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Education is dangerous?

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Pennells

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 24, 2005
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Hi everyone,

I haven't posted much here but I sure have learnt a lot from your knowledgable selves :)

I thought you might be interested in an email conversation I have just had with a diamond vendor here in New Zealand. I won't mention the name because.. well.. I'm a nice person.. but it's interesting nonetheless. I hope I haven't posted this in the wrong place!

Warning: it's long.

It has been edited only to remove the vendor's name and contact info; to put the conversation in chronological order; and to highlight the comment i found most interesting..

------------------------------------------------------
Hi,

Well my requirements have changed somewhat since we last spoke! I am now looking for a ~1ct AGS-0 Princess stone, eye-clean, and J in colour.



Are you expecting to receive any of the AGS-0 princesses at all in the future?




Cheers,
Penny
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Hi Penny,
An AGS 0 is an Ideal cut round diamond and not the reserve of the square modified brilliant commonly known as the princess. The American Gemmological Society (AGS) uses a number score system to rank the diamond light performance and a zero scores is the best but this is applied to round brilliants, typically the best cut for princesses is excellent which is the same as the GIA (Gem Inst America).

Why would you want an ideal or excellent cut but a poorly coloured J in a Si clarity? An excellent cut is not going to perform if there are many inclusions even eye clean Si1 is riddled with inclusions under magnification and these inclusions make the excellent cut perform like a good cut. Why pay for an excellent when its not going to perform like an excellent? Similarly, a J colour diamonds light return is going to be thwarted by the tint of yellow that a J possesses. To state the obvious why have an excellent cut but poor everything else?
We would recommend a balance perhaps, G colour, VS2 with an excellent cut. I have checked our database of well over 50,000 certified diamonds an we have 41 AGS princess cut diamonds available, can you inform your carat size and budget and I'll send some examples to you. You may want to go to a quality high street jewellery store and ask to see their AGS princess cut diamonds before we send lists of diamonds for you to review as this will conserve our time and we can then deliver exactly what you require at the best price.

Kind regards;


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Hi,

I am referring the new AGS-0 grading which is now performance-based as opposed to proportions-based, and which does in fact apply to princess cuts. AGS began issuing reports under the new grading on May 1st of this year.



See this link for more info: http://www.agslab.com/press0305_01.html


Penny
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Penny,
The AGS grade an absolute tiny amount of the worlds gem quality diamonds and mainly in the US market (see graphs). Diamond cutters just don't use their services and its from these cutting houses that the world buys. The tiny amount of diamonds that AGS certify are mainly investment quality or extremely high quality not J colour, Si1 quality! What makes you think a J colour, Si1 clarity diamond will have every facet mapped and obtain a zero rating? If so the AGS cost would make the diamond a disproportionately high cost to a low quality, low value diamond and it would be uneconomical. Since May 1st AGS would have graded a miniscule amount of round diamonds let alone princess cuts and at a zero rating well the numbers are pathetically small so stop trying to achieve the impossible. Educating yourself into every detail of buying a diamond can be dangerous and we urge people to get back to the basics which is a harmonious balance of colour, clarity and cut around your budget to achieve a desired carat size. Like I said we have 41 AGS certified princess diamonds and none are J, Si1 quality so if you revise your characteristics and improve your quality we might be able to help, good luck.
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Am I overreacting to be feeling a little insulted by this guy?
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Cheers,
Penny
 
I don''t think he liked it that you one up''ed him on the AGS.

I''m not sure if I would be offended. I think he is expressing frustration.
He may have worded his replies poorly especially "What makes you think a J colour, Si1 clarity diamond will have every facet mapped and obtain a zero rating?" because he seems to be on the defense. Of course you would be more open to a response such as, Generally a J Si1 would not receive an AGS zero rating, however we would be happy to show you any of our 15 stones that we think meet the zero rating standards.

