Find your diamond
Find your jewelry
shape
carat
color
clarity

EGL Diamond Help Needed

Status
Not open for further replies. Please create a new topic or request for this thread to be opened.
M

mbtcminn

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
10
I think I have found a good price on a diamond, but I am uneasy as it is an EGL Israel Cert (at least I think so as it is graded Tolkowsky Ideal Cut and as I understand EGL Israel only rates their ideals this way??? The cert number is 2701237XXX) after reading the poor grading occurring from them.

Here are the specs:
2.11 Cts.
8.45-8.37 x 5.01 mm
Total Depth: 59.6%
Table Width: 56%
Crown Height: 14%
Pavilion Depth: 42%
Girdle Thickness: Thin, Faceted
Finish: Ex
Sym: Ex
Culet: None
Clarity: SI2
Color: H

Fluorescence: Very Slight Blue

Comments: “Tolkowsky Ideal Cut”

I ran these numbers in the Pricescope Cut Adviser and it come back excellent all the way down and a Total Visual Performance of 0.7. This may sound stupid (I am just trying to learn), but is this good? My concerns are the low crown angle and it is outside the ideal borders.

Can someone help me with weither this is really an ideal cut or not and what their opinion is. Visually the diamond looks great (eye clean) under a loupe there is quite a few large white inclusions, but again eye clean which is important to us.

Does $12,500 from a local jeweler seem like a good price?

Any advise is much appreciated!
Thanks!
 
Date: 4/23/2007 5:53:50 PM
Author:mbtcminn
I think I have found a good price on a diamond, but I am uneasy as it is an EGL Israel Cert (at least I think so as it is graded Tolkowsky Ideal Cut and as I understand EGL Israel only rates their ideals this way??? The cert number is 2701237XXX) after reading the poor grading occurring from them.

Here are the specs:
2.11 Cts.
8.45-8.37 x 5.01 mm
Total Depth: 59.6%
Table Width: 56%
Crown Height: 14%
Pavilion Depth: 42%
Girdle Thickness: Thin, Faceted
Finish: Ex
Sym: Ex
Culet: None
Clarity: SI2
Color: H

Fluorescence: Very Slight Blue

Comments: “Tolkowsky Ideal Cut”

I ran these numbers in the Pricescope Cut Adviser and it come back excellent all the way down and a Total Visual Performance of 0.7. This may sound stupid (I am just trying to learn), but is this good? My concerns are the low crown angle and it is outside the ideal borders.

Can someone help me with weither this is really an ideal cut or not and what their opinion is. Visually the diamond looks great (eye clean) under a loupe there is quite a few large white inclusions, but again eye clean which is important to us.

Does $12,500 from a local jeweler seem like a good price?

Any advise is much appreciated!
Thanks!
Click to expand...
It's true that EGL Israel is not known for strictness but you've indicated that it's an eye-clean SI2, which is great. Did you see it in several different lighting conditions? If so, how was the color and how was the performance to your eyes?

I'm not able to reconcile the measurements you gave. 14% CH, 42% PD implies a thicker girdle than 'thin' if total depth is 59.6%. Also, a 42% PD correlates to a pavilion angle of about 40.0 degrees; not close enough to be considered a Tolkowsky cut. Do you have a scan of the grading report?
 
I looked at it in bright and dim light and it looked great to me. Color looked on to me against other H colors, but I am not able to distinguish color well.

Yes, based off the numbers the girdle seems like it would be thick (3.6%) based on the number but the cert says thin? One of my concerns. I do have a scan of the grading report, but it is a fax so I don't think it will scan well on the computer
After running the cut analyzer it seems like the CA is 32.5 and PA is 41.8, but that is off their calcs. How did you get 40? I am just trying to learn this stuff the best I can.

Attached is the scan of the grading report

egl4.jpg
 
Date: 4/23/2007 6:47:58 PM
Author: mbtcminn
I looked at it in bright and dim light and it looked great to me. Color looked on to me against other H colors, but I am not able to distinguish color well.

