Do Hearts and Arrows Look Bad In Halos?

[phaskellhall]

I just received an email from a highly respected ring designer (an associate at least) and when I mentioned that I have my own stone, they asked to see the dimensions. I sent the certificate and they told me a hearts and arrows cushion diamond won't look great in a halo setting because it will sit up too high due to variance in the girdle thickness. They then pushed hard to buy one of their stones instead.

I've spent a good bit of time finding my stone and it just seems kind of wrong to push a whole new type of cushion cut when asking about the setting. Maybe this is normal and it's an easy way for the designer to pick up a new stone sale but I wanted to see if there was any truth in their claims?

I'm currently debating between two brilliant cushions with one being a H&A so if this cut doesn't do well in Halos then that could be a determining factor on picking the other stone. If it's just a marketing ploy they ask every new inquiry, then I'll disregard it and not take it too seriously.

Any other users here have Hearts and Arrows cushion center stones in square halos?

 

[lovedogs]

That sounds like complete BS. Unless the dimensions of your stone would mean it being too high in a setting to be practical, I'm highly skeptical. Do you have the stats / lab report of your stone? If the cut of your stone is too deep then maybe I understand what the designer is saying. But that has zero to do with it being a h&a cushion, and everything to do with dimension.

 

[lovedogs]

True h&a cushions (like the ones from bgd https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamond/brian-gavins-cushion-hearts-and-arrows) look outstanding in halo settings.

Edit. Just realized you are the poster who has an H&a cushion from bgd. In that case, this designer is a total BSer. It is absolute nonsense that the H&a won't work in a halo setting. If you do end up buying the bgd stone, I'd personally have them do the setting as well. That way you won't have to worry about the stone being damaged/getting insurance on it.

 

[Miss Marple]

I’d take the comment to mean that they don’t really want to work with your stone, and find another vendor.

 

[AV_]

.

CERTAINLY NOT.

... pave next to a particularly bright diamond looks like snow flakes on deep ice... they sing to each other!

 

[phaskellhall]

I’d take the comment to mean that they don’t really want to work with your stone, and find another vendor.

Augh that is frustrating. This is one of the top jewelry designers recommended here. I’ll wait to see what their response is before going forward.

 

[new-beginning]

you mentioned you spoke with 'an associate' - I would attempt to speak directly with the designer.

 

[phaskellhall]

you mentioned you spoke with 'an associate' - I would attempt to speak directly with the designer.

I emailed his website and got a quote back from him (info@name email). Then I responded with a few more questions and another name responded with the above concerns with my stone.

 

[KKJohnson]

I think the person you wish to do the setting is totally full of it or they are telling you they don’t know how to work with your gorgeous diamond. It is recommended that when buying a super ideal/specialty cut stone that you have the same vendor set it, they know how to best set their diamonds with the upmost care

 

[tkyasx78]

Find a new designer.

A H&A stone would look amazing in the halo setting!

 

[Karl_K]

Some stones are more tricky than others to set in a halo and the stone can change how tight the halo can fit and other things.
It is possible one specific halo design does not work well with one specific stone type.
Ask for more details and if you just get buy one of ours then its time to move on.

 

[jkonst]

I don't know your exact situation, but - based on my recent experience, some of the vendors recommended here do not play well together! Healthy competition is a good thing, but the lack of cooperation between companies was a bit frustrating to me. Based on what you are describing, I wouldn't be surprised to hear you're dealing with the same designer I spoke to...

 

[yssie]

Could there be some valid reasoning for this statement? Yes.
People in all industries will simplify when communicating with non-experts, and sometimes that simplification removes so much nuance that it becomes a blanket statement that is obviously unjustifiable when taken at face value.

It's also possible that they're lying and hoping that you'll change your mind and buy their wares instead.

Right now you don't have the full story - request it.

 

[Victor Canera]

Hi @phaskellhall

There seems to be a few different style of hearts and arrows cushions in the marketplace with slightly differing ways of tackling a specific issue.