"Like I said we have 41 AGS certified princess diamonds and none are J, Si1 quality so if you revise your characteristics and improve your quality we might be able to help, good luck."
Unless you are willing to bend your standards its time to find a new vendor, which he is openly inviting you to do.

This guy may have some diamonds that are worth looking at but he is *ahem* a little rough around the edges.
 
Hello Pennels,

I don''t think you are over reacting. In your shoes I would tell him goodbye and look elsewhere !!

I would recommend contacting some of the PS vendors unless you are set on buying local (NZ).

I''m in Australia and recently tried to purchase some stud earrings locally, after brushing up on diamonds here at PS.
I gave up in the end and purchased them over the internet.
I had no hassles, infact the vendors bent over backwards to meet my requirements.
The cost, even allowing for freight, insurance and GST is approxiamately two thirds of what I would have to pay here assuming I could have found them.

Good Luck

rainbow
 
My guess if you are set on an AGS-0 J SI1 Princess you may have a while to wait.

I think his message about a little flexibility isn't unfair. At times he seems to be steering you toward things he might actually stock, but I think he partially is trying to broaden the criteria to things that might be more easily obtained. Maybe still AGS-0 but slightly higher in clarity or color? A small jump might not change the budget all that much.

The point about inclusions working against some of the benefits of cut has been mentioned elsewhere a few times. Inclusions block or scatter light. Maybe so much you would notice and care about it, maybe not. SI1 can be a wide range of things. Plus, depending on how eye-clean the SI1 is, you may not be pleased with that aspect.

(though the better the cut, the better the stone will face up in terms of color. A ideal J might look like an average G, possibily when maounted and viewed normally. (More so for RB than princess? Others will know, I'm a RB student only.))

In my experience, a number of stores, particularly those that work on memo, just don't want to get into talking with you about AGS ideal stones. Something doesn't work out in thier favor. Maybe their price is out of line, maybe their margin is lower, maybe they don't want to spend the time to wait for one to turn up.

His advice about harmonious balance is fine, but it's your balance. If you want AGS-0 Princess, it may make your life mroe difficult, but that doesn't mean you have to give it up. But do then consider what you might have to trade in change, an increase or variation in clarity or color or price or degree of effort involved in finding the diamond (including time spent).

From reading elsewhere, you'll notice that AGS cut graded princesses are a very new thing. There just can't be that many of them around out there. Let alone on islands in the South Pacific, beautiful as they are. (Diamonds? Hell, buy some wine and a boat and go sailing. :) )

You might have better luck with finding a stone that meets a narrow set of criteria over the internet, simply because you can serach the stones yourself and adjust your terms as you see fit. You will still need to know what you are looking at and who you are dealing with, but I don't think your local guy is all that bad. He's trying to defend what he has to offer, but he's not giving you the outright horse-hockey that some lesser retailers throw at consumers.

If you like him otherwise, level with him and see what he comes back with. In the meantime, you can search on your own and see what turns up.
 
Pennells

I am just a consumer too. I am writing to ask if you have ever seen a J colour diamond in person. The reason I write is because I once bought a J colour diamond from a local jeweller, it was beautifully cut in that I could see the arrows but was not a H&A ideal cut. It was a 0.70 and at that time was a big looking diamond to me, I am in the UK. I liked the size and it was a very very clean VS diamond.

At the time my sister was staying with me on holiday and was with me, I asked her in the store if it looked white to her and she said it did. We come back to my house and at night are sitting under the normal light bulb in the bedroom she is staying in and I say let me see it compared to your diamond. Well her diamond is a marquise and 0.62 carat weight G colour. What a difference I saw my diamond just looked so warm like antiquey next to hers and that made my mind up.

The jeweller graciously let me return my ring and I knew if I got a new diamond then it would be a lot smaller so I am waiting longer. I have never seen ideal cut as I said but I would never buy a J colour because of the way it looked to me under night time light bulb. That same diamond when in my jewellery box during the daylight looked the same as my smaller G colour diamonds but totally different at night.
 
