E-bay nightmare...any advice???

[dublingirl]

Hello all,
Well, here''s the E-bay story you''ve been waiting for. I''ll try to make this as short as possible. My husband and I started looking around for a three-stone anniversary ring in January. New as we were to the whole diamond-buying business, we were surprised to find lots of rings on E-bay. Anyway, hubby jumped the gun a bit and bid on a ring I was watching (purely out of curiosity). We ended up "winners" of the item (#2683501312) and nervously wired off the $$. Ring duly arrived at a friends in Boston (we now live in Dublin, Ireland) and he sent it to Martin Haske in Brookline to have it checked out. The GAL cert said value was $50k which we knew was grossly inflated, but if the basic information had checked out we would have been satisfied. Mr Haske was a great help and went through everything on the phone with my husband. Turns out that the two side-stones (1.24ct and 1.25ct F colour and SI1 clarity on GAL) were in fact .96ct and 1.05ct, HIJ colour and I1. The centre stone checked out, except for clarity (SI2 vs GAL''s SI1). Our appraisal values the ring at $16K, less than we paid, but way off the fabulous $50k!!! Well, this was enough for us and we contacted the seller to tell her that we weren''t happy and would be returning the ring for a refund. And this is where it went pear-shaped. The seller and her ring manufacturers don''t "agree" with the report we got. We tried the E-bay mediation service, but it has stalled. According to the seller, the manufacturers Romancing-The-Stone aka Ringmaster 47th St aka Direct Jewellry Source in NY, now want US to obtain two more independent appraisals in order to proceed. We have told the seller that as far as we are concerned our appraisers qualifications are beyond question. Now we are stuck, we have no idea what to do next. We know we screwed up, we now know all the reservations about GAL and RTS. We know we could have done better using Pricescope and other reputable vendors, but without any ''I told you so''s'', does anyone have some practical advice on how to proceed here? Do we need to take all this to a lawyer? How would we even go about finding one from so far away? Thanks in advance for your wisdom and wit!!
caireann

 

[valeria101]

Is this some Ebay procedure? Who is the authority enforcing this trade-off ?

It does not sound like the end of the world getting two more appraisals... But from WHOM should they be? What credentials should the appraiser have to qualify and his appraisal to be recognized as evidence ? What happens when the other two appraisals come ? How much "off" should they be for your case to hold and obtain the refund ? Who guarantees the recognition of the apprasals and what authority will preassure the seller to give the refund ?

If all these are clear, I would bet two apprasails are cheaper than any other intermediation... It is suposed to sound like a hussle, but maybe it is not such an awful preocess after all.

 

[The Joker]

IMHO you should only be out the S/H charges. I am not sure about the 7 day return part of their policy.
This is what was posted on ebay.

"SATISFACTION GUARANTEED!

Our merchandise is 100% guaranteed or your money back within 7 days of receipt of the product. We aim high to satisfy all our customers and you can rest assured that our jewelry will meet if not exceed your expectations. If for some reason you are not fully satisfied or the diamond does not match the grading report, return the merchandise without question asked and your money will be refunded in full less shipping and handling.

IF THE RING WILL BE APPRAISED BY ANY REPUTABLE GEMOLOGICAL LAB FOR LESS THAN 200% OF WHAT YOU PAID FOR IT - YOU GET A FULL REFUND PLUS 25% in CASH!! "


You may have to jump through their hoops to get your money back. The ring in the picture is a nice looking ring, too bad that's not the ring you received.
I would not have bid on this ring because (1)ring pictured is not the one you receive and (2)payment by wire transfer only.
Good luck, and keep us informed.
Joker....

 

[Jennifer5973]

Did you notice this ring was BACK...with a higher by $500 price tag? (#2688253186 )? And it it the same description?

Unfortunately, it sounds like you may have to get at least one more appraisal, but stick to your guns; you should definitely get your money back.

We all learns some things in life the hard way. Good luck to you.

PS Don't feel bad--I actually was dazzled by this seller's items/prices a while back and thought bidding...but I live very close to NYC and can show up there in 15 min....What tipped me off was that they sold all kinds of junk...and the old sayng if something is too good to be true, it probably is.

 

[phoenixgirl]

You might try emailing or messaging RockDoc with your question.

