ebay, EGL (Israel) and other myths - a purchase experience

[EZ-Monet]

Greetings,

I recently successfully bid for (on ebay) and thus purchased a Round Brilliant Diamond from Norman Goodman & Co., in L.A., (100% Positive Feedback rating.) The stone was EGL (Israel) certified.
This information I am sure gives many of you, especially the regulars on this excellent forum some pause.

As it is written..."be not afraid" (just be careful.)

Myth#1: Stay away from ebay dealers.
My experience with this diamond, and others, is that if you are careful about who you are doing business with as well as what you are buying, you can do exceptionally well on ebay. Norman Goodman & Co., is a family-owned (truly) and managed B&M (obviously with an Internet presence,) established in 1946. They (Howard Goodman) handled this purchase, including several email inquiries in a thoroughly professional and helpful manner. I highly commend and recommend them. Although the statistics on my stone are exceptional (later,) you must understand that NG&Co., do not sell only exceptional quality diamonds; therefore, due diligence as to your individual stone of interest is advised.
The price I paid for my diamond was $5,200.00.

Myth#2: EGL (Israel) is loose on their certifications.
My experience is that although EGL (Israel & other locations) may be suspect, they also can be very accurate and ethical. In fact, ALL certification sources must be viewed with a measure of skepticism, as the evaluation process itself is inherently subjective.
Following my purchase, I had the stone appraised and verified by D. Atlas & Co., in Philadelphia, P.A., (parent of Accredited Gem Appraisers, the developers of the "AGA Cut Grade System") while in transit to Mark Morrell. This independent evaluation (actually more than that) verified every relevant aspect of the EGL (Israel) certification.

So, what did I get for my $5,200.00?

1.2 Ct. H VS1 Round Brilliant
6.97 - 6.94 x 4.14 mm.
Depth: 59.6%, Table: 58%, Crown Height: 14%, Pavilion Depth: 43%
Girdle: Medium, Faceted
Polish: Excellent, Symmetry: Excellent, Culet: None, Graining: Nil, Fouorescence: None
Cut: EGL "Excellent Ideal"
HCA: 0.8 - Excellent/Excellent/Excellent/Excellent (how often do you see that?)
AGA Cut Grade 1B - American Ideal Cut (Crown Height limit 14.3% for Cut Grade 1A)
Visual Performance: Stunning

In closing, let me say that I am convinced that Howard Goodman is not about to tarnish his family and/or business reputation over the sale of ANY stone. I find his prices to be exceptional, and I feel NG&Co., deserve the support of this forum.
EZ-Monet

 

[denverappraiser]

Dean,

It’s wonderful to hear your success story.

Ebay is not, by it’s nature, a problem. There are excellent deals to be had there both from dealers and from consumers. The reason that people are so nervous about the online auctions (and most storefront auctions) is that it’s so difficult to separate the good from the bad and to know exactly what you are buying. The character and credibility of the vendor is vastly more important than the venue that they choose to contact their customers.

EGL-Israel reports present a very similar problem. They are not, by definition, wrong and often present an excellent analysis. Since they are discounted in the market because of the EGL paper, it is possible to buy an excellent stone for a better price by going this route than through one of the ‘better’ labs. As with ebay, the difficulty is in knowing exactly what you are buying. Your headline suggests that you are happy with two companies; ebay and EGL-Israel. Both of those can be a minefield which you successfully navigated with the assistance of two completely different companies;

Norman Goodman & Co and David Atlas & Co.

I would suggest that most of the kudos should be towards those two.

Neil Beaty, GG ISA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[ame]

WOW. I demand photos.

Finally a story about a positive ebay experience (I hate ebay). Congrats on that great find.

 

[nicknomo]

I don't think that there is anyone disputing that you can potentially find a great deal this way. I think what everyone knows is that there is a higher (and sometimes a pretty good) chance you will get ripped off. If the chances were 50/50 or even 60/40 of not getting ripped off/getting ripped off, I'd say they are way too high. It is usually a gamble of a few thousand dollars. Thats why I always reccommend people stay away from them.. It's not guarenteed that they will get screwed, it's a high likelihood that they will get screwed.

Of course some circumstances are more conducive to such things than others.

 

[strmrdr]

Using the right people and just a little luck I could get an uncerted stone that is every bit as good as the best on the pricescope search engine but does that mean that everyone would be able too?
Nope.

 

[Jennifer5973]

I have an incredible EGL Israel stone that not only checked out but out-performs the technically more "perfect" stone I had before. (for pics, including some with 15X magnification, see matchy poo thread in SMTR)

when my jeweler first said it was EGL Israel, I was like "Nope. No way." But like you, this is a local guy we have a very solid--and proven-- relationship with for years who has never let us down. He talked to me openly about EGL concerns but he said he doesn't buy off the papers--he looks at the stone first, then the paper...he said he would not have bought the stone had he not felt the paper was very much on. The person who appraised the stone not only felt the cert was accurate but that the clarity was conservative. I trusted him first, not the EGL cert and I was not disappointed.

I would say the "moral of the story" is that if you see a great stone with EGL paper, do your homework, use an appraiser and you may end up with a fabulous deal. The fact that the industry discounts roughly 10% for these puppies only works to our advantage if you can have the stone checked out and if you have the support of a great jeweler. I got a magnificent stone that out sparkles everyone else's I know and I was able to afford my dream size because of the EGL. To me, it was worth it.

