does anybody have a live (H&A) picture from a aca stone ?

[Dancing Fire]

after being here for a yr i haven''t seen one posted.i don''t know if you guys notice but lately some vendors are stretching what they call H&A stones.

maybe its bad pictures? i know one thing if i''m gonna pay the premium it better be all there.

 

[Mara]

one comment on ACA stones....

WF's ES area houses some stones that were meant to be ACA's and cut to that end, but for whatever reason, they did not make Brian's stringent 'cut' for the pick.

I know that WF holds their ACA brand to very high standards, and would venture to say that some of their ACA 'rejects', aka ES stones (like my new one!) would be branded and sold as H&A's by many other vendors out there.

I commend WF on keeping their brand held to higher standards, even if those standards are only ones Brian's sharp eye can see

, because I'm sure they could make alot more money by branding some of these ES stones with the ACA name and charging that markup, however they do not, and that is why to me the ES stones represent an excellent mix of great cut for best value -- I don't need the most precise cut ever, but I do want to see arrows and good numbers and good IS return and a good price. I love that WF has both ES stones and ACA to choose from...it is like best of both worlds.

My two cents...by the way I am trying to get some good shots of my arrows even though my stone is not an ACA...

 

[Lord Summerisle]

umm... i did try and take some shot when my stone arrived but they didnt come out too well... But they do look perfect to my eyes...

 

[niceice]

Date: 3/19/2005 12:49

6 AM
Author:Dancing Fire
after being here for a yr i haven''t seen one posted.i don''t know if you guys notice but lately some vendors are stretching what they call H&A stones.

maybe its bad pictures? i know one thing if i''m gonna pay the premium it better be all there.

No doubt that Brian or another staff member at WF would provide you with H&A images for any diamond that you are considering from their inventory as would just about any other vendor who houses physical inventory and has the capacity to do so... The pictures are not difficult to take, we provide them for every diamond in our inventory that exhibits a pattern of hearts and arrows as do several of the other vendors. We thought that WF did provide these pictures for the diamonds listed in their inventory, so are you just saying that you don''t see the pictures here on PS or that you don''t see them on the diamond details pages published on the WF web site?

Regarding the rest of our response that appears below which is in response to your mention of some vendors "stretching what they call H&A stones" it should be noted that we are not in any way implying that the following is the practice of WF or any of the other specific vendors who are known for being quite precise in their selection practices, but careful study of the patterns of many diamonds being represented by various vendors as being "H&A" will indicate that some vendors are less precise than others in their use of this term and that some of the diamonds being represented as "Hearts & Arrows" would not warrant even a grade of "Good" in terms of the consistency of the pattern if the diamonds were sent to CGL Japan for grading... Here is our opinion regarding the current use of the terms "H&A" and "Hearts & Arrows" as we see it used by many vendors to describe the diamonds that they sell - insult is added when one realizes that many of the vendors using the term never actually see the diamonds being described which makes the use of the term even more of an abuse of the trust placed in them by the public...

Unlike most of the vendors, we no longer market our ideal cut diamonds as being "Hearts & Arrows" even when they exhibit a very nice pattern because we''ve noted that the cutters have changed the cutting style just a bit to speed up production time and it has changed the consistency of the patterns so that we don''t feel they "make the grade" in comparison to what we were seeing a few years ago... Just because an ideal cut diamond may exhibit a pattern of hearts and a pattern of arrows, does not necessarily make it a Hearts & Arrows diamond regardless of what it is being called and what might be inscribed on the girdle edge of the diamond (if H&A is inscribed on the girdle edge of a diamond prior to it being submitted to a lab for grading the lab will mention it on the lab report because the inscription is a characteristic of the diamond, but not necessarily because it exhibits crisp and complete hearts and arrows)...

This is not to say that other vendors do not have the right to market their diamonds as being "Hearts & Arrows" because there is not a designated grading system for what consistitutes a "Hearts & Arrows" diamond that is accepted by the industry as a whole at this time... We hope that an international standard will be adopted iat some point in the future, and we think that when that happens a lot of companies will be standing around with egg on their faces after their clients send their "Hearts & Arrows" diamonds in for grading and discover that they don''t quite meet the grade or don''t score as high as they had hoped that they would, but in the mean time various companies are free to represent anything that exhibits any sort of a pattern as Hearts & Arrows.