Hi Pennells
Thanks for posting a copy of the correspondence.

It had me openly laughing reading it! My husband wanted to know what was up.
Great after a stressful day at work.

PS He would tend to agree with Lostdog: "Diamonds? Hell, buy some wine and a boat and go sailing." I would persist in finding the princess you want. Just be prepared for a possible long wait. I have had no joy getting a response from any internet vendors about the availability of AGS 0 princesses.
 
An AGS 0 is an Ideal cut round diamond and not the reserve of the square modified brilliant commonly known as the princess. The American Gemmological Society (AGS) uses a number score system to rank the diamond light performance and a zero scores is the best but this is applied to round brilliants, typically the best cut for princesses is excellent which is the same as the GIA (Gem Inst America).

An excellent cut is not going to perform if there are many inclusions even eye clean Si1 is riddled with inclusions under magnification and these inclusions make the excellent cut perform like a good cut.
We would recommend a balance perhaps, G colour, VS2 with an excellent cut.

The AGS grade an absolute tiny amount of the worlds gem quality diamonds and mainly in the US market (see graphs). Diamond cutters just don''t use their services and its from these cutting houses that the world buys. The tiny amount of diamonds that AGS certify are mainly investment quality or extremely high quality not J colour, Si1 quality!
Click to expand...
He''s just speaking out of his rear. An SI1 diamond is going to be "riddled" with inclusions that negate its light return, whereas a VS2 clarity diamond, just one higher on the clarity scale, will be fine?

And what''s this about not knowing about the new AGS cut grades for fancy shapes, and then making it sound like GIA assigns an "excellent" cut to fancies?

I''m sorry, but I know that we, as consumers, often give recommendations on color and clarity. But as a vendor, your job is to provide what the consumer wants, whether it''s D IF or J SI1. I''d prefer a little honesty from him too. I''m sorry, but I just don''t have any J SI1''s available to me. I''ll do my best to find something similar.
 
It is possible that this person has come by some of his impressions honestly. There are those who believe that finish grades (polish/sym) translate into a cut judgment. And of course the old 60/60 rule is still widely proliferated. Like others, I suspect the information about the grading of princess cuts was new to him.

"The tiny amount of diamonds that AGS certify are mainly investment quality or extremely high quality not J colour, Si1 quality! What makes you think a J colour, Si1 clarity diamond will have every facet mapped and obtain a zero rating? If so the AGS cost would make the diamond a disproportionately high cost to a low quality, low value diamond and it would be uneconomical. Since May 1st AGS would have graded a miniscule amount of round diamonds let alone princess cuts and at a zero rating well the numbers are pathetically small so stop trying to achieve the impossible"

I'd suggest that he is not trying to be deceptive - he is just working with dated (inaccurate) information. Not everyone spends time in the pipeline of current info. Many traditional jewelers operate on notions passed to them from those who came before. GIA made its first splash in the 1950s. AGS didn't begin grading until 1996, and were considered an 'upstart' lab by many at the time... Since that time, AGS' presence has become a mainstay and has pushed the envelope in terms of standards and science for all labs - but not every gray-bearded jeweler knows that (or feels that way).

It doesn't change the fact that this info is wrong, but perhaps it explains his statements.
 

"The tiny amount of diamonds that AGS certify are mainly investment quality or extremely high quality not J colour, Si1 quality! What makes you think a J colour, Si1 clarity diamond will have every facet mapped and obtain a zero rating? If so the AGS cost would make the diamond a disproportionately high cost to a low quality, low value diamond and it would be uneconomical. Since May 1st AGS would have graded a miniscule amount of round diamonds let alone princess cuts and at a zero rating well the numbers are pathetically small so stop trying to achieve the impossible"


-----------------------

Wow! What a preposterous statement. The cost to grade a J-SI1 clarity diamond is no more than that to grade the D-IF diamond of the same size. Also the statement that the SI1 would be riddled with inclusions causing even ideal cut stones to proform as if they were poorly cut is completely ridicules.