Yes, based off the numbers the girdle seems like it would be thick (3.6%) based on the number but the cert says thin? One of my concerns. I do have a scan of the grading report, but it is a fax so I don't think it will scan well on the computer
After running the cut analyzer it seems like the CA is 32.5 and PA is 41.8, but that is off their calcs. How did you get 40? I am just trying to learn this stuff the best I can.

Attached is the scan of the grading report
Click to expand...
The grading report had the answer. You listed Pavilion Depth as 42% but the report says 43% That makes a bit of a difference.
1.gif
It means the pavilion angle is closer to 40.7 which is near-Tolkowsky and it drops the girdle to the thin-medium range. The crown angle shallower than some consider near-Tolkowsky, but it's not terribly shallow. I bet it's a very bright diamond.
 
You say near Tolkowsky, but why would the cert say "Tolkowsky Ideal Cut" if it wasn''t? Does it pertain to problems of EGL Israel again?
Thank you for your help. We really appreciate it.
 
the numbers are not exactly Tolk, so it is near Tolk. In loose usage, it's somewhat interchangeable, and most people understand each other.
 
Date: 4/23/2007 6:47:58 PM
Author: mbtcminn
I looked at it in bright and dim light and it looked great to me. Color looked on to me against other H colors, but I am not able to distinguish color well.

Yes, based off the numbers the girdle seems like it would be thick (3.6%) based on the number but the cert says thin? One of my concerns. I do have a scan of the grading report, but it is a fax so I don''t think it will scan well on the computer
After running the cut analyzer it seems like the CA is 32.5 and PA is 41.8, but that is off their calcs. How did you get 40? I am just trying to learn this stuff the best I can.

Attached is the scan of the grading report
Click to expand...
For peace of mind, please have them take you with it outdoors to look in actual direct and indirect sunlight too (or, when you buy it, make sure you have a written return availability).
Sometimes the inclusions become blazingly obvious in sunlight. I don''t worry so much with an GIA or AGS graded SI2 if a vendor I trust says a stone is eyeclean (if I can''t see it myself prior to purchase), but based on my past experiences with EGL Israel SI2 grading, their ''SI2'' can have inclusions that really pop out in sunlight! If you see it with your own eyes in sunlight and it is still eyeclean then it sounds like your eyes have already picked a stone you found to be beautiful! Don''t let the #s or the source who graded it completely turn you off, you have the fortune to be able to see the stone yourself and if you love it (and your partner loves it!), then that is all that matters! The Tolk Ideal terminology often gets loosely used.
 
I did look at it today near large windows when it was bright out and I didn''t see anything. Would being outside help?
I just don''t to be the next one taken by an EGL Israel stone as I have read on here.
Thanks.
 
For the heck of it, I know you didn''t ask, but if there is a problem with the one you have, Whiteflash has an EGL (don''t know which EGL, but you can contact them asn ask) listed at $11,641 (PS price) a 2.11 H SI2 that did get 4 stars on their website... (and has basically the same spread as the one you posted)
http://www.whiteflash.com/round_ideal_cut/Round-Ideal-Cut-cut-diamond-131520.htm


or a 2.2 EGL G SI2 for PS price of $11,900 (also with about the same spread)
http://www.whiteflash.com/round/Round-cut-diamond-227202.htm
 
Check it out with sunlight directly shining onto it too - sounds promising!
 
thanks for looking that up. I will give them a call in the morning.
 
My pleasure!
 
Date: 4/23/2007 9:03:23 PM
Author: mbtcminn

You say near Tolkowsky, but why would the cert say 'Tolkowsky Ideal Cut' if it wasn't? Does it pertain to problems of EGL Israel again?
Thank you for your help. We really appreciate it.
Click to expand...

No problem. There is a lot to it.

I see Julie said succinctly what I took a lot longer to write, but since I wrote it, here it is...

Marcel Tolkowski was a mathematician/diamond cutter who calculated “ideal” proportions for the 57 facet round brilliant. His primary proportions were crown angle 34.50 degrees, pavilion Angle 40.75 degrees and 53% table.Tolkowsky’s diamond had a knife-edge girdle though.If we retain his crown/pavilion angles the practical modern interp is 34.50/40.75 with thin-med-stk girdle and 55-57% table.