The luxury of buying GIA and AGS is that there is more consistency and more perceived value to these labs--less to worry about generally. It's a fact no one can deny. I also feel some of the finer vendors here prefer to avoid the potential headaches of EGL stones (and the potential inconsistency) and I can understand that. They sell top quality goods--easier and more efficient to stay with AGS and GIA. If I were selling diamonds, I might feel the same way.

In the end, I agree that if you dismiss an EGL stone--especially if you see it and love it--just because it is EGL, you might be shortchanging yourself.

Congrats on your awesome diamond & thanks for posting the story.

 

[AdaBeta27]

ebay ID is normangoodman?

 

[EZ-Monet]

You are correct...
normangoodman is their ebay ID.

 

[EZ-Monet]

Credit?
If one was to really give credit where credit was due, Garry Holloway (Holloway Cut Adviser) and David Atlas (AGA DIY Cut Grader) would receive the lion’s share for providing the most astonishingly useful self-service tools one can imagine. No stone crosses my desk without first passing through both of these gentleman’s gifts.

 

[diamondsbylauren]

EGL serves a valuable fuction- after all GIA can not keep up with demand.
There are a few aspects of EGL which will never allow them to run with GIA.
One of these is the fact that EGL offers "Retail Replacement Value" on thier reports- something GIA will NEVER do.
The reason is that these values may be set unreasonably high. Sellers then can claim that they are selling a diamond appraised for $10,000, when the selling price is $4000.

EGL is great for a lot of things- for example, they do all the tests to assure the buyer they are getting a natural diamond- not subjective.
An H/VS2 from EGL on a 1.20 is perfectly acceptable too.
But if I were to see a 3.00 D/VS1 with anything but a GIA, I gotta say....hmmmmmm

 

[Jennifer5973]

My report does not have a "retail replacement value" on it and it's from May 2004.

Why could't EGL evaluate a higher color/clarity stone? Is the implication that if a stone is "that good" it will/should go to GIA? Is this proven?

 

[Brian Knox]

Is the implication that if a stone is "that good" it will/should go to GIA?

Not speaking for David, but everyone I know in the industry would insist on the diamond David mentioned having a GIA report, well that is if they are paying anywhere near what a 3.00 D/VS-1 sells for.



Is this proven?

Yes, sufficiently to me,

The race does not always go the the fastest
Nor does the fight always go the strongest
But thats where the smart money lays

 

[Jennifer5973]

Intellectually, I can accept the above is true.

Emotionally, I guess those of us who dare admit we have EGL stones on this forum must live with the fact they are perceived as sub-standard, one way or the other, no matter how awesome my ring looks or how may people gush over it, which they do every day. I keep thinking "They say EGL is bad, but my ring is so pretty--and I love it. What must be wrong with me?"

In the micrososm of Pricescope, the most intricate details around cut and the "fineness" of such stones (and the skill and effort that go into making them) are appreciated and lauded, but in the real world, virtually NO ONE knows the difference between a very well cut diamond that sparkles like mad and a "Super Ideal" or whatever brand name/term that commands a higher premium. And unless a diamond is heavily included or visible yellow, no one but the wearer can usually appreciate those two elements either.

I know this is blasphemous but I guess I am just exhausted at this point. I searched high and low for an awesome cut and what not, and was very discriminating in my selection, despite my EGL status, and in the end, all people want to know is "how big is it"?

They do say "boy, it sparkles" ...I guess that's the payoff. And when I hold my new stone up against my shallow original ering diamond, even a one-eyed toad could spot the difference. And I live near NYC where people have big, nice diamonds... it's not like they aren't exposed to it all.

Maybe if you can find yourself a well-cut, G, H, or I, VS-SI EGL and save some $$$ it's worth it...because I am really starting to doubt how much people really get out of some of the window dressing. Maybe I knew that subconsciously and drew a mental line in the sand around how much I was willing to do/pay for this notion of "Ideal."

I wanted to believe it all--I really, really did.

 

[Brian Knox]

Hi Jennifer,

...because I am really starting to doubt how much people really get out of some of the window dressing. Maybe I knew that subconsciously and drew a mental line in the sand around how much I was willing to do/pay for this notion of "Ideal."

That is very astute, I hope to think that I would be like that if I was on the other side of the counter shopping for a diamond.


Edited to add:

From a consumers perspective, with all of the hype and minutia, diamonds would be a very frustrating product to research and purchase.

 

[moremoremore]

"Emotionally, I guess those of us who dare admit we have EGL stones on this forum must live with the fact they are perceived as sub-standard, one way or the other, no matter how awesome my ring looks or how may people gush over it, which they do every day."


See, I don't think anyone thinks EGL stones are substandard by any means. Honestly, while I would question (rightly or wrongly, maybe due to a bad rep that is hard to break even if there have been improvements...dunno if this applies to just EGL USA) the color and clarity of an Israel EGL, that all goes away....POOF!....when the stone is appraised and the grading is confirmed!!! I had an Israel EGL H, and it turned out to be an I. But that was a few years ago.

As long as the cert matches up to reality, any possible "stigma" in this price scope world of diamond crazies (like me) goes away. POOF!

Your stone has been confirmed as graded and we've seen pix of your stone. Anyone who would view it as "substandard" would be a BOOB!

 

[diamondlil]

Hi Jennifer,
I can totally related to your comments. I have one of *those* EGL-USA-graded stones too. Generally, no one in the real world knows the difference, but in discussing it with many in the diamond business, I have received comments implying that my E color could really be an F or G and my eye-clean SI2 could be an I1 based solely on the fact that it has an EGL appraisal. Yes, I have had it independently appraised and confirmed my certificate, but there still remains a little twinge of inferiority when I talk about it.

DiamondLil