Sorry, but this vendor does not meet "keeping up with current education" guidelines. As John Quixote so well put it he probably does not know that he is talking absolute trash, it probably came from someone in his organization who also does not know. It is unfortunate that so few jewelers make even the attempt to stay current.

Wink
 
P.S. If you think education is dangerous, try ignorance!
 
I believe that the heart of the issue, or at least what is bothering me the most about this is that this vendor is insulting her for actually doing some research and being educated about what she is about to drop lots of money on. How arrogant! This is precisely my problem with many vendors, especially B&M''s, that they are downright ignorant and scared of consumer knowledge. Sometimes I really feel like they would prefer if we knew next to nothing. I''m sorry, but if I''m going to spend thousands of dollars, you bet your a** that I''m going to do some research and educate myself first! If a vendor disagree with what you are saying, that''s fine, they have that right, and perhaps in some situations they (the vendor) may actually be right. However, to tell a perspective client IN WRITING that education can be dangerous is a downright shame and is completely in bad taste. If that had happened to me, they would have lost my sale, right there and then! I take my business to someone who appreciates my knowledge and is willing to work with me as a team on that.

When are vendors going to realize this? Because until they do, people are going to continue to give their business to online places. Consumers are willing to spend a little extra, however this will only happen when we feel that we are getting trust and value in return from a business.
 
Maybe it depends on what you think that vendor is saying. Learning about diamonds isn''t dangerous. Applying that knowledge very narrowly may not be work out in your favor. If all your reseach results in getting married to a certain set of numbers and grades as the only diamond that is beautiful enough, maybe all the right lessons haven''t been learned.
 
no no, I know what you are saying lostdog. I wasn''t saying that a consumer has to be all about the numbers and nothing more. I do understand that it is frustrating for a vendor to deal with an educated consumer that wants the right set of numbers and little else. But I don''t think it is too much to ask that a reasonable consumer, one who wants decent numbers as well as breathtaking visual beauty, get what they ask for without being insulted over their knowledge, or get a huffy puffy salesperson. I''ve read stories here on PS of consumers who were actually yelled at and insulted by salespeople simply because they asked for sarin reports. This is in bad taste, and I think that Pennells vendor, while he didn''t shout or outright insult, did make some slightly rude comments and should not get a sale from her.
 
I don''t know. Let me pose this question. What are some of your day-jobs? How would you like if someone basically told you "look - I''m an internet expert on XYZ, so I''m more informed than you on this matter"

Be it a real estate deal, car deal, whatever. Personally, I would find it a touch offensive.

Rick
 
Date: 6/30/2005 5:58:34 PM
Author: lostdog

Maybe it depends on what you think that vendor is saying. Learning about diamonds isn''t dangerous. Applying that knowledge very narrowly may not be work out in your favor. If all your reseach results in getting married to a certain set of numbers and grades as the only diamond that is beautiful enough, maybe all the right lessons haven''t been learned.
Click to expand...

LOL! I had a client come in last weekend who absolutely had to have a G-VS2 or better, did not care too much about the cut. He spent about three hours with me on Saturday and left thanking me for letting him have a I-SI1 Hearts and Arrows that was WAY more beautiful than the G-VS2''s he had been looking at. (Yes, he came in, looked, went out, looked and came back VERY happy to buy a stone that was WAY too low on his book learning chart.)

Education is a good start, but talking with an educated vendor is the way to follow up that education. He got a bigger stone than he thought he could afford for $700 less than his budget that is more beautiful than what he thought he could have. Education is a beautiful thing when used properly. It is REQUIRED of the vendor and a great idea on the part of the buyer. The buyer can be uneducated if he is dealing with the right vendor. I think you know my opinion of what happens to the uneducated buyer with the vendor discussed earlier!