Pursue every angle you can. I would look into complaining with the BBB and the JVC before hiring a lawyer.

Here are the FTC Guidelines for jewelery sales in the US. Notice

Good luck!

 

[DanielTahar]

GET GIA CERTIFICATES!

No one will normally say "GIA got you a 'G' color on this, but I think it's an 'H' and lower". When getting a GIA, you may be quoted HIGHER, that's all. Don't get uncertified stones at these sizes and prices.

My oppinion.

Oh, and as an eBay seller, I can't understand how people don't follow through on their money back guarentee policy.

 

[Greatcall]

WOW


NICE STORY. THE story seemed like A CLASSIC E BAY NIGHTMARE and I had no doubts about it until the quote "We know we could have done better using Pricescope and other reputable vendors, but NICE PLUG IN FOR THE VENDORS HERE. I AM NOT SAYING THE STORY ISNT TRUE BUT I AM SUSPICIOUS


CHEERS

 

[Daniela]

I don't have any advice about recourse for your purchase, but I just wanted to say I'm really sorry that you were taken advantage of. No "I told you so's" here. But fight to the death to get your money back.

And to GreatCall--Good Lord, get a grip. Why do you look for conspiracy from every angle? This person sounds very genuine and is looking for advice. Quit stirring the pot.

 

[Nicrez]

Hey Nicecall, if you are knocking PS on every post, why do you even bother to stick around and read? Aren't we all vendors just trying to plug ourselves or the vendors that pay us to be be nice? if that's the case, my paycheck hasn't come in yet...still waiting guys!

Dublin Girl, the best thing to do is to TRY and deal with it through Square Trade (the conflict resolution people at E-Bay) and if you feel there has been some serious foul play, try to file a police report (in the city where the offender is) if possible for getting ripped off due to fraud FTC states that if the appraisal is off by so much, as yours has been, there is fraud. I know it applies to vendors, but this person MAY be accountable as well. Sad as it is, try to find the responsible party and you may have to start a legal proceeding if they keep asking you to eat costs. I hate to say that, because that's the biggest problem, but sometimes instead of such problems, they may settle.

FIRST, try to threaten to give them bad press, say you'll write to newspapers in NY, or even try to get your story on the Fox Five Problem solvers news in New York to expose the crooked ways they do business...get VERY angry and basically such a pain they HAVE to help, and if not then there's the last resort of filing a lawsuit...I really don't like that idea, so try Square Trade, try the threats to expose them on TV and news, and tell us what happens...

 

[phoenixgirl]

Not only is the appraisal the issue, but the total disparity between carat weights. Sometimes color or clarity can vary by a grade due to subjectivity, but all you have to do is weigh a stone to find out its exact carat weight. You'll notice that's listed on the FTC website I linked above.

Yes, if you mention the local media (now you know the station and the name of its consumer advocate segment), that might get them rolling.

By the way, they do appear to be relisting the item. Is it in your possession or theirs?

your auction

current auction

 

[alexah]

Hi~ I'm sorry you're having to go through all this.

There seems to be something not quite right about that E-bay seller...?
If you have the time & the inclination, check this out- similar rings, similar write-ups, similar "Sample" certs but several dif sellers- all w great fdbk but the rings are the only expensive items they're selling & the positive fdbk is from the inexpensive items (not including the ringmaster).

First, a ringmaster link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2693539056&category=42952

Now another vendor (?):
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2693048242&category=42952

Another:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2693957829&category=42952

Another:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2693937936&category=15180

Seems odd... or maybe I'm just reading too much into it?

 

[dublingirl]

Hi again,
Thanks for all your messages of support. To have all that righteous indignation on our side makes us feel a little better! Valeria101, thank you for pointing out some pertinent questions. You are probably right about getting at least one other appraisal, with the terms agreed beforehand. We feel like digging our heels in on principle, but it might serve us better to take a deep breath and pay up for another appraisal. As for her sales policy, we have pointed it out to her several times to no avail, yet. Thank you phoenixgirl for the FTC guidelines, she also got those in an e-mail from me, with the part about carat weight underlined! Great tip for the Fox Five Problem solvers Nicrez, we've found the website and bookmarked it, thanks! The media route sounds interesting and worth a try before the legal one. We do still have the ring, and I can't believe she has the nerve to try to sell another one.