Not all diamonds are cut with Tolkowsky’s parameters as a goal. In the trade we use the term “near-Tolkowsky” to indicate those diamonds approaching his parameters.

Cut grading systems have been built around Tolkowsky's diamond and may use the word “ideal” (or in this case “Tolkowsky Ideal”) as a grade for diamonds near those parameters... But there are different interpretations about how 'near' the diamond has to be. They can vary from store to store and lab to lab. Therefore the word “ideal” is subject to wide interpretation. Some profesionals and labs are strict, others are much more loose. If you have a slow night, search the term and you can read a lot of threads here on the subject.[/i]
 
Date: 4/23/2007 9:46:34 PM
Author: :)

For the heck of it, I know you didn't ask, but if there is a problem with the one you have, Whiteflash has an EGL (don't know which EGL, but you can contact them asn ask) listed at $11,641 (PS price) a 2.11 H SI2 that did get 4 stars on their website... (and has basically the same spread as the one you posted)
http://www.whiteflash.com/round_ideal_cut/Round-Ideal-Cut-cut-diamond-131520.htm

or a 2.2 EGL G SI2 for PS price of $11,900 (also with about the same spread)
http://www.whiteflash.com/round/Round-cut-diamond-227202.htm
Click to expand...

With appreciation to :) for the endorsement, we don't carry EGL graded diamonds. Both of the above are from the 'virtual' diamond database and are located with suppliers (indicated on the detail page as “call for availability”).

All of our "in-house" selections are AGS and GIA graded. We're able to bring any diamond on the list in, but only AGS & GIA graded diamonds are eligible for our lifetime trade-up and buy-back policies. This is due to the consistency and strictness those labs have demonstrated over time.
 
If the diamond looks good to you (and an eyeclean SI2 is a great find) then go for it! Afterall, you are not going to be wearing the cert around, you''ll be wearing the diamond. Once it''s on your finger it won''t matter at all who graded it/ what the angles were, etc...

A lot of people on this site get knitpicky over the numbers because they are buying diamonds online and *can''t* see them first. You have the fortune of being able to see this diamond (this is great for you)! Therefore, you should go by how it looks to you, not what the piece of paper attached to it says.

Overall, the most important thing is to let your eyes be the judge! Best of luck with the decision and enjoy whatever diamond you end up buying!
 
Date: 4/23/2007 5:53:50 PM
Author:mbtcminn

Does $12,500 from a local jeweler seem like a good price?
Click to expand...
It seems like a very good price if the diamond were indeed an H/SI2.

However, I've never met a correctly graded EGL-Israel diamond in my life (in my opinion). And that is an EGL-Israel report, as the report number starts with the number "2".

If the diamond were just one color grade and one clarity grade off (pretty good for EGL-Israel, in my opinion), you would have an I/I1 which trades at approximately 41% less than an H/SI2. Two color grades and one clarity grade off (more realistic, in my opinion) would be approximately 49% less.

You see where I'm going? Definitely have it checked out by a professional, with a right-of-return period guaranteed for ANY reason.
 
Date: 4/23/2007 11:18:29 PM
Author: havernell

A lot of people on this site get knitpicky over the numbers because they are buying diamonds online and *can't* see them first. You have the fortune of being able to see this diamond
Click to expand...
That's exactly right, and keep in mind that you've found an SI2 that's eye-clean to you; a rare find for EGL SI2 (rare with any lab actually).
 
Thanks again for all your help.
They got 2 more EGL's in today: 2 ct and a 1.5 ct.

