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Diamond Feather Inclusions: A Durability Risk?

coati

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Thanks Andrey!

Many thanks to David Atlas, Jeff Averbook, Richard Sherwood, Arthur Anton Skuratowicz, Julie Nash, Nancy Stacy, and Yoram F. for your great contributions. We appreciate it!

And thanks Garry and OctoNus.com for the fantastic images.
 

Karl_K

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bravo!!
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ChunkyCushionLover

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Date: 4/29/2010 1:22:53 PM
Author: coatimundi
Thanks Andrey!

Many thanks to David Atlas, Jeff Averbook, Richard Sherwood, Arthur Anton Skuratowicz, Julie Nash, Nancy Stacy, and Yoram F. for your great contributions. We appreciate it!

And thanks Garry and OctoNus.com for the fantastic images.
Great article, I especially liked the survey of opinions from various members of the diamond trade.
 

Lorelei

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Coaties,

Its a superb and very useful article, I know I will use it a lot when advising, thank you!!!
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You did a fantastic job!!!
 

yssie

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A fantastic article, thank you!!



The closeup photos and variety of opinions are especially helpful
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Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Well done Coati

Do others think that this will be useful to refer newbies to, perhaps with a quote from the conclusion, or your favorite appraiser etc? Is there any disagreement about that final statement?

Generally, feathers do not pose a durability risk during normal wear, but each stone must be judged individually. Diamonds that contain multiple, precariously placed feathers may cause a risk, as mentioned in the expert responses above, but if a diamond has survived mining and faceting, then it is unlikely that a feather will worsen with wear.
 

Serg

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Date: 4/29/2010 9:35:24 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Well done Coati


Do others think that this will be useful to refer newbies to, perhaps with a quote from the conclusion, or your favorite appraiser etc? Is there any disagreement about that final statement?


Generally, feathers do not pose a durability risk during normal wear, but each stone must be judged individually. Diamonds that contain multiple, precariously placed feathers may cause a risk, as mentioned in the expert responses above, but if a diamond has survived mining and faceting, then it is unlikely that a feather will worsen with wear.

Garry,

re:but if a diamond has survived .... faceting, then it is unlikely that a feather will worsen with wear.

Cool polishing process could change it. Polishing process become more and more safe for diamonds and can not be more rejection tools for diamonds with low durability

EOS

" Stones with high stress, even in the bruting area, can be processed without any damage. "



GIP
 

Paul-Antwerp

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As for the article, Coati, can you make a small correction, though not important for the actual message of the article.

You mentioned that bearding is caused by the faceting process. Actually, it is caused by incorrect manipulations in the bruting-process.

What I further miss, is the mention that certain feathers are a result of stress released during the manufacturing-process (and I can imagine that this can also occur during the mining, and even under external geophysical pressure over a period of millions of years).

All in all, like many mentioned in the article, I think that feathers and durability are a non-issue, especially if I think compare to the damage I have seen resulting from simply wearing a diamond for 50 years. That really surprises me badly, and I wonder how the jeweler-setter-benchman affects such damage.

Other than these small remarks, good job.

Live long,
 

coati

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Date: 4/30/2010 9:43:57 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
As for the article, Coati, can you make a small correction, though not important for the actual message of the article.


You mentioned that bearding is caused by the faceting process. Actually, it is caused by incorrect manipulations in the bruting-process.


What I further miss, is the mention that certain feathers are a result of stress released during the manufacturing-process (and I can imagine that this can also occur during the mining, and even under external geophysical pressure over a period of millions of years).


All in all, like many mentioned in the article, I think that feathers and durability are a non-issue, especially if I think compare to the damage I have seen resulting from simply wearing a diamond for 50 years. That really surprises me badly, and I wonder how the jeweler-setter-benchman affects such damage.


Other than these small remarks, good job.


Live long,

Thanks for the comments Paul

re bearding-You are correct. Bearding results from “incorrect manipulations” during the bruting phase. (will correct this in the article-thanks) Perhaps an in-depth article on the cutting process is in order. (Video would be great)

re stress on diamonds from manufacturing, mining and geophysical pressure-this is addressed in the article. If a diamond can survive emplacement, mining, and manufacturing, it is unlikely that a feather will worsen with normal wear.
 

coati

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Thanks for the feedback!
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Date: 4/30/2010 5:39:32 AM
Author: Serg

Date: 4/29/2010 9:35:24 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Well done Coati


Do others think that this will be useful to refer newbies to, perhaps with a quote from the conclusion, or your favorite appraiser etc? Is there any disagreement about that final statement?


