Did this jeweler pull a fast one on me? (EGL vs GIA debate)

[branxs2]

Hi guys, I wanted to get a running discussion on the current landscape of EGL vs GIA certified diamonds.

So I went into the jewelers a few days ago and absolutely fell in love with one of the diamonds. The jeweler started by showing me GIA diamonds which were expensive but looked great. Out of no where the owner of the jewelry shop brought out additional diamonds that weren't encased but in an envelop, at the time I wasn't aware that these were EGL diamonds, but I could really tell that it was an excellent cut diamond that had quite the sparkle to it and was bigger than I thought I could afford. I fell in love with it and started to haggle with them and got them down to my budget but it wasn't until I started paying that they busted out the pamphlets showed me an EGL certification for the diamond.

This alone caught me off guard, thinking all the diamonds they had were just GIA.I was price matching with rarecarat and felt that I had a great deal thinking that they were GIA certified, plus the diamond alone passed my eye test. So I decided to just put down a deposit (fully refundable) and decided to do some research.

The research I found was ASTONISHING, I've heard horror stories about the color grading having up to 6 levels of difference. I quickly complained to the owner about not letting me know the difference between EGL vs GIA in the beginning and that I would like to put my order on hold and come back in tomorrow to discuss further. They're nice people but I felt this was a big deal breaker for me, it's a HUGEEEE factor that should be noted prior to purchasing. They apologized for the 'miscommunication' and sent me a comparison between my current diamond vs EGL/GIA but I believe they aren't showing fair comparisons, just playing the price game. Here's a screenshot of what they sent me:


1. 1.71 ct I VS1 EGL $10,500 including the ring
2. 1.90 ct H/SI2 EGL $13,000 (diamond only)
3. 1.50 ct G/SI2 GIA $10,500 (diamond only)
4. 1.50 ct I/SI1 GIA $10,000 (diamond only)

At this point I feel that the trust factor is out the window, I definitely feel that they pulled a bait and switch on me. I'm wondering if it's worth using that to negotiate a better price for a diamond or just dumping them altogether. I guess I'm also interested in seeing the diamonds in person (they had a very large selection) and I believe I might just purchase a diamond online at this rate.

My question now is, when I go into the store tomorrow what's a good way to compare EGL vs GIA diamonds? I'm thinking of looking for a lower color quality GIA diamond vs the current diamond I have right now. With my current budget I can get a 1.7 J/VVS2 @ $8.9K online which would be a little bit over my budget but better clarity and GIA certified. Unfortunately rarecarat doesn't have other EGL diamonds within their searches so I'm not able to aggregate a price range. Any advice would be awesome and going about the differences of these certifications!

Thanks guys

 

[Tourmaline]

There is no comparison, since EGL certs are worthless. Good job catching it. Do not purchase an EGL diamond. If it were a better diamond, it would have been sent to GIA.

 

[flyingpig]

I recommendation is that you don't go back.
1.9c H SI2 for 13k is pure robbery. For that money, you can get GIA 2.0c H SI2
Another example, a common GIA I SI 1 at 10k??
These are the best cut diamonds with full lifetime upgrade option and 1 year buy back.
https://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond...S-I-SI1-diamond-stock-15879-cert-104091828029
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3818566.htm

RUN. Don't bother with people who tried to rip you off big time by 20~30%

 

[branxs2]

Thanks for the replies guys, I think I am going to run and just get my money back.
As far as purchasing online, do you guys do any certain checks before purchasing? I'm thinking of just purchasing this instead: https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/R170-274938056?utm_source=rarecarat&utm_medium=cpc

 

[EvaEvans]

I do not agree with the people saying that the EGL diamonds are worthless! I have used EGL - New York and their grading was pretty accurate. I just purchased EGL diamond that is currently with GIA to be certified (I sent it to be double checked). However, even if the GIA grading comes different from the EGL specifications of my diamond, I will NOT return the diamond, because I LOVE it! Being said, if you really like the diamond, what difference makes if it's EGL certified? Also, it is so simple to send it to GIA to be certified, this will cost you only $200-$250...
The only concern here that I see is paying the RIGHT price for you purchase!
You are buying the diamond, not the certificate. The certificate only indicates the price that you have to pay! Your jeweler do it right valuating the EGL diamonds lower, so it's up to the customer to buy or not EGL diamond. I personally will not skip a beautiful diamond just because it's EGL certified.