A quick glance of our inventory will indicate that we don''t use the term H&A to describe the cut quality of our diamonds... We merely indicate that they are ideal cut and which laboratory provided the diamond grading report... Further down the diamond details page provided for each diamond, we provide pictures of the patterns of hearts and arrows if they are present but do not indicate that the diamond is "Hearts & Arrows" because what we see being marketed as H&A today is not (consistently) up to par with what we purchased as H&A from the specific producers of H&A in the mid to late 1990''s. Thus we have chosen to merely indicate the presence of a pattern by providing photographs of the patterns without a designated grade because we have the right to decide how we will conduct ourselves as a company and prefer not to market our diamonds on the remnants of a cutting style which is all but extinct. And some of you are saying "Extinct? How can it be extinct? I''m seeing Hearts & Arrows in your diamonds and in the diamonds of other vendors..." and once again, we''re saying "just because a diamond exhibits a pattern of hearts and arrows does not necessarily make it Hearts & Arrows"... The effect is a reflection of the basic facet structure of a round brilliant cut diamond... The kite shaped bezel facets on the top of the diamond produce the hearts when the diamond is viewed from the bottom using a Gems Fantasy Scope and the arrows are a reflection of white light (caused by the white washers in the scope) bouncing off of the pavilion main facets on the bottom of the stone...

By the way, has anybody besides us noticed that the scopes being sold today to exhibit the pattern are far less precise than the scopes we bought a few years ago? We''re so glad that we purchased a couple hundred of the original Gems Fantasy Scopes so that we''re not forced to play with the mini toys that are being used today by so many dealers in the selection and sales process... The little scopes lack the precision and make everything look so much better. We actually don''t use either version of the scopes during our in-store sales presentation though, we use the lab quality scope that we imported from CGL Japan that was designed to be used for evaluating and grading the consistency of the Hearts & Arrows patterns for the diamonds that were in production a few years ago... It is a completely different view and perhaps the primary reason that we find ourselves unable to call what we see today "Hearts & Arrows".

Lastly, we feel it important to note that the presence of a pattern of Hearts and Arrows does not automatically result in a higher degree of light return / visual performance... H&A gained poplularity in the mid 1990''s here in the U.S. because they were cut to the tighter center range of the ideal cut classification and thus were more likely to exhibit better light return than the broad spectrum ideal cut diamonds that were popular in the U.S. market at the time... When the producers of the broad spectrum ideals realized that they were losing market share to the more precise producers of the H&A diamonds, they adapted by tightening their production and the result was an excellent rival that was produced at a fraction of the production cost while still exhibiting some sort of pattern because it is an effect of the basic facet structure within a designated range of proportions for the round brilliant cut diamond... With the understanding that many of the diamonds that we sell exhibit patterns which are very nice, we urge people to look beyond the obvious presence of hearts and arrows to the light return of the diamond itself. Ask the vendor you are purchasing the diamond from to provide you with pictures of the Hearts & Arrows patterns if they are indicated to be present or if you are simply curious, but also obtain detailed proportions analysis and basic information like clarity photographs and stuff like that.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 3/19/2005 12:49

6 AM
Author:Dancing Fire
after being here for a yr i haven't seen one posted.i don't know if you guys notice but lately some vendors are stretching what they call H&A stones.

maybe its bad pictures? i know one thing if i'm gonna pay the premium it better be all there.

DF, a quick search turned up this thread I know we have sent out a fair number of images, but buyers don’t always post them.

It's well known that we guarantee H&A patterning we call "true" for our ACA customers (see \"standards\" here). Every diamond cut to be an ACA goes through Brian’s checklist. If it does not meet the standards it will not be an ACA. It may be moved to Expert Selection or released to a supplier. Of course there are sellers willing to call a diamond H&A where we wouldn’t, so what we would put into ES could be on the market as “H&A” elsewhere…

For a shopper concerned with verifying our ACA guarantee we provide actual images on request - typically before we ship (just as we would a custom piece).