I'll let you know what happens next.
caireann

 

[valeria101]

Hope things work out for you, too bad your Ebay shopping went this way

The idea about getting GIA cert is realy a greta one: no one is likely to contest that easily, and I strongly doubt that the respective seller would pursue the issue to even greater length. Best of luck !

 

[Colored Gemstone Nut]

----------------
On 2/29/2004 10:48:16 AM Greatcall wrote:





WOW


NICE STORY. THE story seemed like A CLASSIC E BAY NIGHTMARE and I had no doubts about it until the quote 'We know we could have done better using Pricescope and other reputable vendors, but NICE PLUG IN FOR THE VENDORS HERE. I AM NOT SAYING THE STORY ISNT TRUE BUT I AM SUSPICIOUS


CHEERS


----------------

Greatcall,

I have been following your feedback for some time and must say you sparingly add any constructive advice or opinions in helping certain consumers here in certain situations. Rather you continuously add your opinions and question consumers responses in some weird theory about plugging the vendors here on Pricescope. I remember a while back when you voiced some of your opinions on certain grading labs and how the folks here are "somewhat tight". If you are in the trade I would advise it might be more constructive to add positive feedback, not just your theories on the Pricescope members having something to do with "plugging vendors". If you doubt the forum community why do you hang out and continuously post feedback questioning members?

Let's keep the forum positive and constructive rather than being negative in trying to outline certain consumers aren't being genuine in their posts...

my 2 cents..

 

[pqcollectibles]

I am sorry for your eBay experience, DG.

As others have pointed out, you really need to get a bona fide appraisal from an Independent Appraiser. There's a link at the top of the page to a list of apprasiers. An Independent Appraisal will be a very good first step.

You might also want to read through all of eBay's "Right to Use" information and "Square Trade" policies. Be completely familiar with those. Any questions you may have, you might want to start addressing those now as well. Know eveything possible that you might expect in the process so as not to be caught unawares.

I really do hope this all works out for you, as quickly and as painlessly as possible.

 

[mhtv]

do not spend another dime on an appraisal or report. if the seller is not willing to honor the very clear and unequivocal return policy, there is no reason to think they will refund based on additional appraisals or reports.

if the item is significantly misrepresented, file criminal charges at your local jurisdiction, and file a fraud complaint with the post office. look on the ebay forums to links to online sources for filing fraud charges. there is lots of info on ebay discussion boards for addressing this type of fraud.

if you go at this full steam, and inform the seller of all your charges and actions, and the seller receives a notice of the criminal charges from you local prosecutor, and from any of the other possible jurisdictions, including federal charges (mail fraud, wire fraud, etc), there is a good chance that you will get the refund without having to spend on appraisals and reports, and without having to pay an attorney.

 

[Griffin]

Just one word - Attorney. You shouldn't even have to pay for one.

I'm very serious about this one. If that much money is on the line, and the goods were that clearly misrepresented, get representation FAST. You will need it. A civil attorney can also give you advice about filing criminal charges and precisely how to go about it - as it will be vital to your later civil case exactly how this is handled.

Document the date, time, and subject of EVERY phone conversation, letter, or other contact you have had up to this point and turn it over to a professional!!!!

BTW - These people couldn't care less about threats of bad press from one disgruntled customer or calls to BBB. Don't make a fool of yourself. If they have a history of this - especially if they are doing things like posting the identical description for another ring, you have a good argument for a class-action suit as well.
That'll wake 'em up.

 

[finchuck]

So you're not in the United States right now? That'll make things a bit difficult.

My course of action would be to file a police report, have a lawyer draft a letter to them detailing what has gone wrong and that if things aren't rectified then you'll pursue further legal action, and perhaps have someone talk to them face to face if possible. If it does go any further, this looks like a cut-and-dry case, so any competent lawyer should be able to get your money back without much trouble.

They're in NYC? I live just outside NYC and head in there every couple of weeks, do they have a store? I'd like to check it out, just out of curiosity.