 

[denverappraiser]

GIA will look at any diamond, no matter who has previously examined it, and issue a report with weight, clarity and color grades. In the size range you’re talking, it costs $121, $110 if you don’t want the plotting diagram. Depending on where you are and how fast you want it, insured shipping will be $65/direction or so. That’s $250 total.

Why, again, is that 1.71/I/VS1 only $500 more than the 1.50/I/SI1? Grading accuracy? Cutting? Both? Something else? Who knows, but it’s not lab fees and, fundamentally, it's nothing inherent to the stone.

 

[heididdl]

Touché

I do not agree with the people saying that the EGL diamonds are worthless! I have used EGL - New York and their grading was pretty accurate. I just purchased EGL diamond that is currently with GIA to be certified (I sent it to be double checked). However, even if the GIA grading comes different from the EGL specifications of my diamond, I will NOT return the diamond, because I LOVE it! Being said, if you really like the diamond, what difference makes if it's EGL certified? Also, it is so simple to send it to GIA to be certified, this will cost you only $200-$250...
The only concern here that I see is paying the RIGHT price for you purchase!
You are buying the diamond, not the certificate. The certificate only indicates the price that you have to pay! Your jeweler do it right valuating the EGL diamonds lower, so it's up to the customer to buy or not EGL diamond. I personally will not skip a beautiful diamond just because it's EGL certified.

 

[branxs2]

I do not agree with the people saying that the EGL diamonds are worthless! I have used EGL - New York and their grading was pretty accurate. I just purchased EGL diamond that is currently with GIA to be certified (I sent it to be double checked). However, even if the GIA grading comes different from the EGL specifications of my diamond, I will NOT return the diamond, because I LOVE it! Being said, if you really like the diamond, what difference makes if it's EGL certified? Also, it is so simple to send it to GIA to be certified, this will cost you only $200-$250...
The only concern here that I see is paying the RIGHT price for you purchase!
You are buying the diamond, not the certificate. The certificate only indicates the price that you have to pay! Your jeweler do it right valuating the EGL diamonds lower, so it's up to the customer to buy or not EGL diamond. I personally will not skip a beautiful diamond just because it's EGL certified.

I think what turns me off the most is that I wasn't informed prior. I do think the diamond is beautiful for the price but what the reviews for EGL vs GIA is saying is that I can potentially get a lower grade GIA diamond for the same price which means it's opening up other options that I haven't looked at fully. I was budge at color I/VS1 EGL but now it opens the door for J/VVS2 GIA with potentially the same color resemblance that I'm about to pay. If that makes sense?

 

[Trudii]

You have to do what feels right at the end of the day, regardless of what random internet strangers say. It seems your problem is less with the EGL stone and more with the sort of way the specific stone was marketed to you. This is a significant purchase and the last thing you want is to feel taken advantage of. It sounds like you are taking a really healthy approach, broadening your search criteria and trying again. Good luck! If you post a budget and specs, the people here are really good at helping find the hidden gems that meet your criteria.

 

[MissGotRocks]

Look at the EGL grades on the 1.90 - VG, VG, Good. Cut quality counts for a lot with diamonds and that one is no GIA XXX. Everything is generally priced as it should be and you get what you pay for. It's up to you to determine the cut quality you want as well as the color and clarity.