Generally, feathers do not pose a durability risk during normal wear, but each stone must be judged individually. Diamonds that contain multiple, precariously placed feathers may cause a risk, as mentioned in the expert responses above, but if a diamond has survived mining and faceting, then it is unlikely that a feather will worsen with wear.

Garry,

re:but if a diamond has survived .... faceting, then it is unlikely that a feather will worsen with wear.

Cool polishing process could change it. Polishing process become more and more safe for diamonds and can not be more rejection tools for diamonds with low durability

EOS

'' Stones with high stress, even in the bruting area, can be processed without any damage. ''



GIP
Sergey you mean that diamonds that might have broken during traditional manufacturing processes may survive todays modern techniques?
I think this is true for laser sawing and laser blocking, as well as grinding with a coolant.

Coati / Paul - “incorrect manipulations” could be better worded?
Perhaps:
Rounding (bruting) too aggressively or fast.
 

Serg

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Date: 5/1/2010 2:23:45 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Date: 4/30/2010 5:39:32 AM

Author: Serg


Date: 4/29/2010 9:35:24 PM

Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Well done Coati



Do others think that this will be useful to refer newbies to, perhaps with a quote from the conclusion, or your favorite appraiser etc? Is there any disagreement about that final statement?



Generally, feathers do not pose a durability risk during normal wear, but each stone must be judged individually. Diamonds that contain multiple, precariously placed feathers may cause a risk, as mentioned in the expert responses above, but if a diamond has survived mining and faceting, then it is unlikely that a feather will worsen with wear.


Garry,


re:but if a diamond has survived .... faceting, then it is unlikely that a feather will worsen with wear.


Cool polishing process could change it. Polishing process become more and more safe for diamonds and can not be more rejection tools for diamonds with low durability


EOS


'' Stones with high stress, even in the bruting area, can be processed without any damage. ''




GIP
Sergey you mean that diamonds that might have broken during traditional manufacturing processes may survive todays modern techniques?

I think this is true for laser sawing and laser blocking, as well as grinding with a coolant.


Coati / Paul - “incorrect manipulations” could be better worded?

Perhaps:

Rounding (bruting) too aggressively or fast.

Garry,

re:Sergey you mean that diamonds that might have broken during traditional manufacturing processes may survive todays modern techniques?
yes. Early cutters much more often avoid to cut diamonds with some type feathers what could be close to girdle or facets.(early they removed such feathers firstly during sawing and then polished diamond without its. )
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Date: 5/1/2010 3:02:22 AM
Author: Serg


Garry,

re:Sergey you mean that diamonds that might have broken during traditional manufacturing processes may survive todays modern techniques?
yes. Early cutters much more often avoid to cut diamonds with some type feathers what could be close to girdle or facets.(early they removed such feathers firstly during sawing and then polished diamond without its. )
Such diamonds were considered good for oil well drilling because they could break revealing new sharp corners and edges.

Do you think it means that today and in the future many more diamonds with feathers will break than what we experts have experianced in the past?
 

Serg

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Date: 5/1/2010 3:29:43 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Date: 5/1/2010 3:02:22 AM

Author: Serg



Garry,


re:Sergey you mean that diamonds that might have broken during traditional manufacturing processes may survive todays modern techniques?

yes. Early cutters much more often avoid to cut diamonds with some type feathers what could be close to girdle or facets.(early they removed such feathers firstly during sawing and then polished diamond without its. )
Such diamonds were considered good for oil well drilling because they could break revealing new sharp corners and edges.


Do you think it means that today and in the future many more diamonds with feathers will break than what we experts have experianced in the past?