The reason we are not posting H&A photos for each ACA is that our overall stock (not just ACA) rotates quickly, and the manpower is devoted to acquiring and posting lab reports, Sarins, IdealScopes and magnified photos for all diamonds moving through our inventory. Those items are more in demand by the vast majority of consumers. H&A is a rarified market. Diamond sellers with large inventories will take more time to provide every last item. For now we think having grading reports, Sarins, IS and magnified images is pretty nifty.

As consumers are offered more and more information we realize demand - and expectations - are rising. Plans are in the works to display more patterning images, and our true patterning guarantee will still be in place.

I recalled your previous query, here, and I am wondering, is some influence causing you to question ACA patterning in particular? If so, contact me by PM or here – I’ll be happy to discuss it with you.

Or, is there a particular diamond you’re considering? If so I'd be happy to work with you on it.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 3/19/2005 1:25:33 PM
Author: niceice
The pictures are not difficult to take...

With respect for your process, we believe this depends on the quality level. Brian feels very strongly about the quality of photos on our website. Just getting a diamond level in the crown up position, and getting the lens level with the plane of the stone in either view is (in the words of Wink) a “Herculean” task. Now multiply that by the number of diamonds being shot.

With a standardized IdealScope system (rapid tray is a great step forward), mag photo system, H&A viewer photo setup - many H&A viewers are toys, ours is not - stone leveling system and standardized lighting and controlled environment, the length of time it takes to process a universal set of photos for inventory depends on the commitment to consistency & quality, multiplied by the number of diamonds in stock... Of course, with a high turnover the implications include commitment to an ongoing process. So it can indeed be difficult, as is anything done to a high level.

Neil and I (and a few others) have chewed on this via phone and in a few threads. I believe consistent, quality imagery is the hardest thing about equitable representation of an Internet diamond. We are committed to high standards for imagery, even if it takes time. Going after hundreds of level stone, level lens, controlled lighting photos to serve the niche market of exclusively-H&A-shoppers does not meet the needs of most consumers, because demand for lab reports, Sarins, IS images and magnified photos for stones moving through inventory is extremely high.

No problem. We will still make the effort to provide H&A imagery on request, and we guarantee the standards in any event.

Meanwhile, there are constant IS photos, mag photos and lab reports to be posted for rotating stock to serve a larger market, and numerous photos of waxes and finished products galleries being done for current customers.

Right now we serve the needs of the many and provide requested images for the needs of the few. Given time and technology we hope to serve the immediate needs of the all.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 3/19/2005 4:58:59 PM
Author: JohnQuixote

Date: 3/19/2005 1:25:33 PM

Author: niceice

The pictures are not difficult to take...

With respect for your process, we believe this depends on the quality level. Brian feels very strongly about the quality of photos on our website. Just getting a diamond level in the crown up position, and getting the lens level with the plane of the stone in either view is (in the words of Wink) a “Herculean” task. Now multiply that by the number of diamonds being shot.


With a standardized IdealScope system (rapid tray is a great step forward), mag photo system, H&A viewer photo setup - many H&A viewers are toys, ours is not - stone leveling system and standardized lighting and controlled environment, the length of time it takes to process a universal set of photos for inventory depends on the commitment to consistency & quality, multiplied by the number of diamonds in stock... Of course, with a high turnover the implications include commitment to an ongoing process. So it can indeed be difficult, as is anything done to a high level.


Neil and I (and a few others) have chewed on this via phone and in a few threads. I believe consistent, quality imagery is the hardest thing about equitable representation of an Internet diamond. We are committed to high standards for imagery, even if it takes time. Currently, going after hundreds of level stone, level lens, controlled lighting photos to serve the niche market of exclusively-H&A-shoppers is not efficient use of our time and manpower.


No problem. We will still take the effort to provide H&A imagery on request and we guarantee the standards in any event.