 

[branxs2]

You have to do what feels right at the end of the day, regardless of what random internet strangers say. It seems your problem is less with the EGL stone and more with the sort of way the specific stone was marketed to you. This is a significant purchase and the last thing you want is to feel taken advantage of. It sounds like you are taking a really healthy approach, broadening your search criteria. Good luck! If you post a budget, the people here are really good at helping find the hidden gems that meet your criteria.

Thanks so much for this! Exactly, for me at this point it's the principle and finding the best price. I honestly don't think my girlfriend would sell the ring unless she wanted an upgrade but she's pretty easy going and know that it holds much more sentimental value than anything. Would I like a GIA certified one? Yes. But would I rather take some more carats at a lower price without sacrificing too much color? Of course, I can barely tell to the naked eye and the difference is like 2-3K for less size!

My budget is $10,500 with the setting being $1450 and tax. So roughly around $8100-8200 for a diamond.

 

[branxs2]

Look at the EGL grades on the 1.90 - VG, VG, Good. Cut quality counts for a lot with diamonds and that one is no GIA XXX. Everything is generally priced as it should be and you get what you pay for. It's up to you to determine the cut quality you want as well as the color and clarity.

I definitely took cut into consideration, it seems to pass the eye test for me and then I ran it into the Holloway Cut adviser as well. I know under 2 is better, but I think for the price it's looking more fair. I hope I used this correctly?

 

[flyingpig]

While 35.5/41 is not disasterous, it is not a combo many PSers recommend.
If you thought the diamond pretty in person, I believe you. It is just there are better ones out there.

Nobody said EGL diamonds are worthless. EGL reports are worthless.
The fact that some people re-submit their stones to GIA to double check approves that EGL reports are worthless and not trustworthy.

This 1.71 I VS1 has a critical flaw, very thin girdle, which is a chipping hazard. This stone has NO CHANCE for GIA EX or AGS IDEAL just because of this flaw alone. Yet, EGL still awards "IDEAL" cut grade. What a joke.
This may be one of the reasons why the cutter sent this stone to EGL, instead of GIA. And your jewelery did not educate you about very thin girdle
Here is another example that EGL is not trustworthy.

Vendors select grading labs very strategically to market their products. EGL is often used to hide product's flaws. This experience and report show what sort of vendors use EGL, what sort of stones go to EGL and what sort of vendors EGL caters to, IN GENERAL

 

[Karl_K]

This is very common scam both online and in store.
Yes I said scam and I will stand by that 100%
I have also seen it pulled with igi reports(US lab valuation reports the worst igi reports) as well as other second and third rate labs.

 

[EvaEvans]

branxs2, I think that your EGL stone looks nice, although not Ideal cut per GIA requirements. If your eyes like this particular diamond, I don't see a problem! If you are planing re-selling/trade up one day, better buy GIA diamond... If you are buying for yourself, judge with your mind AND you eye and heart!
flyingpig, I sent my diamond to GIA, not because I don't trust the EGL certificate, but because if one day I decide to re-sell this diamond, GIA sells better. I prefer to have the GIA certificate prior to set my diamond in a setting. I will be also glad to post the EGL vs GIA comparison when it's ready
"Very thin" girdle is an issue, that's right, but bezel setting could prevent chipping.

 

[gm89uk]

branxs2, I think that your EGL stone looks nice, although not Ideal cut per GIA requirements. If your eyes like this particular diamond, I don't see a problem! If you are planing re-selling/trade up one day, better buy GIA diamond... If you are buying for yourself, judge with your mind AND you eye and heart!
flyingpig, I sent my diamond to GIA, not because I don't trust the EGL certificate, but because if one day I decide to re-sell this diamond, GIA sells better. I prefer to have the GIA certificate prior to set my diamond in a setting. I will be also glad to post the EGL vs GIA comparison when it's ready
"Very thin" girdle is an issue, that's right, but bezel setting could prevent chipping.