Here are the specs:
2.07 Cts.
8.14-8.10 x 5.13 mm
Total Depth: 63.2%
Table Width: 55%
Crown Height: 16%
Pavilion Depth: 43%
Girdle Thickness: Thin, Faceted
Finish: Very Good
Sym: Very Good
Culet: None
Clarity: VS2
Color: I
"Tolk Ideal Cut"

The smaller one:
1.51 Cts.
7.35-7.32 x 4.57 mm
Total Depth: 62.3%
Table Width: 58%
Crown Height: 15%
Pavilion Depth: 44%
Girdle Thickness: Medium
Finish: Very Good
Sym: Very Good
Culet: None
Clarity: VS2
Color: I
"Tolk Ideal Cut"

The reason for the size difference is the girlfriend thinks a 2 ct may be too big. What are your thoughts? Does a 2 ct look too big for an engagement ring. We are not the bling bling couple by any means, I just want something nice and to stay with us forever vs. having to upgrade years down the road.
They seem to have more fire than the original one I mentioned, but I am concerned in that they are I color vs. H. I can't tell the difference, but is it a big deal?
Both are VS2 which seem much cleaner than the eye clean SI2 and are the same price as the SI2 H. What are your thoughts?
The 1.51 seems to score much lower than the others in the HCA analyzer. Why would this be even though it is supposedly "ideal" and looks great?
 
Date: 4/24/2007 5:08:59 PM
Author: mbtcminn
Thanks again for all your help.
They got 2 more EGL's in today: 2 ct and a 1.5 ct.

Here are the specs:
2.07 Cts.
8.14-8.10 x 5.13 mm
Total Depth: 63.2%
Table Width: 55%
Crown Height: 16%
Pavilion Depth: 43%
Girdle Thickness: Thin, Faceted
Finish: Very Good
Sym: Very Good
Culet: None
Clarity: VS2
Color: I
'Tolk Ideal Cut'

The smaller one:
1.51 Cts.
7.35-7.32 x 4.57 mm
Total Depth: 62.3%
Table Width: 58%
Crown Height: 15%
Pavilion Depth: 44%
Girdle Thickness: Medium
Finish: Very Good
Sym: Very Good
Culet: None
Clarity: VS2
Color: I
'Tolk Ideal Cut'

The reason for the size difference is the girlfriend thinks a 2 ct may be too big. What are your thoughts? Does a 2 ct look too big for an engagement ring. We are not the bling bling couple by any means, I just want something nice and to stay with us forever vs. having to upgrade years down the road.
They seem to have more fire than the original one I mentioned, but I am concerned in that they are I color vs. H. I can't tell the difference, but is it a big deal?
Both are VS2 which seem much cleaner than the eye clean SI2 and are the same price as the SI2 H. What are your thoughts?
The 1.51 seems to score much lower than the others in the HCA analyzer. Why would this be even though it is supposedly 'ideal' and looks great?
Click to expand...
2 cts is big, but it's not disgusting big.

For HCA, the numbers are too imprecise. What is the difference between 44% and 43%? Is it actually more like 43.6 and 43.4? And a 2.07 ct I VS2 and a 1.5 ct I VS2 have no business being anywhere near the same price. the 1.5 I VS2 is overpriced if it's $12 500
 
Sorry, I should clarify: 2.07 ct I VS2 = 12,300 and 1.5 I VS2 = 7,300
Is the I to H color difference something we should be concerned about? We can''t tell the difference in color, but will other normal (non-Jeweler) people?
Thanks again.
 
Date: 4/24/2007 5:08:59 PM
Author: mbtcminn
Thanks again for all your help.
They got 2 more EGL''s in today: 2 ct and a 1.5 ct.

Here are the specs:
2.07 Cts.
8.14-8.10 x 5.13 mm
Total Depth: 63.2%
Table Width: 55%
Crown Height: 16%
Pavilion Depth: 43%
Girdle Thickness: Thin, Faceted
Finish: Very Good
Sym: Very Good
Culet: None
Clarity: VS2
Color: I
''Tolk Ideal Cut''

The smaller one:
1.51 Cts.
7.35-7.32 x 4.57 mm
Total Depth: 62.3%
Table Width: 58%
Crown Height: 15%
Pavilion Depth: 44%
Girdle Thickness: Medium
Finish: Very Good
Sym: Very Good
Culet: None
Clarity: VS2
Color: I
''Tolk Ideal Cut''

