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Difference between AVR and CER (Ideal cut OECs)

xxxxxx

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jan 6, 2019
Messages
819
Hi everybody,

I have read that there are "hard" feelings between the AVR (August Vintage Round) and CER (Canera European Cut) founders - because their own ideal cut OECs are very very similiar.

I really enjoy the CER diamonds more than the AVR. I guess it is the more elongated slender flower facets and they somehow meet in the middle of the diamond differently than in the AVRs?
1. picture - AVR 2. picture CER
AVR.jpg perfekt diamond__.jpg


Has anybody spent some time analyzing the differences? Is there a big difference?
Has anybody maybe even seen both in real life and noticed a difference?

Thank you for sharing your opinions!
 

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anangel

Brilliant_Rock
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Aug 1, 2008
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838
In my humble, novice opinion, the AVRs look more like OECs to me, and the CERs border on being trannies.
It’s all personal perference I think. I like the big, chunky flashes in my AVR but haven’t seen an CER in person. If someone wants to send me one, I’ll happily do comparison shots :lol-2:
 

LittleRed

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
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Jan 3, 2018
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548
A good topic! This is something I’ve wondered myself. It would be great if someone here had experience with both, but even experience and opinions with either is helpful.
 

OcnGypZ

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 18, 2006
Messages
387
The AV's most resemble my original OEC's. You'll need to see both stones in person and see which you like the best.
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
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58,547
I love both vendors so I am not going to say one is better than the other. I happen to have AVRs due to them having what I wanted at the time, and I have seen probably at least a dozen in person. I'd be interested in having 10 stones from both vendors to see if I could separate them by vendor just with visual inspection, but I cannot say that I think I could do that with total accuracy.

But what I will say is that not every stone is identical in either inventory. The AVR in my avatar photo has one of the prettiest flower facet centers that I have seen. However, I am not sure you could tell a huge difference in any of these stones without magnification. You'll see color more, you might see clarity characteristics if the clarity is in the lower SI range, for example. I look at stones individually and see that some have a greater spread (diameter) than another due to some being cut deeper or having thicker girdles.

What I would recommend to anyone is to see who has the stone closest to your spec and price preferences, and if both do, I highly recommend ordering both to look at in person. At the time I bought mine, I ordered several AVRs to look at (2-3 at a time) before I finally chose this one. I had to learn my preferences as far as size and color go, but there weren't big differences in cut in the ones I saw at that time. Again, it's the total package that has to appeal to you, and you really cannot determine that from magnified photos because that is not how you'll see the stone on your finger.
 

TreeScientist

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
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Jan 16, 2018
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1,256
While I haven't seen either in person, both are beautiful, and I believe that both exhibit excellent light return. They do have slightly different optics, with CERs typically having larger crown angles and smaller pavilion angles than AVRs, but I think you need to evaluate each stone on a case-by-case basis.

One thing to look out for in regards to AVRs though is the depth. AVRs will have slightly greater depths than CERs due to their slightly different geometries and pointed culets, but if you go the AVR route, try to find a stone with a 64-66% depth (no higher than 67%). A lot of the AVRs I've seen have depths approaching 70% with Very Thick to Extremely Thick girdles. Like this one:
https://www.augustvintageinc.net/co...ct-f-vs2-august-vintage-european-cut-74534809

There is absolutely no reason for an OEC to have this thick of a girdle from a light performance perspective, and it is a blatant attempt to save weight. So definitely pay attention to the depth and face-up diameter of the stones when making your decision.
 
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xxxxxx

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jan 6, 2019
Messages
819
@anangel your AVR really is beautiful!

@diamondseeker2006 thank you for responding to this thread! I have reread your AVR posts several times. I'm particulary envious that youre AVR was cut by Yoram. I did read an answer of yours on another thread were you stated ( I think it was in 2016) that you felt your AVR was really on the bigger side for your lifestyle. Do you still sometimes "struggle" with the size?

That would be so nice to have twenty ideal cut OECs to examine - sounds like a dream!
 

xxxxxx

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jan 6, 2019
Messages
819
@TreeScientist Thank you for your number based approach! I did use some time yesterday to compare the different numbers between the currently listed CERs and AVRs. What I noticed was that the CERs crown/pav. angles were very similiar between each stone - whereas the AVRs had a bigger variance between the stones.
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
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I think the cut differences in AVRs have more to do with various cutters cutting the stones over time. I don't think he is using the cutters who cut the thicker girdles now. I think some variation in general is fine. Certainly antique OECs differ from one another!
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Jan 11, 2006
Messages
58,547
@diamondseeker2006 thank you for responding to this thread! I have reread your AVR posts several times. I'm particulary envious that youre AVR was cut by Yoram. I did read an answer of yours on another thread were you stated ( I think it was in 2016) that you felt your AVR was really on the bigger side for your lifestyle. Do you still sometimes "struggle" with the size?

That would be so nice to have twenty ideal cut OECs to examine - sounds like a dream!

You know, the honest answer is that I'd be perfectly happy with a smaller stone, like maybe closer to 2.0 cts. What swayed me to get this stone was the fact that Yoram cut it! I honestly think it's too big for my daughters whose own engagement rings are closer to 1 ct., but the sentimental part that Yoram cut it makes it really hard to part with. I got the antique asscher which is similar in size, so they'll either choose to wear them or sell them! I hope they wait until I am not around if they ever sell either ring! lol!

I think the main difficulty with both vendors is that there is such a small selection of stones available. I watched the inventory for a couple of years for the specs I wanted and a stone never appeared. So that's when I started ordering stones that were outside of my preferred specs to determine what might work. I started out wanting around 1.8 cts and H VS+. But that never came. I found when I looked at stones that I could see the facet pattern better the larger the diamond!!!! So I ended up moving up in size but down a color grade. I'd still prefer H color, but overall, the diamond I have is pretty perfect. My second one, which is a light yellow, was cut by someone else and it is cut really beautifully, too.
 
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Victor Canera

Shiny_Rock
Trade
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Oct 8, 2010
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261
Hi Lessics,

You’re very on point with some of your observations about the CER.

I designed the CER to have a similar diameter of a MRB while also having the characteristics of an OEC (such as the steep crown, table facets, LGFs etc) and also having excellent light performance. The market research we had done prior to finalizing the CER design indicated that clients absolutely didn’t want to give up significant diameter from a MRB. From a design perspective, this makes you to design a diamond with this in mind.

The CER’s meant to have a visible floral pattern under the table. From the design samples that we created, going with an old OEC design almost eliminated the floral pattern under the table because of the very low shallow LGFs. So I would characterize the CER as an OEC but almost bordering on a transitional cut.

The third thing is the consistency. All of my production of CERs are cut according to a single design template and the goal is definitely to have them perform at an equal level. I think this is the reason why there won’t be much visual variance from one stone to another. Their performance will also be very similar.

All the best,
 
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