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Different color grade on Independent Appraisal..help!

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Wallycat2

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 24, 2008
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Well I found the diamond E ring I wanted after many hours of research on PS. I ended up using one of the very most preferred vendors mentioned on this website. The service was great. The ring and diamond arrived about 10 days ago.

Specs of what I bought:
Round Brilliant
Hearts and Arrows cut
Color F
Clarity SI1 (eye clean to the vendor and my standards)
Just over 1 carat
The HSA, ASET pics, 40x mag pics, etc. all were excellent.
The diamond is mounted on a simple flush mount side stone setting.
The ring faces up white and is very sparkly, brilliant, and fiery.

I took the ring to an Independent Appraiser today, he was the closest one to my home on the PS list of appraisers. He''s GIA certified and has 30+ years in diamonds. He''s been appraising as his own business for 5 years.

All of his measurements matched up, except for Color. Please read on.

He stated that looking at the ring face up he was expecting it would be an E. I attributed this to the H&A cut, and he agreed. It faces up very white.

Reading other related postings on PS I found that it is more difficult to determine color when the diamond is mounted. Part of this issue is that color grading is typically done looking from the bottom which you can''t do when it''s in the setting. But the setting on my ring is such that it''s fairly open from the sides to the point you can see from the side/bottom looking up and get a good view of it. As he then tested it from this angle side by side against his test set of certified diamonds, he determined the color to be I, or at the best he could concede it''s H.

We went round and round for a half hour on this issue. He had me take a look, and against the E, F, and even G certified diamonds he was using for comparison, my diamond definitely showed some yellow. He then showed my diamond next to the I-color and it was ballpark similar. I am very dissapointed. I know it''s considered difficult to get an accurate reading of color on a mounted stone but F is a colorless grade and this ring is clearly not colorless. I don''t feel the fact it is mounted caused the viewing of the stone to look warm.

The Appraiser suggested I contact the vendor and ask that my stone be regraded. He said he would give me my next appraisal free (if I chose not to keep this stone) if the new grading was again an F. He''s that confident it''s an incorrect color grading.

If it was one color grade difference, I might be less worried. But F to I is a fairly significant jump and represents some real dollars.

1) Is there any way I am overreacting?
2) What are my next steps? Another independent appraisal? Or call the vendor?
3) How are such incidents typically resolved?

The site I used is known for great customer service and I know they will make sure I am satisfied but I did want some PS feedback before I do anything.

Thanks in advance for any help.
 
Your appraiser is generous in his offer of the free appraisal if he is wrong. I am sure the PS vendor will be very happy to work out the problem with you. Lucky thing to find two good sources! Good luck!
 
First thing is who certified your stone? I ask because if it is EGL they are known for being off a bit and it''s the risk you take when going for a cheaper stone.

Second, I would call the vendor, they are in the best position to make this right IMO. If they are a trusted PS vendor I am confident they will sort it out with you.
 
AGS Certified

I knew I was forgetting something in the post.

Thanks for responses so far.
 
Date: 1/17/2009 6:16:21 PM
Author: Wallycat2
AGS Certified


I knew I was forgetting something in the post.


Thanks for responses so far.

Hmmm... that is really odd then! I would tend to think the appraiser is wrong here. There is no way AGS would be off so many color grades unless there was some kind of stone mixup or something...but call the vendor I am sure they can tell you how best to proceed.
 
Contact the vendor asap.

Is the diamond laser engraved?
Did the number match the report if it was?
 
How this has been resolved in the past is have another appraiser look at it and they paid for it.
I recommend that you pay the appraiser and they reimburse you.

Dave Atlas is the one used last time and he found it had been missgraded by 1 grade.
It is rare with AGS but it sometimes happens.
Here is his website:
http://www.datlas.com/

He posts on PS under the name oldminer.
 
It''s laser engraved. Per the appraiser the number on the diamond matched the cert.

Storm - the appraiser''s most logical conclusion was possibly the grade was recorded incorrectly on the cert. He was really surprised by it and said he''d never seen this in reviewing many diamonds over the years. Especially given an AGS (or GIA) cert.
 
Date: 1/17/2009 6:45:58 PM
Author: Wallycat2
It''s laser engraved. Per the appraiser the number on the diamond matched the cert.


Storm - the appraiser''s most logical conclusion was possibly the grade was recorded incorrectly on the cert. He was really surprised by it and said he''d never seen this in reviewing many diamonds over the years. Especially given an AGS (or GIA) cert.

stranger things have happened I guess.
Contact the vendor and see how they want to handle it.
 
Date: 1/17/2009 6:44:00 PM
Author: strmrdr
How this has been resolved in the past is have another appraiser look at it and they paid for it.
I recommend that you pay the appraiser and they reimburse you.