I look forward to your comparison. I see no point in the OP settling for a stone that isn't well priced, isn't ideally cut and is prone to chipping with that certificate. Whether yours comes back accurately or not from EGL isn't that relevant because you are just one report. It has otherwise consistently, but not predictably undergraded stones. I think the advice to proceed with this purchase is bad advice and the OP there are too many negative connotations about this purchase. Not only this but there are trust issues with the vendor for very valid reasons. The only positive thing about the whole ordeal is the diamond was nice looking to the OPs eyes. The OP may not be experienced at looking at diamonds (forgive me if you are) and fully assessed the diamond in all lighting conditions, or ever seen better cut diamonds. I'm not saying it's not a pretty diamond, I'm sure it is, it's not a bad combination and I've seen beautiful stones with these spec but there's no way I would lay down my money on:

1) a vendor playing these tactics
2) an uncertain colour and clarity
3) a diamond that is prone to chipping
4) a poorly priced diamond

After all that it's not even a good deal! This is a common combination of angles and IMO there are better ones, you will not struggle to find a diamond of equal or better beauty but is more fairly priced and doesn't restrict you to a bezel setting. There are too many better options available to you buying a MRB to suggest that this is a good idea, with so many red flags. Run!

PS I've been subject to the same scam, it was my first time looking at diamonds and laid next to a GIA H, SI2, the EGL E,SI1 was the same colour and more heavily included.

 

[rubybeth]

You can do much better than an EGL stone. Vendors who are reputable don't play those games.

 

[miraj]

it seems to pass the eye test for me

How rigorously did you "eye test" it? Did you just see it in the jewelry store's light, or did you put it into various lighting settings (e.g. fully shaded; only natural light)? Did you compare them side-by-side in those various settings? Jewelry store lighting is designed to make even the worst diamonds sparkle, but take them into normal situations and they can be lifeless.

 

[ChristineRose]

EGL stones are always overpriced. There's something called the "EGL discount"--which used to about 2.5 grades and is probably a lot more now. EGL has a clever scheme where the vendor can send a stone to EGL and see the grade before they pay for the grading. If they don't like the grade, they pay only a nominal fee.

Hence every EGL stone that you ever see will be worse than the current EGL discount, and as people catch on the EGL discount is constantly getting bigger, which forces EGL to overgrade more and more. Everyone thinks they are getting a bargain because they compare the price of the stone to stones two grades less but the grading is always below whatever the discount is.

The trade has largely abandoned EGL after a slew of lawsuits. The very fact that a jeweler carries EGL stones is a negative.

 

[branxs2]

Thank you so much everyone for your wonderful feedback, it's truly appreciated and has helped me make my decision before today. As many of you mentioned the vendor tactics is what ultimately turns me off. I've done some pricing research and have found very similar diamonds for cheaper, so i'm obviously not even getting a great deal. Im going in today with the notion of cancelling the diamond but keeping the setting and asking them to set another diamond for me that i purchase online. Before I come to this pre-made decision i'm going to ask to see comparable GIA diamonds color J/VVS2 because i believe that is comparable to the diamond that i can afford/is comparable in size/color but can get a bit better clarify quality!

With that being said, what are some strategies you guys tend to use for purchasing online? I found the HCA test to be super helpful the last few days when pictures can't always provide the best assessment.

Thank you all again guys, my future wife will hear of this story haha

 

[BlingDreams]

\Im going in today with the notion of cancelling the diamond but keeping the setting and asking them to set another diamond for me that i purchase online. Before I come to this pre-made decision i'm going to ask to see comparable GIA diamonds color J/VVS2 because i believe that is comparable to the diamond that i can afford/is comparable in size/color but can get a bit better clarify quality!

Why would you even do that much? Your gut is telling you that this store is shady; why give them ANY of your business? Trust me - you will always question if you truly got a fair deal, and with a purchase like this you don't want that floating around in your mind. Find another vendor of the setting and buy it from them, and use the awesome recommended vendors on PriceScope to select the best diamond you can afford (several have already been mentioned... Good Old Gold, IDJ, Whiteflash, James Allen, etc.). If you tell people on here WHAT you want (size, color, clarity) they will find you the best cut possible.