Meanwhile, there are constant IS photos, mag photos and lab reports to be posted for rotating stock to serve a larger market, and numerous photos of waxes and finished products galleries being done for current customers.


Right now we serve the needs of the many and provide requested images for the needs of the few. Given time and technology we hope to serve the immediate needs of the all.

That is disappointing.

 

[Mara]

I will agree with John on Brian's requirements for pictures to be entirely spot on perfect and the time it can take to achieve that...I recall waiting a whole extra day for images on my previous 1.29c purchase and w-ring creation as the pictures had to be done *just so*...esp when they know a Pscoper will be posting them all over kingdom come with pride...

I will say that while WF and/or other vendors may not have every image of every stone possible available on the site, they do have most of the basics in order to determine the first step, aka is this stone worth checking into, and I have never had a request turned down for a more detailed image (aka my 1.29c vs the new 1.60c stone side by side) to help make the decision.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 3/19/2005 5

6

9 PM
Author: strmrdr

That is disappointing.

Strm, you and I have been over the mountain and through the woods on this. I'm going to maintain that you are not anything like a "normal" consumer. Neither are the other H&A patterning 'sophisticats' who have evolved through a long process of becoming regular here.

While I respect your position, the mass-traffic on PS - newbies especially - demand the other data first and foremost and don't seem to mind our guarantee or images-on-request. Ironically the ones who take issue with it are long-of-tooth regulars like you and some others (check their post counts) who are not necessarily even in the market...(?)

Now I'll be the first to say you have made a good point to me; We are very high on 'standards' and we should demonstrate examples of that. To thousands of past customers we have demonstrated it, and we are moving towards publishing more ACA patterning imagery for your use and perusal as we grow along with the Internet market. Like I said, in time we wish to serve the ALL.

I know we are on your short list of recommended vendors and appreciate your input...For now, if you speak with any potential customer who wants a specific image I will get it for them.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 3/19/2005 5:10:13 PM
Author: Mara
I will agree with John on Brian's requirements for pictures to be entirely spot on perfect and the time it can take to achieve that...I recall waiting a whole extra day for images on my previous 1.29c purchase and w-ring creation as the pictures had to be done *just so*...esp when they know a Pscoper will be posting them all over kingdom come with pride...

I will say that while WF and/or other vendors may not have every image of every stone possible available on the site, they do have most of the basics in order to determine the first step, aka is this stone worth checking into, and I have never had a request turned down for a more detailed image (aka my 1.29c vs the new 1.60c stone side by side) to help make the decision.

Thanks Mara...and we will continue to provide service where we can. As I have said - the broad intent is to serve the needs of the many... But for any of 'the few' with a request, ring us up and let us see what we can do. We always want the chance if the request is reasonable.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Standards.

NiceIce is not the first vendor we're aware of frustrated with common "H&A" diamonds. It’s regrettable that the market has been diluted, but fortunately there are still some cutting houses committed to fine-make.

For the record, ACA are all cut in the same facility. They must pass Brian’s checklist for true patterning in order to be branded “A Cut Above.” As Mara has mentioned in many threads, some diamonds intended to be “A Cut Above” Hearts & Arrows do not meet the criteria on our checklist and so will not be branded ACA (she found a monster firecracker in our ES).

When Brian began producing ACA, first with Alpha Creations and then with Whiteflash, he cut exclusively in Houston. Back then he bought rough on the open market or re-cut stones to meet his tolerances. This continued until demand grew and he had to find more supply. At one point he was buying rough, re-cutting diamonds and dealing with 3 different factories to maintain inventory. However, 2 of the 3 could not produce on a consistent enough basis to meet ACA standards.

Then several years ago DeBeers forced the issue with their “Supplier of Choice” change, so Brian made an aggressive deal and moved all production to our Antwerp based sightholder. Their factory changed its entire fine-make production to accommodate WhiteFlash. So now they alone produce all ACA - none are cut elsewhere. Brian travels to Antwerp around 10 times a year to oversee and evolve production as necessary…When we began producing New Line (cut for Classic ACA visual balance combined with a limited leakage IdealScope footprint) Brian worked with factory managers designing an entirely new set of paradigms. Now both Classic and New Line ACA are produced there according to his specifications for major and minor facet configuration. Josh Rioux, a frequent customer and cut-enthusiast extraordinaire did a nice workup on the differences for the glossary. Our situation is terrific because continued study and refinement is able to take place constantly now. This is only possible in a few places of which we are aware.