Dave Atlas is the one used last time and he found it had been missgraded by 1 grade.
It is rare with AGS but it sometimes happens.
Here is his website:
http://www.datlas.com/

He posts on PS under the name oldminer.
That was me. I second sending the ring to another appraiser. If you have access to this machine, it seems to work accurately, even with mounted stones: http://www.kassoy.com/ec/1/product.asp?idDept=319&idProduct=1871 FYI, it gave my stone the same colour grade as Dave.
 
I was just thinking about Harriet's situation with an AGS stone coming in at a lower color. Her first appraiser came in two colors grades lower and Dave Atlas graded it one color lower. But I cannot understand a discrepancy of F to I color! The only way to really know is to send it to someone like Dave Atlas who has the color machine.

Umm, the thought comes to mind to wonder if you used the same first appraiser that Harriet used. What city is it?
 
I am in Ohio. I don''t think I went to the same appraiser, he would have remembered similar circumstances and mentioned it to me. I''ll pose the question to the vendor and see if they agree I should send it to someone with the Kassoy machine. Thanks
 
Hmmm... this is quite an interesting / alarming subject to a newbie like myself.. possible misgrading of colors... i just bought a D-IF from an online vendor and am still waiting to receive it, should i be worried?

does things like this happen often? how about misgrading of clarity level? does that happen too?
 
Wallycat-What have you decided to do?
 
Date: 1/18/2009 9:26:11 AM
Author: blastdoor
Hmmm... this is quite an interesting / alarming subject to a newbie like myself.. possible misgrading of colors... i just bought a D-IF from an online vendor and am still waiting to receive it, should i be worried?


does things like this happen often? how about misgrading of clarity level? does that happen too?

Very rarely if you buy from trusted online vendors and the stone has an AGS or GIA cert. Something is still weird here, I have a very hard time believing that AGS would be off 4 color grades. One off sometimes, I can believe. But 4??? Just seems weird.
 
Contact the vendor.

Presumably you love the stone or it wouldn’t have gone even this far and the question is an academic one of whether AGSL made a mistake in their grading. Although this is always possible, a gemologist looking at it mounted, or a Sarin colorimeter in the same circumstances, is not the right way to make this call. It’s far more likely that the variation lies at the appraiser than at AGSL since there seems to be no debate that it’s the correct stone.

This is all a ‘mind clean issue’ and a perfectly reasonable solution is to decide you don’t care. It *IS* an AGSL-F and it’s documented as such. You do love it. Presumably you’re happy with the pricing and the rest of the deal. That sounds an awful lot like success. If the objective is to be able to walk away KNOWING that the grading is consistent with GIA standards, I would want to get it straight from the horses’ mouth at this point. That means using GIA as the arbiter, it means taking the stone out of the setting, it means waiting a few weeks and it means paying a few fees. Another perfectly reasonable choice is to choose a different stone that doesn’t have this cloud over it. Inconvenient to be sure, and this is the sort of thing that makes jewelers furious at appraisers but it’s not necessary that you be in the middle of that fight.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 
Date: 1/18/2009 9:26:11 AM
Author: blastdoor
Hmmm... this is quite an interesting / alarming subject to a newbie like myself.. possible misgrading of colors... i just bought a D-IF from an online vendor and am still waiting to receive it, should i be worried?

does things like this happen often? how about misgrading of clarity level? does that happen too?
This seems to be an unusual situation and at the moment there are various scenarios/ possibilities, so I wouldn't worry too much - get an appraisal to give you some peace of mind on your purchase by all means to verify your D IF.

Wallycat, I also ditto contacting the vendor.
 
Date: 1/18/2009 9:26:11 AM
Author: blastdoor
Hmmm... this is quite an interesting / alarming subject to a newbie like myself.. possible misgrading of colors... i just bought a D-IF from an online vendor and am still waiting to receive it, should i be worried?


does things like this happen often? how about misgrading of clarity level? does that happen too?
Grading of both clarity and color involves a certain amount of judgment and so it’s very important to understand in whom you are placing your trust. This is why the labs have become so important. AGSL and GIA hire top shelf graders, they grade under optimum conditions and they use the finest tools and methodology available. That’s not to say they won’t ever make a mistake but it’s sure a good place to start.

If you’ve got a D-IF grade from GIA or AGSL, you’ve got confirmation from an independent expert that it’s the correct stone and that it’s not been damaged since the lab saw it, I think you can be confident that you’ve got a top grade diamond.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 
Wallycat,

This is a "wait till Monday" moment. Your situation sounds a bit unique and your vendor hopefully will
help you resolve the conflicting color grade issue. Until then, we can only respond hypothetically.

Please keep us informed.

www.metrojewelryappraisers.com
 
Thanks Neatfreak, Lorelei and Neil for your clarifications, yes, its a GIA-certified and your advises sure made me feel a lot better now.

And all the best to you Wallycat, do let us know the outcome on whatever you decide to do.
 
What an unusual state of affairs. Please post again Wallycat2 when you have more info.
 
Wallycat2,
For what it's worth, I kept the stone because it faces up white. I played with the colour-grading machine last week, it agreed with Dave Atlas, but I wasn't bothered. Good luck!
 