What is the issue? The issue is that in order to achieve a hearts and arrows effect in a cushion, you have to basically replicate the pavilion facets of a round diamond. A round diamond though has a symmetric circular outline where it’s the same distance from the culet to the girdle on every side. A cushion does not have this. It’s a longer distance from the culet to the corners than it is from the culet to its flatter sides.

The issue becomes; how does a diamond designer work in these facets that were originally equidistant in a round diamond to an outline where they’re not.



Strategy 1- One way this has been tackled by some hearts and arrows cushion cutters is that they greatly vary the girdle thicknesses in order to equalize the distance between some sides and others while retaining the exact pavilion facets of a round.

Strategy 2 - Others have chosen other strategies by creating additional facets along the pavilion but this slightly changes the face up appearance of the diamond from a round’s. It might also created slightly weaker areas of refraction (visible with ASET) where those additional facets have been added.

If the diamond designer has chosen strategy 2 by creating additional facets along the pavilion, eliminating the need for girdle thickness variation and the girdle thickness is more even, than there won’t be a height issue.

When a person takes great pains to perfectly fit a diamond in a halo, so that it fits like a hand in a glove, variance in the girdle thickness will cause the diamond to sit up higher in a halo as opposed to a stone with an equal girdle. This has happened to me with some hearts and arrows cushions (that have attacked the issue with strategy 1) and it’s also occurred in some OEC diamonds with very wavy girdles.

In a prong set halo, a diamond can not sit lower than the lowest point of its girdle when looking at the diamond from its side. The girdle sits slightly above the halo. It’s a microscopic amount higher in a well fitting halo but it’s there. The stone is supported in the halo by its pavilion facets. So if we say that a diamond can only sit as low as the lowest point of its girdle, then a large variance in girdle thickness does make it sit up higher. A wavy girdle has the same effect. A different question is whether the client will notice the height difference. I notice it but others may not. I think being up front and transparent about this would be the right thing to do for a vendor.

I think you or someone else is discussing this with a member of my staff? In which case, @yssie has absolutely nailed the reason for the misunderstanding. We get a large number of emails each day. Sometimes it becomes a challenge to be able to verbalize the reason for a comment with a deep explanation because we try to respond to everyone in an efficient manner. Nicholas who's been helping you certainly had a good intention in making you aware of this issue but could have explained it better.

Good Luck!

 

[Victor Canera]

To explain this issue even more, here's a simplified diagram of a halo when looked at from the side.

 

[yssie]

A very informative explanation from Victor - I learnt something new today.


@phaskellhall My initial reaction to your post was "...that doesn't sound right". But I'm having a bangle made with Leon Mege right now, and he told me that what I wanted couldn't be done in platinum. Had I posted that here most consumer responses would likely have been disbelieving, but after several years in this world I understand why he felt that way... and I understand that there might be other limitations that seem strange to me because I simply don't know enough to follow.

I've learnt that the only way to be happy with custom work is to choose a designer I trust, whose aesthetic matches my priorities for a given project, and then trust that designer. I’ve not done that in the past - and every time I decided that I knew better, well, I wound up unhappy with the result.

Several months ago I reached out to one of my favourite designers, Erika Winters, to have some opals set into earrings. She was hesitant because her aesthetic demands pinpoint precision, and my opals, whilst oval, just aren't sufficiently precisely shaped to be enhanced by her settings. I decided to go in a different direction with another designer with whom I've had excellent experiences, Caysie van Bebber, who is more comfortable working with fluid shapes. We chose a deliberately forgiving design and I absolutely adore my new earrings!


BGD’s workmanship, whilst objectively very good, is objectively of lower quality than some other boutique designers’. This is visible in attention to detail and perfection of finish. BGD’s pricing is commensurately lower than those other designers'. Choose a designer you trust whose aesthetic matches your priorities for this project and then trust that designer.