 

[dublingirl]

Thanks everyone,
I have a couple of answers for you, and a few questions. pq, we did get an independent appraisal from the list on this site (Martin Haske) and were very impressed with his professionalism. I think mhtv might be right. If she won't honor her sales terms after this independent report, why would she change her mind after a second? If we were to go for a GIA cert, how would we get it? From their website it seems we can't just send the ring to them for a cert? Do you mean an appraisal from a GIA certified gemologist? I can't imagine that the one we already got isn't enough. I can understand the clarity and colour variations as being more open to individual interpretation, but the carat sizes? No way, they are what they are. And as the stones are mounted, we don't want to do anything that would involve removing them from the mounting in case the seller then tries to claim the ring is damaged. For finchuck, here is the manufacturers site: http://www.romancingthestone.com/default.htm
No mention of BBB or JVC anywhere! They are at 37 W 47th st.
We want to avoid attorneys as long as we can, that will just cost us more money, but any ideas on how we would go about finding one?
Have a good day everyone,
caireann

 

[pqcollectibles]

I'm sorry, DG. As I understood it, you just had a quick check done on the ring. I didn't realize you received a full report. Martin Haske most definitely has the credentials and experience for this type of appraisal.

You are correct about getting a Cert Lab to grade the diamonds. In order for GIA, or any grading lab, to evaluate the diamonds, they would have to be removed from the setting. The only way to accurately obtain carat weight is to physically weigh a loose diamond. Once stones are set, appraisers estimate carat weight based on measurments. The estimated carat weight of 1.25 carat stones may vary 5 points or so. It would be highly unlikely for a qualified appraiser such as Mr. Haske to miss by 20-30 points per stone.

Sadly, I think you may be right. If the company won't even honor their published return policy, you are likely in for a fight to get your money back.

 

[EdSkinner]

If you bought it on a credit card. You can call the company and tell them your problem. They have the power to back the money out of the sellers account and return it to you and also mediate the dispute.

 

[Nicrez]

Dublingirl, I too will go check it out, since I work so close to the area...Honestly, I can help you out if you need someone here in the Staes to talk to them in person, or even help with the news report on the local news if you need help. I get SO MAD when people like that try scamming poor innocent consumers!!!

Honestly, let me know!

 

[chris-uk04]

Wow I feel bad for you. I noticed they only accept wire transfers which is sketchy to begin with. I want to email them and ask them lots of details about the same ring that they have for sale.


Here are the two links:

New item?!?!?
Old Item

 

[Griffin]

An attorney shouldn't cost much of anything in this case.

They will take a percentage of damages awarded - and damages include among other things the money you lost, the time and hassle involved in recovery, and the cost of any legal representation. Treble and/or Punitive damages as well, most likely.


You have given them ample opportunity to show bad faith, and it is clear thier This attitude is not going to simply change. Time to crucify them.

 

[diamond4all]

Ladies and Gentlemen
Every story has two sides and it is only fair that you will be kind enough to hear our side before trying - as at least one of you suggested – crucifying us (It won’t be appropriate / politically correct since we are Jews...)