Expert Selection diamonds come from the same Antwerp sightholder. Some rounds are ACA candidates that didn’t make the grade. Just like other committed vendors we will not brand a near-H&A stone as a H&A if it does not meet the standards…Of course, we do not absorb every non-ACA diamond produced so there are a fair number of diamonds sold to other suppliers, winding up on the market that are Brian’s brainchildren.

Garry is now seeing fine-make H&A in India influenced by Brian’s presentation at the International Diamond Cut Conference in Moscow last April. Several of the Indian production people attended and followed up with him after theMoscow convention. He has had numerous communications with those cutting houses, and his mark is being felt in places aside from Antwerp. It’s exciting times… It’s not all just from ‘India’ with love either…

More to come on that soon!

While we are touting the almost H&A that make Expert Selection, I think it’s important to distinguish that not all Expert Selection stones are ACA that didn’t make the grade. Some were never intended for such fine-make. Not all are AGS0, not all get the top HCA scores and not all have even close to true patterning. But all of them are hand-selected by Brian to appear in the ES inventory. The whole idea behind Expert Selection is “best value for the money.”

Funny, isn’t it? With all the numbers and technology, many of these are selected VISUALLY by Brian as the priority – and then we run all of the numbers afterwards (yeah baby – OLD school!)

 

[Mara]

finally got a slightly decent image of my arrows....again this is not an ACA or technically a H&A stone but this image looks fabulous to ME! oh and you can see my dark off-table inclusion here as well. not visible with naked regular eye.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Robin & Todd,

Can you post or send me any info you have on CGL/Zenhokyo grading standards? Specifically - the relative standards which correlate to the GIA lexicon of Ex, VG, G, etc.

It''s funny, I''ve had PMs from PS members who have been told ''the original Japanese standards were high.'' However, none can identify specifics of the systems.

I have the Hentai document, but as you may know it does not identify anything of which we are not currently aware, nor does it address issues of facet yaw (very new and very pertinent to patterning). This is a complex area Brian has brought to light. It is of interest to purists of patterning and facet alignment - Bruce Harding has made some incredible drawings through discussions with Brian. You may be interested?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 3/19/2005 6

7:37 PM
Author: JohnQuixote

Funny, isn’t it? With all the numbers and technology, many of these are selected VISUALLY by Brian as the priority – and then we run all of the numbers afterwards (yeah baby – OLD school!)

There is a place for old school and even the new school is more old school than some will admit to themselves.
This is why I maintain that a trusted knowlegable vendor is vital when buying a diamond.
That is why I hold my recommended vendors to the highest standards.
Part of doing that is buggin them about being open and putting as much information as possible out front and in the open.
You know for a fact that I take that very seriously and if need be put it above other considerations.

 

[niceice]

style="WIDTH: 97.21%; HEIGHT: 98px">Date: 3/19/2005 4:58:59 PM
Author: JohnQuixote

With respect for your process, we believe this depends on the quality level. Brian feels very strongly about the quality of photos on our website. Just getting a diamond level in the crown up position, and getting the lens level with the plane of the stone in either view is (in the words of Wink) a “Herculean” task. Now multiply that by the number of diamonds being shot.

Oh yea, we know what you''re saying... We use a static system that keeps things level, but it still takes some tweaking to get the shot right... The diamonds always look better through the GFS than they do in the pictures.

We want to reiterate that we are not challenging the quality of the product sold by WF and the other more precise vendors, nor the manner in which WF is representing their product, that was never the topic as we understand it and believe that we made our positon regarding that quiet clear... the point of our comment revolved around Dancing Fire''s comment about "some vendors are stretching what they call H&A" and we simply explained our position on it because we get asked about it frequently.
There are a few houses that are dedicated to fine makes and a scan of our inventory will indicate that quite a few of our diamonds exhibit patterns that are quite nice, but we still have no intention of selling them as H&A despite the fact that we often buy them as such.