The reason for the size difference is the girlfriend thinks a 2 ct may be too big. What are your thoughts? Does a 2 ct look too big for an engagement ring. We are not the bling bling couple by any means, I just want something nice and to stay with us forever vs. having to upgrade years down the road.
They seem to have more fire than the original one I mentioned, but I am concerned in that they are I color vs. H. I can''t tell the difference, but is it a big deal?
Both are VS2 which seem much cleaner than the eye clean SI2 and are the same price as the SI2 H. What are your thoughts?
The 1.51 seems to score much lower than the others in the HCA analyzer. Why would this be even though it is supposedly ''ideal'' and looks great?
Click to expand...
Logical, as you''ve swung to the other end of the practical ''depth'' scale. Higher crowns and smaller tables (which often go together) tend to have more fire in the balance, whereas the low-crowned first candidate should have more brightness in the balance, numbers-wise. At 63% depth you''re losing some face-up spread in the 2.07 ct. but if your eyes love the high-crowned look it may be worth it to you.

Julie explained that % for crown and pavilion are not as precise as the angles if you''re seeking sight-unseen input here. Since you are seeing them you are really in the best position to judge. I''d be interested in knowing out of curiousity which you personally prefer from a performance standpoint, after seeing all 3 in various lighting.

H-I grades are the top half of near-colorless. Well-cut AGS & GIA H-I colors can face-up very white. Once you reach I almost everyone can see some hint of tone when viewed from the side against a white background, and J is usually definite from the side. If this is the case with these candidates you have found some very strongly graded EGL diamonds.


Date: 4/24/2007 6:40:12 PM
Author: mbtcminn
Sorry, I should clarify: 2.07 ct I VS2 = 12,300 and 1.5 I VS2 = 7,300
Is the I to H color difference something we should be concerned about? We can''t tell the difference in color, but will other normal (non-Jeweler) people?
Thanks again.
Click to expand...
Does that matter to you?
1.gif
Color perception varies among people - even jewelers.
 
From a performance standpoint, I definitely prefer the 2.07 as it has much more fire vs. the 2.11. The 2.11 is much more bright from the top, but the other has more contrast and fire.

I can''t tell a difference in many color grades face up and that is how I would imagine you would compare them in real life situations vs. from the side in jewelery stores. From the side, all have a tint of color, but I don''t see a difference between them. The G colors I have looked at seem to have a tint of color as well that is why I don''t see much difference in the reasonable price color grades (G-I). I just can see spending the big $ to go to the E-F ranges. But who am I to say since I am just learning this.
 
Date: 4/24/2007 7:24:23 PM
Author: mbtcminn

From a performance standpoint, I definitely prefer the 2.07 as it has much more fire vs. the 2.11. The 2.11 is much more bright from the top, but the other has more contrast and fire.
Click to expand...
Your description makes perfect sense. Perhaps you have discovered a personal taste for round brilliants with high crowns & more fire in the balance, which is useful to know. To confirm that you might try comparing the 2.07 to some well-cut '60/60' makes (rounds with tables and depth both near 60%) of similar size/color, since they often have even lower crowns and more brightness in the balance than the 2.11.



I can't tell a difference in many color grades face up and that is how I would imagine you would compare them in real life situations vs. from the side in jewelery stores. From the side, all have a tint of color, but I don't see a difference between them. The G colors I have looked at seem to have a tint of color as well that is why I don't see much difference in the reasonable price color grades (G-I). I just can see spending the big $ to go to the E-F ranges. But who am I to say since I am just learning this.
Click to expand...
From the way you describe G here it sounds like a color grading environment that is less strict than GIA/AGS. That's no problem as long as you have no problem with it. Thanks for the updates.
 
Status
Not open for further replies. Please create a new topic or request for this thread to be opened.
GET 3 FREE HCA RESULTS JOIN THE FORUM. ASK FOR HELP
Jewelry Blog
PriceScope-Concierge-Ad
Find prime cuts.
Top