Wink
 
Not every consumer goes into a jewelry store thinking that they know more about diamonds than the salesperson. In fact, hardly any do. I know I don''t. I am a student at the GIA who recently attained her AJP, now going after her GG, and is looking for work in the jewelry industry. However, I don''t pretend to know everything.

I think that as a salesperson, you''re job is to sell. Also, to try and form a relationship with your customer. Find out what they want and why they want it. Learn about their likes and dislikes, and tailor your presentation to that. If they are misinformed about something, let them know in a polite and friendly manner, and have a discussion about the merchandise or diamonds or whatever. This needn''t take all day, a good salesperson can do this, even with not-friendly-customers, though of course, it''s not possible all the time. But under no circumstance should the consumer be insulted or belittled, even if they are wrong. Maybe I''m being naive, but I don''t think this is too much to expect.
 
Wink, that''s preciscely what I was trying to say to rickyrockranger! Thank you for stating it better than I could!
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Not to throw the baby out with the bath water ...

There are some elements of truth to his response however it is also riddled with misinformation.


Hi Penny,
An AGS 0 is an Ideal cut round diamond and not the reserve of the square modified brilliant commonly known as the princess. The American Gemmological Society (AGS) uses a number score system to rank the diamond light performance and a zero scores is the best but this is applied to round brilliants, typically the best cut for princesses is excellent which is the same as the GIA (Gem Inst America).
Click to expand...
You did a good job of correcting the ignorance here. ;)


Why would you want an ideal or excellent cut but a poorly coloured J in a Si clarity? An excellent cut is not going to perform if there are many inclusions even eye clean Si1 is riddled with inclusions under magnification and these inclusions make the excellent cut perform like a good cut. Why pay for an excellent when its not going to perform like an excellent? Similarly, a J colour diamonds light return is going to be thwarted by the tint of yellow that a J possesses. To state the obvious why have an excellent cut but poor everything else?

Click to expand...
As the other posters have pointed out an SI1 is not "riddled" with inclusions. Yes they are notable under magnification but not to the point that they obscure light transmission within the diamond. If so, its so infintesimal that its not seen with the eye. "Riddled with inclusions" best describes diamonds of the I1, I2 or I3 grades.

J color diamond, when coupled with superior optics IS A BEAUTIFUL STONE. A recent poster on this forum who came to our store and viewed many princess cuts purchased exactly what you''re looking for ... a J SI1 and he couldn''t believe how white the stone faced up. Why? Superior optics do a heckuva job neutralizing color. I''d rather sell a J colored princess cut with superior optics ANY DAY than a G or H diamond with mediocre contrast, brightness and dispersion.


Penny,
The AGS grade an absolute tiny amount of the worlds gem quality diamonds and mainly in the US market (see graphs). Diamond cutters just don''t use their services and its from these cutting houses that the world buys.
Click to expand...
In the realm of princess cuts this is very true. I just performed a random search for princess cuts J in color, VS2 - SI1 in clarity and in the 1st 100 stones that came up not one is lab graded by AGS. The greater majority of them were EGL graded. It will be extremely difficult for you to locate an AGS J SI1 AGS "0" stone. It is however possible to find a GIA graded princess cut with AGS ideal proportions if you work with a vendor who can determine what sets of proportions produce the ideal grade and optics. There aren''t many but there are some who can.


The tiny amount of diamonds that AGS certify are mainly investment quality or extremely high quality not J colour, Si1 quality! What makes you think a J colour, Si1 clarity diamond will have every facet mapped and obtain a zero rating? If so the AGS cost would make the diamond a disproportionately high cost to a low quality, low value diamond and it would be uneconomical.

Click to expand...
This is actually funny. AGS issues lab reports for diamonds of ANY clarity/color. As Wink pointed out it doesn''t cost any more or less than a D IF.
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Since May 1st AGS would have graded a miniscule amount of round diamonds let alone princess cuts and at a zero rating well the numbers are pathetically small so stop trying to achieve the impossible. Educating yourself into every detail of buying a diamond can be dangerous and we urge people to get back to the basics which is a harmonious balance of colour, clarity and cut around your budget to achieve a desired carat size. Like I said we have 41 AGS certified princess diamonds and none are J, Si1 quality so if you revise your characteristics and improve your quality we might be able to help, good luck.