Appraising diamonds is not an exact science so opinion varies from individuals. One may give you a G while another, F. But I doubt any reputable appraiser will ever estimate 3 color grades on a single stone (like this “EXPERT” did in his “appraisal” by judging the color to be – G-H-I…Did you ever see an appraiser give a stone the color G-H-I? there are thousands of dollars difference between them..) that is like guessing if the fruit is an apple, pear, or orange. And when he can’t he calls it “Apple- pear- orange” Our rings are appraised by one of the top five gemological labs in the industry. Their clientele include the Home Shopping Network and Zales. The amount of experience and appraisals that they perform in one day is what a local appraiser does in a year, which is like comparing your opinion of a specialist to a general practitioner. When making a purchase, we only recommend that you use an Independent gemological lab and not one that will benefit from the opinion. Would you think getting the appraisal from the purchaser is a fair and acceptable, if not why would you trust the opinion of one that sells jewelry as well. If you can obtain 4 different opinions from 5 different appraisers, who can you say is correct and most accurate?? That’s why when there is a dispute between 2 appraisers by a far margin; we recommend the opinion of another appraiser. We even offered to pay the fees if the appraisals match the one this customer received versus the one from GAL.
Now, if you guys would like to be our judge, jury and executioner that is fine with us as long as it’s fair and consider the following:
1. We sold hundreds of rings with less than 0.5% dispute rate.
2. The local appraiser didn't took the stones out but worked on a formula which is known to be 25% off from the actual weight - to get an accurate weigh the stone must be removed and placed on a scale. But the issue here is not the weight – this is very easy to determine who is right and who is wrong: Just placed them on the scale…. The issue here is more important: COLOR & CLARITY!! And an “Expert” who appraises in a year what the 3rd party independent gemological lab appraises in one day grades a diamond as G-H-I he is no expert! and we must seek the opinion of two more appraisers (or one national lab).
3. Think about it: This buyer has a 0 eBay feedback while our independent eBay seller assistant has a feedback of 2031!!!!! And sold many of our rings on and off eBay with no problems at all, with this many sales why hasn’t there been any complains in the past?
Why don’t you consider the fact that this may be a scam - to force us in to a refund PLUS 25% while sending a ring with stones that were replaced?
If the appraisal the purchaser claims is that far apart from the GAL appraisal, how do we know the stones on the current ring is ours. Where is our protection in getting back what we sold and guaranteed that it’s the same diamonds that we shipped out?
Now, to finalize our defense:
GAL (www.GemLab.Com) is one of the top Independent 3rd party 5 gemological labs in the country. You can’t even compare their opinion and judgment to this local appraiser because not only they grade in a day more diamonds that he grades in a year (!!) – Each appraisal has to be checked and double checked by two GIA certified appraisers.
Now, in a normal and fair world – The only options that can lead to this dispute are:
1. The right report was sent with the wrong ring.
2. We forged the report or the ring.
The only legitimate way to check it:
A. Send the ring accompanied by the report DIRECTLY to GAL for them to verify that the said report was indeed issued by them for this particular ring!
B. Use two other INDEPENDENT 3rd party gemological labs (THAT DO NOT SELL JEWELRY) and fairly compare their finding to the customer “Expert” appraiser.

THIS POOR CUSTOMER THAT ALL OF YOU TAKING HIS SIDE – REFUSES TO DO SO!
DID YOU ASK YOURSELVE WHY BEFORE ISSUING YOUR OPINION ABOUT US???
WE AND OUR SELLR HAS OVER 2000 100% POSITIVE FEEDBACK!!!
WHAT DOES THIS “POOR” CUSTOMER HAS? –“0” (!!!) FEEDBACKS!!!


We have been in business for over 40 years. We have seen it all – from a jeweler who changed stones when a customer came in for a repair or an appraisal (did any one of you saw last year the TV show with Dian S. about 4 out of 10 “reputable – 30 years in business” local trusted jewelers who changed stone when they send an old lady to fix a ring?) To customers who had changed it by themselves while conspiring with a relative who was a jeweler / appraiser.

REMEMBER!
1. We offered to pay for the other two appraisals!!!
2. We gave her our attorney info:
Amir J. Goldstein, Esq.
Hauser & Associates, P.C.
591 Broadway, Suite 6B
New York, N.Y. 10012
(212) 966- 5253 phone
(212) 941- 8566 fax
[email protected]


We are a legitimate business with thousands of satisfied customers. Everyone is welcome to visit us!
We are not a retail outlet. We are manufacturers and offices - a lean mean
saving machine that cuts the middleman. (you are welcome to visit us by
appointment at 37 west 47th street 212.840.7577 - we
are open 10am - 5pm week days only. Friday 10:00am to 1:00pm)
We sell to stores and "seller assistance" sellers on eBay. Many sellers assistants who are selling our products some with over 2000 100% positive feedback.
As for the payment: We accept WIRE-TRANSFER ONLY due to the fact that we got
hurt a few time by cases such as the ones mentioned in:
http://www.carbuyingtips.com/fraud.htm This is company policy.
The other option and which many people choose - Send a family member or a
friend who lives in or around NYC to our office (or better off - come down
yourself) to inspect the ring and we will escort him / her to GAL office
(All top 5 gem labs in the world are on or around our block..) for
certification under his / her watch.

As for certification: It will be done by one of the top 5 independent 3rd
party Gemological Labs in the country: G.A.L (www.GemLab.Com) They are the certifying agent for a multi billion dollar jewelry retailers such as Zales and the HSN.

Thank you.

David

 

[diamond4all]

One more:

Many of you guys have been wandering about the BIG DISCOVERY - Hey! they are selling the same ring again!

Sure we do!!

