and the while balance of the image looks OK, you can probably assume it's K or lower in color.

As has been mentioned, yes, there is no easy way to compare- they're just too inconsistent. EGL USA is somewhat better, but still- inconsistency is nevertheless a problem. EGL USA is pretty good with clarity at least- in fact they are fairly strict. I have an EGL USA Old European Cut that was graded SI1, and it's eye clean from every angle, even with my (very nearsighted, and thus I have really good closeup vision) eyeball plastered up to the stone. But again, unfortunately, you cannot count on that as an absolute rule.
 

AnneinGA

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Aug 6, 2010
Messages
403
Well, to answer the question you posed directly, I would trust an EGL USA cert before one of the EGL Intl/Israel, so sight unseen, all else being equal it is more likely that the EGL K is a truer "K" than the EGL Intl "J" or Israel "I".

And I second, and third, and fourth (etc) all those above that I wouldn't buy an EGL stone of any type sight unseen; Truth is the only thing I would buy (and did) sight unseen was an AGS 000 H&A. That's a definition and standards I can live with. :))
 

seedslinger

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 29, 2011
Messages
45
Anne :)|1316981594|3025281 said:
Well, to answer the question you posed directly, I would trust an EGL USA cert before one of the EGL Intl/Israel, so sight unseen, all else being equal it is more likely that the EGL K is a truer "K" than the EGL Intl "J" or Israel "I".

And I second, and third, and fourth (etc) all those above that I wouldn't buy an EGL stone of any type sight unseen; Truth is the only thing I would buy (and did) sight unseen was an AGS 000 H&A. That's a definition and standards I can live with. :))
Thanks for the reply Anne.
 

denverappraiser

Ideal_Rock
Trade
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Jul 21, 2004
Messages
8,822
The problem with EGL is not that they are using a different grading scale from GIA, which they are, or that they apply the scales differently, which do. The problem is inconsistency. Sometimes D=E and sometimes D=H. Sometimes SI1=SI1, sometimes SI1=I1, etc. This is true of all of them. I think EGL-USA is the most consistent of the bunch you’ve listed but without this consistency it doesn’t matter. You’re measuring with a rubber yardstick and asking which is the best color. You’re missing the point, possibly deliberately.

FWIW, EGL Israel is one of several offices for EGL International. It's not really a 3rd choice as your headline suggests.

seedslinger|1316890065|3024754 said:
From what I understand EGL USA is one color grade soft in comparison to GIA, EGL Intl. perhaps 2 grades softer and EGL Israel perhaps 3 color grades softer than GIA.
Again, this is the problem. You have made a false assumption. There simply is NOT a linear conversion chart to convert one lab's grading to another. SOME EGL Israel stones are dead on with what GIA would say and SOME EGL USA stone are way different. There is no way of telling from looking at the report which of these groups applies to the stone you're considering. If what you want is a GIA graded stone, buy a GIA graded stone. Don't try to buy something else and try to convert.

In answer to your question in the headline, buy the prettiest one and ignore the reports entirely.
 

seedslinger

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 29, 2011
Messages
45
So, if inconsistency is the issue, what is the best way to view a good volume of EGL or even un-certified stones?
 

AnneinGA

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Aug 6, 2010
Messages
403
Seed,
Since it seems I'm the only one playing the game at this point and humouring you, I have some questions.

Do you already have a stone in mind or are you playing devil's advocate? You mentioned something above about an antique setting; is this something you already have? Have you seen an EGL stone you like and want to compare it?

As someone who started out the process on the EGL bandwagon (hey I can get a good stone for less money) it didn't take long to get educated on the fact that you get what you pay for, and the diamond sellers are the experts who are in business to make money. They won't sell an EGL stone as an EGL if they can send to GIA or AGS, which carry a premium. Go search my original threads about EGL vs. GIA vs. AGS. I swear there's one a week of these recently and I understand why - but there really is a reason why AGS carry a premium over EGL.

Back to the answering of your question again.

First I figured out the shape I wanted and started calling around. In Atlanta, where I am, I went to Shane Co., D. Gellar, and Solomon Brothers. At the time I was looking at a cushion. Shane had nada. D. Gellar I got in a fight with the gemologist about why I had a loupe, and at Solomon Brothers I met a lovely woman who let me see ten or so cushions in varying colors and cuts. I also went to Union Diamond (who is a broker) in Atlanta who let me see a couple of things they had in stock. That's when I saw an 2.6 ct. EGL RB that got my attention, which started my pondering about why wasn't an EGL as good as the others and hence my posts.

Then, I paid for an hour of appraiser time to see his matched set of diamonds to color grade against (there is a specific name for these but I don't know it). What it is is .5 carat diamonds, GIA, all of the same cut and clarity, from color grade D down through L (at least that's what my appraiser had). With those it was easy to learn my color tolerance (an H in a round brilliant). I found it impossible to go to any B&M jewelry store and see graduated same-cut -clarity -shape -size diamonds to figure this out.

Once I knew what my color tolerances were, I started reading and doing the research, which is again why I ended up with 000 AGS stones. I'm not 20 years old where size is all that matters; I ended up wanting the best out there, which was why I got what I got. I didn't want size at the expense of cut. When I started here my C's (in order) were carat, clarity, color, cut. Now it's cut, clarity, color, carat.

I am not sure of your circumstances, but the best way to learn what your tolerances are is to go look at a lot of stones, unmounted, with a loupe. And look at more and more and more, until you can almost guess the color before they tell you.

Incidentally When I went to Union Diamond, I met up with Yennyfire from this site, and we played guess the color. And it started with "well, if it's a GIA then it's ___ but if it's an EGL it's ___" We were both pretty close.