It''s not so much a written guideline as to what would and wouldn''t be graded H&A:EX and H&A:VG and so on... It is experience on knowing what would and wouldn''t be graded as such that comes from sifting through thousands of CGL graded diamonds... Brian actually published a really good article on this awhile back as we recall. Check with Brian on this, we used to go round and round about it and he''ll no doubt recall some of our previous conversations on the matter.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 3/19/2005 4:34:42 PM
Author: JohnQuixote

Date: 3/19/2005 12:49

6 AM
Author:Dancing Fire
after being here for a yr i haven''t seen one posted.i don''t know if you guys notice but lately some vendors are stretching what they call H&A stones.

maybe its bad pictures? i know one thing if i''m gonna pay the premium it better be all there.

DF, a quick search turned up this thread I know we have sent out a fair number of images, but buyers don’t always post them.

It''s well known that we guarantee H&A patterning we call ''true'' for our ACA customers (see ''standards'' here). Every diamond cut to be an ACA goes through Brian’s checklist. If it does not meet the standards it will not be an ACA. It may be moved to Expert Selection or released to a supplier. Of course there are sellers willing to call a diamond H&A where we wouldn’t, so what we would put into ES could be on the market as “H&A” elsewhere…

For a shopper concerned with verifying our ACA guarantee we provide actual images on request - typically before we ship (just as we would a custom piece).

The reason we are not posting H&A photos for each ACA is that our overall stock (not just ACA) rotates quickly, and the manpower is devoted to acquiring and posting lab reports, Sarins, IdealScopes and magnified photos for all diamonds moving through our inventory. Those items are more in demand by the vast majority of consumers. H&A is a rarified market. Diamond sellers with large inventories will take more time to provide every last item. For now we think having grading reports, Sarins, IS and magnified images is pretty nifty.

As consumers are offered more and more information we realize demand - and expectations - are rising. Plans are in the works to display more patterning images, and our true patterning guarantee will still be in place.

I recalled your previous query, here, and I am wondering, is some influence causing you to question ACA patterning in particular? If so, contact me by PM or here – I’ll be happy to discuss it with you.

Or, is there a particular diamond you’re considering? If so I''d be happy to work with you on it.

John
thanks for the above link,it just that WF pride themself about very strict A&H pattens but never post pictures on their site.

 

[jennalyns]

aren''t the idealscope pictures arrows pictures? all of the ACA stones I''ve seen on WF''s website have the idealscope image, and a lot of the ES ones do too... I requested a hearts picture on a stone I''m looking at and had it within a couple of days, it looks gorgeous to me. I''ve seen tons of people on here posting their idealscope images, is that not the same thing? sorry if that''s a dumb question...

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 3/20/2005 5:14:43 AM
Author: jennalyns
aren''t the idealscope pictures arrows pictures? all of the ACA stones I''ve seen on WF''s website have the idealscope image, and a lot of the ES ones do too... I requested a hearts picture on a stone I''m looking at and had it within a couple of days, it looks gorgeous to me. I''ve seen tons of people on here posting their idealscope images, is that not the same thing? sorry if that''s a dumb question...

The IS shows the arrows just as well as a h&a scope.
The hearts take a h&a scope to properly show them.

 

[strmrdr]

As John and I discussed multiple times,
If WF wants to be seen as the keeper of the true h&a standard then they need to show them at every opertunity and for every stone so marked.
Thats my bottom line opinion on it.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 3/20/2005 9:23:53 AM
Author: strmrdr
As John and I discussed multiple times,
If WF wants to be seen as the keeper of the true h&a standard then they need to show them at every opertunity and for every stone so marked.
Thats my bottom line opinion on it.

I have to say I disagree with this line of thinking.

It''s fine to have high standards, but I think there becomes a point at which expectations are a bit over-the-top......especially yours, Storm.