Neatfreak - to reset, the independent appraiser determined the color to be 2 to 3 shades different (not 4). The AGS color grade is F and the appraiser considers it H-I.

Im waiting on a response from the vendor. I sent an email so the details are documented. I will call them tomorrow if I don''t get an email response.

I am no diamond expert, and have not seen tons and tons of them like experts on here. I am happy with the deal I got, and like the ring/diamond. But with all due respect denver just dropping the matter is not a reasonable solution in my eyes. My reasons are: 1) consumer confidence issue; 2) F is a colorless grade. I saw color as did my indy appraiser; and 3) Initially I wanted a G-H SI1 (I believe Lorelei calls it "sweet spot") H&A but couldn''t find one I liked. I dropped to an F and paid incrementally for that drop. If it was determined to be even just 1 shade off per the appraiser, I would have a bit less concern. But 2-3 color shade difference causes more concern.

Im not looking to make a federal issue out of this. I just want some piece of mind. Whether the discrepancy is just differing opinions, or whether a mistake was made (either by AGS or the appraiser) I just want to get to the bottom of it. I used an Independent Appraiser, and found him through Pricescope''s link. I saw his credentials and certification. I queried him on his experience. I feel I did everything right to make sure I spent my money wisely and got what I wanted and expected.

Thanks.
 
Do not mistrust your own eye either. Sounds like the appraiser used a master set, and you saw for yourself that the diamond was graded incorrectly. My latest drama with GIA got me in touch with a master diamond grader Stephen Hofer who is grading one of my fancy diamonds that i showed here changes color. I wouldn''t just accept that because a stone has a cert. it is the be all end all. And I would find no comfort in fooling myself into thinking that a piece of paper, or a laser inscription meant my diamond was something it wasn''t. In my case, GIA said they had never seen such a phenomenon before, despite their attempts to explain what was occuring, and admission of the change of color, they refused to document it. So, I sent the picture all over the world, and finally got some help. As Mr. Hofer is a physicist with more tools available, I''m hoping he''ll be able to explain in detail exactly what is happening. Anyway, my point is, humans make mistakes... And, there is nothing wrong with wanting what you paid for. If they sold you an F color diamond, that is what you should get. I suppose that is the real danger of buying without seeing in person...
 
Wallycat2, I understand what you''re syaing.
 
Date: 1/18/2009 5:01:20 PM
Author: Harriet
Wallycat2, I understand what you''re syaing.
Ditto.
 
Date: 1/18/2009 11:18:55 AM
Author: Wallycat2
But with all due respect denver just dropping the matter is not a reasonable solution in my eyes...Im not looking to make a federal issue out of this. I just want some piece of mind. Whether the discrepancy is just differing opinions, or whether a mistake was made (either by AGS or the appraiser) I just want to get to the bottom of it. I used an Independent Appraiser, and found him through Pricescope's link. I saw his credentials and certification. I queried him on his experience. I feel I did everything right to make sure I spent my money wisely and got what I wanted and expected.
Neil is right, and isn't suggesting you drop this...you have basically two choices - have it unset and sent to a different lab, or get a different stone; since there are so many round ideals just over a carat on the market, another stone is probably the easier route. IMO you made a mistake not getting a second opinion before it was set since that makes grading somewhat more subjective.
 
If you could see the difference yourself, like it was obvious to you that it was showing more color than an F, I''d just return it and start over. Yeah, you could fiddle around with other appraisers etc but unless it''s an unusual cut/hard to find, just start fresh and don''t spend more time on it.

From what I''ve heard, AGS is extremely reliable in general so I wouldn''t hesitate to continue shopping for AGS graded diamonds, if I were you.
 
While options are being discussed (and I can see the advantages of starting fresh...) another bit of technology that may be superior overall is the SAS 2000, if I have that right.

Richard Sherwood, a highly recommended appraiser, has this in Florida, probably from Martin Haske, in MA

Then again, I see Martin is a listed appraiser, now, on this board, as well.

If you read up about this tool, you may be impressed as to its advantages over the coloromiter. Though all these tools, it seems, when used well, are used only in conjunction with an appraiser''s expert opinion.
 
I appreciate all the feedback.

I asked that the stone be sent to Mr. Atlas. I read Mr. Atlas'' comments from when Harriet went through this (and others high praise for his work) and trusted his objectivity. Mr. Atlas graded the stone an F. He also said the SI1 clarity was on the conservative side. Nice bonus! I''m satisfied.

I do still wonder what happened on the appraisal and what I was seeing. However I am trusting the AGS grade and Mr. Atlas'' confirmation more than my appraisal meeting. Too many variables - is it possible his test set colors were out of order? Was the lighting the issue? Was it the angle we were looking at since the stone is mounted? I love the ring and was quesy about even sending it out yesterday. But I needed something to confirm the AGS grade.

I can''t say enough good about White Flash''s customer service (before, during, and after my drama). Vera and Traci have been great to work with.
 
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