 

[phaskellhall]

Wow, what a thorough explanation and as a new visitor to PR I was shocked to see you posted here. I also wanted to make it clear that I wasn't looking to call anyone out or make claims that weren't true (hence why I didn't mention VC by name), it's just that Nicholas has been very forward with buying another stone at least when it came to using the hearts and arrows. I've email him back and I've decided to return the hearts and arrows cut for other reasons (the more standard cushion brilliant fits the overall bill better). I'd love to work with you guys but from that first email it just seemed like I was being pushed to buy a completely different stone when that process of the ring hunt now feels complete.

Let's chat tomorrow and hopefully I'll be able to post another beautiful creation of yours on this wonderful forum. Thanks for the diagram too, that explains the problem very well.

 

[LLJsmom]

@phaskellhall I am glad that you have a better understanding of the situation and @Victor Canera thanks for such a thorough and clear explanation. OP, I look forward to seeing your completed ring. I am sure it will be everything you hope for.

 

[lovedogs]

I'm happy that VC explained the situation in detail. Obviously I was very disbelieving at first, but his explanation made much more sense vs the simple "h&a cushions won't work in a halo). Given Victor's precision designs and extremely high quality of work, I can understand where he is coming from, particularly in terms of a round halo setting for a cushion diamond.

 

[phaskellhall]

I'm happy that VC explained the situation in detail. Obviously I was very disbelieving at first, but his explanation made much more sense vs the simple "h&a cushions won't work in a halo). Given Victor's precision designs and extremely high quality of work, I can understand where he is coming from, particularly in terms of a round halo setting for a cushion diamond.

I don't really want a round halo though...def want a squarish halo. I'll call him tomorrow and find out what can be done with my more traditional square cushion X factor stone. I think it looks more like a "real" cushion anyways and that's what my gf wants. I'm going to return the BG H&A. Even though it's beautiful, and possibly more brilliant, it's not checking the ultimate box which is a square cushion.

 

[SimoneDi]

OP, you have received great feedback here form multiple sources. I appreciate VC explaining in detail his viewport based on his aesthetics.
I used to own one of BGD’s cushions and I really loved the stone. My friend also has a BGD cushion set in a handforged halo by Steven Kirsch and it is exquisite.
I guess my point is, you found a magnificent stone already. Don’t change the stone, find the right designer for the halo setting that you envision.

 

[phaskellhall]

OP, you have received great feedback here form multiple sources. I appreciate VC explaining in detail his viewport based on his aesthetics.
I used to own one of BGD’s cushions and I really loved the stone. My friend also has a BGD cushion set in a handforged halo by Steven Kirsch and it is exquisite.
I guess my point is, you found a magnificent stone already. Don’t change the stone, find the right designer for the halo setting that you envision.

I actually own both stones at the moment. You can view them here:

I've been going back and forth on these but I think I'm going to keep the 1.8 G and send the BG back. They are very similar but the Fire, color, and size on the 1.8 is enough to push me to keep it. Plus it is less round and looks more like a cushion. I'm not changing the stone because of the designer.

 

[LLJsmom]

I prefer the G too. It’s gorgeous. Who sells these?

 

[TimMD]

I just stumbled on this thread and went back and read the other and first look at the video, for some reason I was also drawn to the G. I love BGD and have a round in a cushion shaped halo from him but not knowing anything about the stones, when I watched the video, I really loved the G, it talks to me more. I am sure it looks even better in person. I wish you luck in your decision and both stones are beautiful but I like the G.

 

[sep004]

I love the cut of the G!

 

[phaskellhall]

I love the cut of the G!

Just mailed back the BG diamond and went with the G. Now time to get a setting by Victor! Should have an update in the next 3-4 weeks.

 

[Bern]

Just joined and following this thread. Recently purchased a Tripe EX-1.01 CT stone (H,VS1) with almost exact same ASET image, ironically also putting into a halo setting ..... Hopefully has similar sparkle, brilliance and fire.
Dimensions are: 5.78 x 5.71 x 3.99 mm
61% Table
69.9% Depth

 

[whitewave]

I was going to ask what the dimension are.