Click to expand...
LOL... back to basics ... forget about details?!?!? Duh... it is these details that go into determining both value and beauty. With the new AGS system, to determine an "ideal" grade, at least two sets of crown angles and 2 sets of pavilion angles need to be determined not to mention chevrons, variances, etc. We don''t want you to lose hope on your search Penny so let me tell you that there are a few vendors who have the means to pick princess cuts with AGS ideal proportions & light performance that may not necessarily have AGS reports (but GIA). An article I''m working on at the moment is "how to determine if a princess cut meets AGS ideal standards". The reason is because, as this jeweler has rightfully said, most labs do not use AGS for princess cuts and even with their new cut grading implemented, I still do not anticipate most of these factories sending their wares to AGS only to display to the public HOW NOT IDEAL the majority of the goods are.

Good luck. If you have any other questions pertaining to princess cuts or would like more details on how to determine if a non AGS princess cut has AGS ideal proportions pm or email me and I''ll fill you in with the rest of the details.

Kind regards,
 
Date: 6/30/2005 5:17:51 PM
Author: IrishEyes
I believe that the heart of the issue, or at least what is bothering me the most about this is that this vendor is insulting her for actually doing some research and being educated about what she is about to drop lots of money on. How arrogant! This is precisely my problem with many vendors, especially B&M''s, that they are downright ignorant and scared of consumer knowledge. Sometimes I really feel like they would prefer if we knew next to nothing. I''m sorry, but if I''m going to spend thousands of dollars, you bet your a** that I''m going to do some research and educate myself first! If a vendor disagree with what you are saying, that''s fine, they have that right, and perhaps in some situations they (the vendor) may actually be right. However, to tell a perspective client IN WRITING that education can be dangerous is a downright shame and is completely in bad taste. If that had happened to me, they would have lost my sale, right there and then! I take my business to someone who appreciates my knowledge and is willing to work with me as a team on that.

When are vendors going to realize this? Because until they do, people are going to continue to give their business to online places. Consumers are willing to spend a little extra, however this will only happen when we feel that we are getting trust and value in return from a business.
Click to expand...
Well put.
 
Date: 6/30/2005 5:58:34 PM
Author: lostdog

Maybe it depends on what you think that vendor is saying. Learning about diamonds isn''t dangerous. Applying that knowledge very narrowly may not be work out in your favor. If all your reseach results in getting married to a certain set of numbers and grades as the only diamond that is beautiful enough, maybe all the right lessons haven''t been learned.
Click to expand...

The beautiful thing about the system, IMO is that it allows for MANY SETS of proportions. Yes a person shouldn''t get tunnell vision on ONE particular set of numbers but should at least be open to stones that do fall within the ideal range.. at least to get the optics. The polish/symmetry factors on a princess cut ... as long as they are acceptable is good, but don''t compromise the optics. That''s what sings to her at the end of the day. :)
 
Date: 6/30/2005 6:39:09 PM
Author: IrishEyes
Not every consumer goes into a jewelry store thinking that they know more about diamonds than the salesperson. In fact, hardly any do. I know I don''t. I am a student at the GIA who recently attained her AJP, now going after her GG, and is looking for work in the jewelry industry. However, I don''t pretend to know everything.

I think that as a salesperson, you''re job is to sell. Also, to try and form a relationship with your customer. Find out what they want and why they want it. Learn about their likes and dislikes, and tailor your presentation to that. If they are misinformed about something, let them know in a polite and friendly manner, and have a discussion about the merchandise or diamonds or whatever. This needn''t take all day, a good salesperson can do this, even with not-friendly-customers, though of course, it''s not possible all the time. But under no circumstance should the consumer be insulted or belittled, even if they are wrong. Maybe I''m being naive, but I don''t think this is too much to expect.
Click to expand...
that''s the problem with "salesperson" he/she could of been selling vacuum cleaners last week. don''t be surprise, if you the consumer has more knowledge then the "jewelry salesperson".
 