 

[arkieb1]

1. 1.71 ct I VS1 EGL $10,500 including the ring
2. 1.90 ct H/SI2 EGL $13,000 (diamond only)
3. 1.50 ct G/SI2 GIA $10,500 (diamond only)
4. 1.50 ct I/SI1 GIA $10,000 (diamond only)

What you are really getting if it is EGL USA is a diamond that is around two grades out in colour and two grades out in clarity so your 1.71 is probably a J/K SI1 stone at a guess now compare the price to an GIA stone for an apples to apples comparison. if the 1.90 is EGL USA H/Si2 then it is probably around a J in colour and a I1 in clarity. If the stones are EGL Israel, EGL India or Asia don't even bother they can be up to 4, 5 even 6 + grades out in colour and two to four out in clarity. So you see they aren't really a "great deal" when you know what they REALLY are.

 

[flyingpig]

Why would you even do that much? Your gut is telling you that this store is shady; why give them ANY of your business? Trust me - you will always question if you truly got a fair deal, and with a purchase like this you don't want that floating around in your mind. Find another vendor of the setting and buy it from them, and use the awesome recommended vendors on PriceScope to select the best diamond you can afford (several have already been mentioned... Good Old Gold, IDJ, Whiteflash, James Allen, etc.). If you tell people on here WHAT you want (size, color, clarity) they will find you the best cut possible.

+1
Dont bother. Jewelers dont like working with diamonds that their customers buy else where.
When you cancel the diamond order, this jeweler loses 10k in potential revenue and couple thousands in profit. Do you think thia jeweler is enthusiatic about your ring at this point? He already demonstrated poor professionalism. Get your money back and start fresh. Post the setting your interested in, people here can help you.

Plus it is generally recommended to get a diamond and a setting from the same vendor

 

[branxs2]

+1
Dont bother. Jewelers dont like working with diamonds that their customers buy else where.
When you cancel the diamond order, this jeweler loses 10k in potential revenue and couple thousands in profit. Do you think thia jeweler is enthusiatic about your ring at this point? He already demonstrated poor professionalism. Get your money back and start fresh. Post the setting your interested in, people here can help you.

Plus it is generally recommended to get a diamond and a setting from the same vendor

Makes sense, I too would be pretty salty about the whole ordeal.
So at this point is it even worth it to drive back and cancel and check out other diamonds in person?

My budget is $10,500 with the setting & tax.
Current diamond: http://www.eglusa.com/verify-a-report-results/?st_num=915245002D
Setting: https://www.instagram.com/p/BFjxQBBJGmT/

I'm also open to looking at J colored GIA diamonds with VVS2 clarity, this one caught my eye:https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/R170-274938056?utm_source=rarecarat&utm_medium=cpc

Does anyone else know what kind of comparable GIA diamonds come to mind?

 

[BlingDreams]

Makes sense, I too would be pretty salty about the whole ordeal. So at this point is it even worth it to drive back and cancel and check out other diamonds in person?

My budget is $10,500 with the setting & tax.
Current diamond: http://www.eglusa.com/verify-a-report-results/?st_num=915245002D
Setting: https://www.instagram.com/p/BFjxQBBJGmT/

I'm also open to looking at J colored GIA diamonds with VVS2 clarity, this one caught my eye:https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/R170-274938056?utm_source=rarecarat&utm_medium=cpc

Does anyone else know what kind of comparable GIA diamonds come to mind?

No, it's not worth driving back. I'd call them and tell them you've decided not to get the diamond and that you want your deposit refunded (I presume you put it on a credit card, which should be easy enough for them to do); if they give you a hard time, just call your credit card company and let them deal with it.