So what do you have or do you want exactly?
 

seedslinger

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 29, 2011
Messages
45
Anne,

Again, thanks for your reply.

My intention of the thread is not to anger people, play devils advocate or suggest that EGL is in anyway comparable to GIA or AGS.

I'm simply asking for my own education and interest.

As has been said here, you are buying a diamond, not a piece of paper. So, while EGL is known to be both soft on grading and inconsistent, that doesn't mean that there are no good diamonds with an EGL certification. Further, while GIA and AGS are the undisputed standards in diamond grading, they are also by nature, an opinion.

As for my specific case, I have a setting that was my great grandmothers that requires a 1.25 stone, the setting also needs about 500 in repair to re-prong and size. Issue is that I have set my budget on the entire ring at 3500. While I understand that this is a small budget for a diamond of that size and good quality, it is all that I can spend in good conscience.

Thus, I have been looking at lower color (to M) diamonds. I think we can live with a lower color for the following reasons:

1) The setting is an "illusion" setting in which the sides and point of the diamond will be mostly covered, almost like a semi-bezel setting.

2) The setting is antique, so a warmer color will look somewhat correct.

3) My gf and I prefer a vanilla color to icy white.

Now that I have given you my parameters, here is the theoretical.

Diamond 1 is a GIA 1.22, Ex. cut, L, SI1, with a sub-2 HCA rating.

Diamond 2 is a EGL Israel, 1.25, Ex./ideal cut, J, VS-1, with a sub-2 HCA rating.

Diamond 2 is $500 less than diamond 1.

Both diamonds can be seen before purchase.

I have no intention of ever selling the diamond or trading up.

As I said, I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers, but if you can expect (with some level of chance), that the EGL stone is actually an L or M and a SI1 or eye-clean SI2 and you are okay with those grades, didn't I just pay for the ring restoration with the balance of the two stones? And if the EGL stones does not grade to the "expected" standards or does not appeal to the eye, one could pass on it.

Again, I'm not trying to anger people, just throw-out a theoretical situation.

Thanks for sharing your experience and knowledge!
 

yssie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
21,100
seedslinger|1317236213|3028037 said:
Anne,

Again, thanks for your reply.

My intention of the thread is not to anger people, play devils advocate or suggest that EGL is in anyway comparable to GIA or AGS.

I'm simply asking for my own education and interest.

As has been said here, you are buying a diamond, not a piece of paper. So, while EGL is known to be both soft on grading and inconsistent, that doesn't mean that there are no good diamonds with an EGL certification. Further, while GIA and AGS are the undisputed standards in diamond grading, they are also by nature, an opinion.

As for my specific case, I have a setting that was my great grandmothers that requires a 1.25 stone, the setting also needs about 500 in repair to re-prong and size. Issue is that I have set my budget on the entire ring at 3500. While I understand that this is a small budget for a diamond of that size and good quality, it is all that I can spend in good conscience.

Thus, I have been looking at lower color (to M) diamonds. I think we can live with a lower color for the following reasons:

1) The setting is an "illusion" setting in which the sides and point of the diamond will be mostly covered, almost like a semi-bezel setting.

2) The setting is antique, so a warmer color will look somewhat correct.

3) My gf and I prefer a vanilla color to icy white.

Now that I have given you my parameters, here is the theoretical.

Diamond 1 is a GIA 1.22, Ex. cut, L, SI1, with a sub-2 HCA rating.

Diamond 2 is a EGL Israel, 1.25, Ex./ideal cut, J, VS-1, with a sub-2 HCA rating.

Diamond 2 is $500 less than diamond 1.

Both diamonds can be seen before purchase.

I have no intention of ever selling the diamond or trading up.

As I said, I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers, but if you can expect (with some level of chance), that the EGL stone is actually an L or M and a SI1 or eye-clean SI2 and you are okay with those grades, didn't I just pay for the ring restoration with the balance of the two stones? And if the EGL stones does not grade to the "expected" standards or does not appeal to the eye, one could pass on it.

Again, I'm not trying to anger people, just throw-out a theoretical situation.

Thanks for sharing your experience and knowledge!

That right there is key. If you can see them, and play with them, and compare them (in a variety of lighting types) then you are doing yourself a favour by doing just that, and letting your eyes choose between them. That's the best way to decide - and hey, if you like the EGL better - the only thing that makes sense is to get the EGL!

It's when you're buying blind online, and aren't able to see and compare (or don't have an excellent return policy), that things become troublesome.
 

AnneinGA

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Aug 6, 2010
Messages
403
I agree 100% with Yssie. Since you can see both, I would take the setting, place the diamond on the top and see which one you like best. You buy with your eyes. Please post photos! :))
 

krystar

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
Messages
1
I bought a EGLIntl. (hong kong specifically) G VS2 online. just received it today. Compared with a AGS H SI1 that I had in hand, it looks just a hair yellower straight on at the table. I'll be keeping this EGL one and I'll tell you why.

The AGS one is pretty good in my know-enough-to-be-dangerous opinion. but the 1 naked eye visible cloud is dead smack in the middle of the table at the crown height. It isn't immediately visible but in high light and if you were staring at it, you'd see it. HCA score was a 1.6. The EGL one is a H&A and has 2 minor feathers on the side. I couldn't really find it with loupe. This one has a slight blue flourescence. HCA score 1.4. While it's not apples-to-apples because my EGL is a 1.5 and the AGS is a 1.32, I still like the 1.5 EGL better. The EGL was like $140 over my budget but still well within reasonable means. Obviously she likes the EGL one cause it's a 1.5 :razz:

good luck with your search!
 
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