I know what you are saying, DF. And you''re right, that is a problem. Unfortantely, alot of stores, especially your everyday, lower-end ones are looking for anyone to sell. It''s been my experience, and I could be mistaken, that the better quality stores, especially the ones that go way back with their history, are looking for people who are qualified, educated and knowledgeable on jewelry and diamonds to sell. But yes, many times you will run into someone who was selling shoes last week now trying to sell you a diamond....
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I agree if you are dealing with some mall store sales clerk. However, the original post was about a diamond vendor - so I''ll ask the original poster - was he the business owner?
 
"Since May 1st AGS would have graded a miniscule amount of round diamonds let alone princess cuts and at a zero rating well the numbers are pathetically small so stop trying to achieve the impossible. Educating yourself into every detail of buying a diamond can be dangerous"

Personally, as a consumer (aside from some other misinformation presented) this particular statement would have sealed the deal for me. I find it disheartening when professionals lag behind the times so to speak and do not take the time to research and remain current on their industry. Many times I have not given business to poorly informed salespeople (at car dealerships and jewelery stores mainly). I am not a jeweler by any means but if I (as a consumer) can do some research on the internet for a week and go into a jewelery store and know more than the individuals working in the store....ummm houston we have a problem! As a matter of fact I called a particular large internet dealer today requesting sarin info on a 3 carat princess cut stone, and this so-called diamond expert (which he called himself) proceeded to explain to me in great detail how useless the sarin report is and all the information I need to make a decision about the "beauty" of the stone is in the GIA report...
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Needless to say I politely said "thank you" and hung up. As a professional, if someone provides me with information that is useful to me in my trade, I would definitely take note to do more research on it later. Not become defensive and insulting as this particular salesperson did. I say take your energy, time and money elsewhere!
 
Ever see a hazy AGS0 Sarin 0? I did. UGLY!
 
Wow you guys, what a response! Thanks so much for taking the time to read my original post, and to respond in such volume
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I was already 95% decided to look in the US for my stone, but thought I''d see what a local vendor (a bit of a misnomer - it''s actually an Australian company) could do for me as well. Suffice it to say that I am now 100% decided to look in the US.

I''ll try and respond to all the comments/questions that were directed at me, but forgive me if I miss any:


Date: 6/30/2005 5:01:48 AM
Author: Pyramid
I am just a consumer too. I am writing to ask if you have ever seen a J colour diamond in person.
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Yes I have seen well-cut J-coloured stones in person. Most of them looked white to me! But I also have also seen some less-well cut (or perhaps they were just lower-end) Js and I confess I still quite liked the warmth I saw in them. This is the reason I want a J - it is a good way for me to maximise size but still get a beautiful (to me at least!) stone within my budget.


Date: 6/30/2005 5:17:55 AM
Author: asblackrock
It had me openly laughing reading it! My husband wanted to know what was up.
Great after a stressful day at work.
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Excellent! I''m glad someone else found it hilarious as well!
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Date: 6/30/2005 8:25:28 AM
Author: phoenixgirl
But as a vendor, your job is to provide what the consumer wants, whether it''s D IF or J SI1.
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Exactly what I also believe. Belittling my preferences has only succeeded in putting me off him.


Date: 6/30/2005 11:48:00 AM
Author: JohnQuixote
I''d suggest that he is not trying to be deceptive - he is just working with dated (inaccurate) information.
.....
It doesn''t change the fact that this info is wrong, but perhaps it explains his statements.
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Indeed, you may be right. Benefit of the doubt and all that... but I still think he''s an arse for being so aggressive
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Date: 6/30/2005 12:07:44 PM
Author: Wink
P.S. If you think education is dangerous, try ignorance!
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I agree. His ignorance (along with his aggression) lost him a decent sale by NZ standards. Dangerous indeed.