That setting is pretty standard, so I'm sure you can find it easily elsewhere. A quick search easily turned up this one (I'm sure they could make it in yellow gold if asked) - https://www.whiteflash.com/engageme.../rounded-pave-diamond-engagement-ring-563.htm. To be safe, figure $3000 on the high end for the setting (depending on how many diamonds you want it to have) which leaves you with $7500+ for the diamond. If you buy it out of state you don't have to pay tax, which could give you some wiggle room. Focus on quality cut and not as much color/clarity. Search Brian Gavin, Good Old Gold, IDJ, James Allen, and Whiteflash and examine the idealscope/ASET images of the ones which interest you the most; those will give you the best idea of a diamond's performance and sparkle. Videos and hearts/arrows are also helpful.

Again, a quick search using only the parameters of price, "true hearts" cut quality, color F-J and clarity VVS2-SI1 gave me all of these great options: https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...&PriceTo=8000&ViewsOptions=Images&Shape=round

It takes leg work but you absolutely can find a great option with your budget.

 

[Austina]

These are similar setting from James Allen

https://www.jamesallen.com/engageme...und-shaped-diamond-engagement-ring-item-41613

https://www.jamesallen.com/engageme...und-shaped-diamond-engagement-ring-item-41614

 

[branxs2]

The original setting is here: https://www.laurenbjewelry.com/1-75-ct-round-diamond-18k-white-gold-engagement-ring.html
I was quoted $1800 for it and they can ship it to me. I don't think I'd pay $3000 for a setting, I was actually hoping to get it under $1500 since the setting is actually quite common.

Would it make sense to have it delivered to me and then find a jeweler that can set the diamond? Seems like a lot of work from 3 separate places, has anyone gone this route personally?

Thanks again for all the posts and sharing similar settings, this forum is awesome!

 

[EvaEvans]

It's funny that so many potentially good diamonds are dismissed because of the EGL paranoia...
So, more options for me then...
EGL-USA is the best EGL from the international EGL laboratories, so when I am talking about EGL, I'm refering the EGL-USA.
I have seen mismatch between GIA and AGSL too, does this mean, than one laboratory is better/worse than the other?! No, this only means that every laboratory has its own criteria, so knowing that GIA will possibly grade more conservative than EGL, I will just reduce one color level down, and one clarity level down. I am talking with facts, not fair tales. I have seen G color by EGL-Canada, graded H by GIA-USA.
I also want to comment, that many jewelers in my opinion are pushy, they just want to sell. I am working with my jeweler for 6 years, and she always try to sell me something, even if I go their for simple repair.
I have seen bad EGL evaluation, but also bad GIA and AGSL grading too! Because of my experience in diamonds, in fact I don't trust any lab certificate! I have enough knowledge to evaluate a diamond by myself. My best friend is my 10x jewelry loupe to evaluate the clarity. And the color is judged by my eye and comparison with my other certified diamonds. Diamond measurements are very accurate on the report, no matter EGL or GIA, so cut grade is easy to catch.
branxs2, if you don't feel safe with the EGL, stick to the GIA.
I would also advise you to look for other diamond vendors and options. When I am purchasing for myself, I do deep research before to spend thousands. And don't rush! There is always nice diamonds out there

 

[ChristineRose]

No, this only means that every laboratory has its own criteria, so knowing that GIA will possibly grade more conservative than EGL, I will just reduce one color level down, and one clarity level down.

And you will overpay every time.

Do you think jewelers don't know that people do this? They know very well. If an EGL stone comes back only one color and one clarity level down, then they will reject the certificate, pay the fee, and send the stone to GIA...or another EGL.

Given the current reputation of EGL, one color and one clarity is way too generous. You are doing EXACTLY what the jeweler wants you to do.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Shop online so that you know you are getting a good deal. We can suggest reputable vendors with photos.

These are measurements to help you stay in ideal cut territory with a GIA excellent cut stone.

table: 54-58

depth: 60-62.3

crown angle: 34-35.0 (up to 35.5 crown angle can sometimes work with a 40.6 pav angle)

pavilion angle: 40.6-40.9 (sometimes 41.0 if the crown angle is close to 34)