Most our sellers auctions says in big bold letters:



"We make and sell two type of rings: The pre-manufactured rings which are presented to the bidders with the exact specifications and measurements and will be accompanied by the actual Gemological Lab certificate of appraisal. (WHAT THIS AUCTION IS FOR) The advantage of such rings is the ability to be shipped next day (after payment confirmation).

The second type of rings are the type very few sellers on eBay can offer (Must be manufacturers with large stock of stones) and which represent a huge advantage to you as a buyer, because let's say - the stone is beautiful, the price may be also right but the setting is totally off. Or the whole ring is above or below your budget. The solution is simple: We present a ring with a stone together with a sample certificate but you have the option to request other mounting / setting / stone to be used. The auction will declare the stone specification based on the stone of which we have in stock and was dedicated for this ring - it will be set in a mounting chosen after the auction. You, the customer have the advantage of getting this new and custom made ring usually within 10 business days. Unlike most rings sold on eBay (you can tell who is who by monitoring seller items - if the seller has sold the same ring again and again or has ONLY one of each..) this is not a closeout or return - it is made for you! If you are interested in making changes to this ring please email me."



Unlike all the junk out there - we are manufacturing our rings to order!!

 

[diamond4all]

One more:

Many of you guys have been wondering about the BIG DISCOVERY - Hey! they are selling the same ring again!

Sure we do!!

Most our sellers auctions says in big bold letters:



"We make and sell two type of rings: The pre-manufactured rings which are presented to the bidders with the exact specifications and measurements and will be accompanied by the actual Gemological Lab certificate of appraisal. (WHAT THIS AUCTION IS FOR) The advantage of such rings is the ability to be shipped next day (after payment confirmation).

The second type of rings are the type very few sellers on eBay can offer (Must be manufacturers with large stock of stones) and which represent a huge advantage to you as a buyer, because let's say - the stone is beautiful, the price may be also right but the setting is totally off. Or the whole ring is above or below your budget. The solution is simple: We present a ring with a stone together with a sample certificate but you have the option to request other mounting / setting / stone to be used. The auction will declare the stone specification based on the stone of which we have in stock and was dedicated for this ring - it will be set in a mounting chosen after the auction. You, the customer have the advantage of getting this new and custom made ring usually within 10 business days. Unlike most rings sold on eBay (you can tell who is who by monitoring seller items - if the seller has sold the same ring again and again or has ONLY one of each..) this is not a closeout or return - it is made for you! If you are interested in making changes to this ring please email me."



Unlike all the junk out there - we are manufacturing our rings to order!!

 

[anothernewbie]

Is there an echo in here????

 

[Mara]

Just refund her money already! Honor your policies. Who cares why you have nine hundred million positives and this is a new eBayer with no feedback. YOU sold to her. Some jewelers and eBay sellers will not allow people with no feedback or transactions to buy such an expensive item for this particular reason. You took her money, and gave her a ring that did not measure up in their eyes. That is the bottom line. Unhappiness is unhappiness regardless of what you think she should be happy with, and she and her husband spent alot of money in trusting you and your company.




It drives me nuts when sellers don't honor their policies and/or crucify the customer as doing something wrong for asking for a refund. You have a refund policy don't you? Honor it.




Both of you need to cut your losses and move on. Buyer, send your ring back. Seller, refund the money. End of story. Is a lawsuit really necessary? Stories like these are why eBay jewelers get SUCH a bad rap. Because they don't live up to what their auctions say. At least have the honor to respect your customers.




Such drama!

 

[Uncle Marty]

I have very little time to help you but here goes

FORGET THE FTC JEWELRY GUIDELINES. THE FTC DOES NOT HAVE ANY PENALTY FOR NOT FOLLOWING THE GUIDELINES.

The Guidelines were sold to reail B & M jewelers to keep them honest. No one checked out the FTC and the JVC, except me, of course.

Call Marty Haske. Pay him for his time. Marty is a very fair person. Ask him to contact Consumers Fraud division in the city in which the ring was shipped. Fraud is always Fraud everywhere.

I have lost sales to that website. My customers were too lazy to have the Diamond ring checked out.

And stay away from E-bay. E-bay will do lttle to help you. Their job is to sell product not protect YOU.

Uncle Marty of course