Garry,

Yes,it could happened in near future when technology for cool polishing as GIP will widespread . even now EOS allows bruting for some diamonds what was not possible just 5 years ago. and you know 1 year old history of completely cool processing during blocking for highly stressed( leopard) very big Pink diamond. was it possible just 2 years ago?
Cool polishing could cancel current historical expertise what diamonds with cracks are safe because they passed through hard cutting process. Cutting process will not hard at all just after 2-5 years.
 

diagem

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Date: 5/1/2010 4:11:13 AM
Author: Serg

Date: 5/1/2010 3:29:43 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 5/1/2010 3:02:22 AM

Author: Serg



Garry,


re:Sergey you mean that diamonds that might have broken during traditional manufacturing processes may survive todays modern techniques?

yes. Early cutters much more often avoid to cut diamonds with some type feathers what could be close to girdle or facets.(early they removed such feathers firstly during sawing and then polished diamond without its. )

This is actually anti-thesis to Diamond cutter''s common practice. Cutters are known to tackle all issues within personal economic ability, I dont know many cutters that chose to sell their ''dangerous'' stones instead of taking the chance and reach end results.
Historically..., cutters used to cut (all types) outer-edge inclusions out..., now-a-days thanks to laser tech., cutters have the luxury to take any partition into consideration in the planning. But there are still much more Diamonds with feathers (& other inclusions) being cut vs. clean material.
In my case..., out of every ten Diamonds I submit for sawing, about three Diamonds are considered dangerous due to polarization, I rarely decide not to saw.
Such diamonds were considered good for oil well drilling because they could break revealing new sharp corners and edges.


Do you think it means that today and in the future many more diamonds with feathers will break than what we experts have experianced in the past?

Garry,

Yes,it could happened in near future when technology for cool polishing as GIP will widespread . even now EOS allows bruting for some diamonds what was not possible just 5 years ago. and you know 1 year old history of completely cool processing during blocking for highly stressed( leopard) very big Pink diamond. was it possible just 2 years ago?
Cool polishing could cancel current historical expertise what diamonds with cracks are safe because they passed through hard cutting process. Cutting process will not hard at all just after 2-5 years.
Sergey, cooling during cutting and polishing has been practiced for years...
Its true that the laser has become a safer world for Diamond processing
36.gif
. (Red-Green & now perhaps cool), but when push comes to shove, Diamond material still needs to be grind-ed for faceting.

So unless you have a surprise process up you sleeve
11.gif
, "not hard at all" should be changed to "safer" perhaps.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Date: 5/4/2010 5:54:38 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 5/1/2010 4:11:13 AM
Author: Serg

Garry,

Yes,it could happened in near future when technology for cool polishing as GIP will widespread . even now EOS allows bruting for some diamonds what was not possible just 5 years ago. and you know 1 year old history of completely cool processing during blocking for highly stressed( leopard) very big Pink diamond. was it possible just 2 years ago?
Cool polishing could cancel current historical expertise what diamonds with cracks are safe because they passed through hard cutting process. Cutting process will not hard at all just after 2-5 years.
Sergey, cooling during cutting and polishing has been practiced for years...
Its true that the laser has become a safer world for Diamond processing
36.gif
. (Red-Green & now perhaps cool), but when push comes to shove, Diamond material still needs to be grind-ed for faceting.

So unless you have a surprise process up you sleeve
11.gif
, ''not hard at all'' should be changed to ''safer'' perhaps.
Can you give examples of cooling during cutting please Yoram?
 

Serg

Ideal_Rock
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Joined
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Messages
2,571
Date: 5/4/2010 5:54:38 PM
Author: DiaGem
Date: 5/1/2010 4:11:13 AM

Author: Serg


Date: 5/1/2010 3:29:43 AM

Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)


Date: 5/1/2010 3:02:22 AM


Author: Serg




Garry,



re:Sergey you mean that diamonds that might have broken during traditional manufacturing processes may survive todays modern techniques?


yes. Early cutters much more often avoid to cut diamonds with some type feathers what could be close to girdle or facets.(early they removed such feathers firstly during sawing and then polished diamond without its. )



This is actually anti-thesis to Diamond cutter''s common practice. Cutters are known to tackle all issues within personal economic ability, I dont know many cutters that chose to sell their ''dangerous'' stones instead of taking the chance and reach end results.

Historically..., cutters used to cut (all types) outer-edge inclusions out..., now-a-days thanks to laser tech., cutters have the luxury to take any partition into consideration in the planning. But there are still much more Diamonds with feathers (& other inclusions) being cut vs. clean material.

In my case..., out of every ten Diamonds I submit for sawing, about three Diamonds are considered dangerous due to polarization, I rarely decide not to saw.
Such diamonds were considered good for oil well drilling because they could break revealing new sharp corners and edges.



Do you think it means that today and in the future many more diamonds with feathers will break than what we experts have experianced in the past?


Garry,


Yes,it could happened in near future when technology for cool polishing as GIP will widespread . even now EOS allows bruting for some diamonds what was not possible just 5 years ago. and you know 1 year old history of completely cool processing during blocking for highly stressed( leopard) very big Pink diamond. was it possible just 2 years ago?