These folks - Whiteflash and all the other vendors - are in the business of selling diamonds. They aren''t in the business of taking photographs.....it is a secondary function of meeting the primary goal, which is to sell diamonds. With the volumes these folks do, their priority must be on the person who is BUYING, not every Tom, Dick and Harry tire-kicker.

When *I* am the customer, I want the images as fast as I can get them. If they are tied up taking pictures of other stones that aren''t even in the sale process, all that does is delay the pictures *I* want to consummate my purchase.

Being the "keeper of the standard", as you call it, doesn''t require posting images on my stone in every instance in my opinion. As long as they can guarantee the standard on every stone they represent as H&A, that''s enough. By definition, a "standard" means consistency and therefore very little deviation. As such, the images for all the H&A stones would look materially the same anyway. Anyone wanting to learn more about the standard could *easily* peruse the extensive H&A tutorial here on PS provided by Brian. I own one of the ACA stones, and I can tell you that the H&A image of *my* stone look interchangeable with the images in the tutorial.

Further, I can think of an EXCELLENT reason why vendors should NOT post their H&A images for "public" consumption. Look at what just happened to some of Rhino''s images. They were copied and provided to a potential consumer to falsely represent documentation on another stone.

If the vendors allow this to happen with their images (or if they post images like this for every single stone), they could actually be HURTING the standard because those images lose their value if they are misused.

I believe that it is not only reasonable, but actually prudent for vendors to furnish those images only to the buyer of the H&A stone.

 

[macrac]

Disclaimer: The following is not directed at WF, but is a general statement about information availability on vendor web sites.

If they only supplied H&A pictures to the "buyer" of a stone, they'd be losing at least one buyer (me) with that policy. If a diamond vendor touts the perfection of their H&A stones, I as a potential buyer, would like to see for myself. I'm not going to hand over my money until I've seen everything I feel I need to see regarding a particular stone.

Though posting these pictures on the web site takes effort, it saves us, potential buyers, a considerable amount of time. Furthermore, I'd imagine the amount of time spent dealing w/ customers like myself through email requests is considerably more than the time it takes to post these images on the internet.

Say what you will about the "danger" of posting images on the web, in the end you have to accept this as the nature of the game. Consumers expectations of internet vendors (not just diamond vendors) are becoming increasingly stringent. They expect instant information, without the need for interpersonal communication. The more work I have to do to gain information about the item I'm purchasing, the less likely I am to deal with that particular vendor.

 

[baltneu]

Mara
I saw your pic on this post of the "arrows" of your ES diamond from WF. I look at that pic and the arrows look perfect to me (what do I know!), so what about your diamond is not H &A? thanks. Bill

 

[signal_4]

DANCING FIRE ... GO TO THIS THREAD TO CHECK OUT PICS OF MY WF ACA H&A DIAMOND... HOPE THIS HELPS...
SIGNAL_4

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/signal_4s-wf-aca-h-a-diamond-pictures.26688/

 

[Dancing Fire]

AL

These folks - Whiteflash and all the other vendors - are in the business of selling diamonds. They aren't in the business of taking photographs.....it is a secondary function of meeting the primary goal, which is to sell diamonds. With the volumes these folks do, their priority must be on the person who is BUYING, not every Tom, Dick and Harry tire-kicker


that's the reason why they should post H&A pictures so tom,dick and harry wouldn't need to call

 

[Dancing Fire]

Unlike most of the vendors, we no longer market our ideal cut diamonds as being "Hearts & Arrows" even when they exhibit a very nice pattern because we''ve noted that the cutters have changed the cutting style just a bit to speed up production time and it has changed the consistency of the patterns so that we don''t feel they "make the grade" in comparison to what we were seeing a few years ago... Just because an ideal cut diamond may exhibit a pattern of hearts and a pattern of arrows, does not necessarily make it a Hearts & Arrows diamond regardless of what it is being called and what might be inscribed on the girdle edge of the diamond (if H&A is inscribed on the girdle edge of a diamond prior to it being submitted to a lab for grading the lab will mention it on the lab report because the inscription is a characteristic of the diamond, but not necessarily because it exhibits crisp and complete hearts and arrows)...