Date: 6/30/2005 6:21:16 PM
Author: rickyrockranger
I don''t know. Let me pose this question. What are some of your day-jobs? How would you like if someone basically told you ''look - I''m an internet expert on XYZ, so I''m more informed than you on this matter''

Be it a real estate deal, car deal, whatever. Personally, I would find it a touch offensive.

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Rick, I too would find it offensive. But all I did was ask if he was expecting any AGS-0 princesses in the future, and when he implied I was an idiot by applying RB grading to princesses I pointed out the truth to him. Were the situations reversed I wouldn''t be offended by that. But then I wouldn''t have "spoken" to him in the way he first "spoke" to me - so it''s a moot point I guess.

And to answer your later question - the vendor appears to be the sole "man-in-charge" of this company''s operations in New Zealand.


Date: 6/30/2005 7:01:56 PM
Author: Rhino
The reason is because, as this jeweler has rightfully said, most labs do not use AGS for princess cuts and even with their new cut grading implemented, I still do not anticipate most of these factories sending their wares to AGS only to display to the public HOW NOT IDEAL the majority of the goods are.
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So true! Oh and just to clarify - I''m not specifically looking for an AGS-0 stone as such - I just want a dazzler. I only asked this vendor about AGS-0 princesses in the first place because they do not do any light-performance tests on their stones (and I''m not buying sight-unseen just from someone''s word!). P.S. love your website Rhino - I spend many hours there drooling :)

Oh, and IrishEyes & LLL- I agree with EVERYTHING you guys said!


Thanks again for your responses everyone :) The search continues!
 
Pennells:

If you want a J SI1 (eyeclean) Princess, AGS 0 (or something close). You can have one. I do warn you that you may have to wait a bit - as they may be somewhat rare. But that does not mean you should give up on your dream.

I wanted a matched set of Super ideal Cut RB 1/4 carat diamond, nominally G VS2, with MB Fluoresence.

High light return quality diamonds (good Ideal Scope image, etc) at the 1/4 carat size range are very rare (Chriss at AGA had never seen one before... Much less a matched set when I sent them in for appraisial).

These are intended to mate with a larger RB diamond for a future engagement ring (if she ever says yes).

No one had them, not even close. Hard to find; most vendors told me my concept was rediculous - almost no (verry verry few) small diamonds would even qualify - before the concept of MB flouresence.

Yet, I outlined my spec''s (and tolerences) and the final concept for the ring and sent it to a half dozen vendors. Only 2 were willing to search & watch for them (NiceIce & Good Old Gold), and the rest of the vendors all dropped out within a day. I was advised that it could take months to find them.

Several months later I owned an amazing matched pair of 1/4 carat super ideal cut RB G VS2 diamonds with MB fluoresence.

So, don''t give up what you want; don''t let the naysayers stomp you into accepting less.

That being said. It might be the case that should you see some truely great diamonds and compare - that you might change what you are willing to accept.

Planning a vacation to the US soon? I can recommend several vendors where you would probably have the chance to see a selection of truely well cut princess diamonds.

Also, check out the links on the Infinity diamond page (Paul''s place); and see if their are any representatives in your part of the world.

Perry
 
Why would you insist on a matched pair of G color stones with MB?
 
Date: 6/30/2005 12:07:44 PM
Author: Wink
P.S. If you think education is dangerous, try ignorance!
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Well said WINK....!!!!

The only comment I have is that IGNORANCE (unfortunately) is BLISS!



Rockdoc
 
Rickrockranger:

Have you ever seen a diamond with MB or stronger flouesence in a nightclub that has a blacklight component in their lighting (which is not that uncommon for lighting)... They stand out across the entire room.

So why not build a ring that will look dazzling in all situations.

Perry
 
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