Cool polishing could cancel current historical expertise what diamonds with cracks are safe because they passed through hard cutting process. Cutting process will not hard at all just after 2-5 years.
Sergey, cooling during cutting and polishing has been practiced for years...

Its true that the laser has become a safer world for Diamond processing
36.gif
. (Red-Green & now perhaps cool), but when push comes to shove, Diamond material still needs to be grind-ed for faceting.


So unless you have a surprise process up you sleeve
11.gif
, ''not hard at all'' should be changed to ''safer'' perhaps.
Yoram,

Cooling polishing and cool polishing are not same.
in Cooling polishing you firstly heating diamond in polishing contact place and then cooling diamond from other part surface . So you have high temperature gradient in any case( you just reduce highest temperature) . Cooling polishing had been used mainly for very big diamonds( +100cts). Cool polishing available for any sizes

In cool polishing you do not heat diamond in polishing contact.
same for laser sawing . You can use cooling during red or green laser sawing, but cool laser sawing possible only for deep UV laser
 

diagem

Ideal_Rock
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Messages
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Date: 5/5/2010 1:30:46 AM
Author: Serg


Date: 5/4/2010 5:54:38 PM
Author: DiaGem


Date: 5/1/2010 4:11:13 AM

Author: Serg




Date: 5/1/2010 3:29:43 AM

Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)




Date: 5/1/2010 3:02:22 AM


Author: Serg




Garry,



re:Sergey you mean that diamonds that might have broken during traditional manufacturing processes may survive todays modern techniques?


yes. Early cutters much more often avoid to cut diamonds with some type feathers what could be close to girdle or facets.(early they removed such feathers firstly during sawing and then polished diamond without its. )



This is actually anti-thesis to Diamond cutter's common practice. Cutters are known to tackle all issues within personal economic ability, I dont know many cutters that chose to sell their 'dangerous' stones instead of taking the chance and reach end results.

Historically..., cutters used to cut (all types) outer-edge inclusions out..., now-a-days thanks to laser tech., cutters have the luxury to take any partition into consideration in the planning. But there are still much more Diamonds with feathers (& other inclusions) being cut vs. clean material.

In my case..., out of every ten Diamonds I submit for sawing, about three Diamonds are considered dangerous due to polarization, I rarely decide not to saw.
Such diamonds were considered good for oil well drilling because they could break revealing new sharp corners and edges.



Do you think it means that today and in the future many more diamonds with feathers will break than what we experts have experianced in the past?


Garry,


Yes,it could happened in near future when technology for cool polishing as GIP will widespread . even now EOS allows bruting for some diamonds what was not possible just 5 years ago. and you know 1 year old history of completely cool processing during blocking for highly stressed( leopard) very big Pink diamond. was it possible just 2 years ago?

Cool polishing could cancel current historical expertise what diamonds with cracks are safe because they passed through hard cutting process. Cutting process will not hard at all just after 2-5 years.
Sergey, cooling during cutting and polishing has been practiced for years...

Its true that the laser has become a safer world for Diamond processing
36.gif
. (Red-Green & now perhaps cool), but when push comes to shove, Diamond material still needs to be grind-ed for faceting.


So unless you have a surprise process up you sleeve
11.gif
, 'not hard at all' should be changed to 'safer' perhaps.
Yoram,

Cooling polishing and cool polishing are not same.
in Cooling polishing you firstly heating diamond in polishing contact place and then cooling diamond from other part surface . So you have high temperature gradient in any case( you just reduce highest temperature) . Cooling polishing had been used mainly for very big diamonds( +100cts). Cool polishing available for any sizes

In cool polishing you do not heat diamond in polishing contact.

Like I said..., if the Diamond needs to be grind-ed, I still foresee danger. I cant discuss issues I have no knowledge of.
same for laser sawing . You can use cooling during red or green laser sawing, but cool laser sawing possible only for deep UV laser

I know its being worked on..., just like many other technological advances.
I have just been shown a prototype of a digital measuring dop..., but still dont see how it can fully resolve play range?
 