R/T
you no longer market H&A stones but, are you pricing them as H&A or non H&A stones?

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 3/21/2005 2:21:43 AM
Author: signal_4
DANCING FIRE ... GO TO THIS THREAD TO CHECK OUT PICS OF MY WF ACA H&A DIAMOND... HOPE THIS HELPS...
SIGNAL_4

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/signal_4s-wf-aca-h-a-diamond-pictures.26688/

signal_4

thanks for posting it they''re a rare site,i just wonder if GOG can post H&A of their stones,why don''t wf do the same with their aca.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 3/21/2005 4

8:31 AM
Author: Dancing Fire



that''s the reason why they should post H&A pictures so tom,dick and harry wouldn''t need to call

But typically, Tom, Dick and Harry don''t pick up the phone in the first place unless/until they are in the market to purchase. At that point, it''s valid to ask for images.

With respect to Macrac: If they only supplied H&A pictures to the "buyer" of a stone, they''d be losing at least one buyer (me) with that policy. If a diamond vendor touts the perfection of their H&A stones, I as a potential buyer, would like to see for myself. I''m not going to hand over my money until I''ve seen everything I feel I need to see regarding a particular stone.

Absolutely true, and I agree. What I meant, and what I should have said, is "potential buyer".

It''s completely reasonable to expect a vendor to furnish H&A images if you are considering the purchase of a stone. I personally believe it''s less reasonable to expect a vendor to expend a HUGE amount of labor/effort taking H&A pictures of every single stone on their website just to satisfy those who might like to see the images (but who aren''t in the market for a diamond).

Now, if someone wanted to volunteer their personal time to do it for free -- without being paid -- then fine. But I don''t think most vendors work that way....they generally pay their staff, and they pay them to support the sales orders. If that means getting H&A pictures for a potential buyer, worth paying for.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 3/21/2005 4:42:12 AM
Author: Dancing Fire

thanks for posting it they''re a rare site,i just wonder if GOG can post H&A of their stones,why don''t wf do the same with their aca.

My guess would be this: because GOG''s in-house inventory hasn''t historically been anywhere close to the volume of in-house inventory that WF carries.

Also, GOG''s focus is a bit different than WF. All the fancy, handy-dandy measurement tools are what makes Rhino tick. Don''t think those things come for "free"; often, those stones are comparably priced with branded stones...and it''s because of the extra gadget-measuring that Rhino provides.

 

[macrac]

Date: 3/21/2005 11:59:56 AM
Author: aljdewey

[/i]Absolutely true, and I agree. What I meant, and what I should have said, is ''potential buyer''.

Ah, my apologies for the misunderstanding.

I don''t disagree with what you''re saying, mostly what I expressed is "wishful thinking". There are so many diamonds I''m interested in from so many vendors, it would be nice to get the same information intensity from all of them. But, alas, that isn''t always possible. Furthermore, if my having to email for specific information keeps prices down, then I''m all for it.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 3/21/2005 12

4:27 PM
Author: aljdewey

Date: 3/21/2005 4:42:12 AM
Author: Dancing Fire

thanks for posting it they''re a rare site,i just wonder if GOG can post H&A of their stones,why don''t wf do the same with their aca.

My guess would be this: because GOG''s in-house inventory hasn''t historically been anywhere close to the volume of in-house inventory that WF carries.

Also, GOG''s focus is a bit different than WF. All the fancy, handy-dandy measurement tools are what makes Rhino tick. Don''t think those things come for ''free''; often, those stones are comparably priced with branded stones...and it''s because of the extra gadget-measuring that Rhino provides.

AL

if WF claims to be so strict on grading the H&A stones, i think they should post it on the site. even the ES selections,so the potential buyer can compare what is a true H&A, and what isn''t. it just seem like the most important photo is missing on their site. it''s hard to imagine every ACA (harts) will look like their stock photos.one thing about GOG ,Jon has all the infor posted on their site,there is no need to ask for another photo because i''m sure they already posted their best shot. if i see a stone i like i''ll give Jon a call and ask more questions.