Serg

Ideal_Rock
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Joined
Mar 21, 2002
Messages
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Date: 5/5/2010 6:09:52 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 5/5/2010 1:30:46 AM
Author: Serg



Date: 5/4/2010 5:54:38 PM
Author: DiaGem



Date: 5/1/2010 4:11:13 AM

Author: Serg





Date: 5/1/2010 3:29:43 AM

Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)





Date: 5/1/2010 3:02:22 AM


Author: Serg




Garry,



re:Sergey you mean that diamonds that might have broken during traditional manufacturing processes may survive todays modern techniques?


yes. Early cutters much more often avoid to cut diamonds with some type feathers what could be close to girdle or facets.(early they removed such feathers firstly during sawing and then polished diamond without its. )



This is actually anti-thesis to Diamond cutter''s common practice. Cutters are known to tackle all issues within personal economic ability, I dont know many cutters that chose to sell their ''dangerous'' stones instead of taking the chance and reach end results.

Yoram, I did not say what cutters sell ''dengerous'' rough stones instead to cut it.
I said: Early cutters more often selected allocation plans which had not polished diamond with feathers in girdle part.
they rejected such solution and selected more safe but more cheap solutions for processing

Historically..., cutters used to cut (all types) outer-edge inclusions out..., now-a-days thanks to laser tech., cutters have the luxury to take any partition into consideration in the planning. But there are still much more Diamonds with feathers (& other inclusions) being cut vs. clean material.

In my case..., out of every ten Diamonds I submit for sawing, about three Diamonds are considered dangerous due to polarization, I rarely decide not to saw.
Such diamonds were considered good for oil well drilling because they could break revealing new sharp corners and edges.



Do you think it means that today and in the future many more diamonds with feathers will break than what we experts have experianced in the past?


Garry,


Yes,it could happened in near future when technology for cool polishing as GIP will widespread . even now EOS allows bruting for some diamonds what was not possible just 5 years ago. and you know 1 year old history of completely cool processing during blocking for highly stressed( leopard) very big Pink diamond. was it possible just 2 years ago?

Cool polishing could cancel current historical expertise what diamonds with cracks are safe because they passed through hard cutting process. Cutting process will not hard at all just after 2-5 years.
Sergey, cooling during cutting and polishing has been practiced for years...

Its true that the laser has become a safer world for Diamond processing
36.gif
. (Red-Green & now perhaps cool), but when push comes to shove, Diamond material still needs to be grind-ed for faceting.


So unless you have a surprise process up you sleeve
11.gif
, ''not hard at all'' should be changed to ''safer'' perhaps.
Yoram,

Cooling polishing and cool polishing are not same.
in Cooling polishing you firstly heating diamond in polishing contact place and then cooling diamond from other part surface . So you have high temperature gradient in any case( you just reduce highest temperature) . Cooling polishing had been used mainly for very big diamonds( +100cts). Cool polishing available for any sizes

In cool polishing you do not heat diamond in polishing contact.

Like I said..., if the Diamond needs to be grind-ed, I still foresee danger. I cant discuss issues I have no knowledge of.
same for laser sawing . You can use cooling during red or green laser sawing, but cool laser sawing possible only for deep UV laser

I know its being worked on..., just like many other technological advances.
I have just been shown a prototype of a digital measuring dop..., but still dont see how it can fully resolve play range?

Could you give more details about digital dop or any links?
 

diagem

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Oct 21, 2004
Messages
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Date: 5/6/2010 2:02:20 AM
Author: Serg

Date: 5/5/2010 6:09:52 PM
Author: DiaGem


Date: 5/5/2010 1:30:46 AM
Author: Serg




I know its being worked on..., just like many other technological advances.
I have just been shown a prototype of a digital measuring dop..., but still dont see how it can fully resolve play range?

Could you give more details about digital dop or any links?
I physically saw one prototype (not fully completed as of yet).
Sorry no links and no final details yet.
 

adoringme2

Rough_Rock
Joined
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Messages
6
Good article.

Based on the article. IS this a terrible diamond?
http://www.agslab.com/pdf_sync_reports/1040406920051-PDQDFK.PDF
I can see that the feather are around the edge, so it might cause cracking while mounting? Less durable?

Any comments? Thanx.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Date: 5/10/2010 2:50:30 PM
Author: adoringme2
Good article.

Based on the article. IS this a terrible diamond?
http://www.agslab.com/pdf_sync_reports/1040406920051-PDQDFK.PDF
I can see that the feather are around the edge, so it might cause cracking while mounting? Less durable?

Any comments? Thanx.
Who could tell from the report?
You are asking too much from too little info
 

adoringme2

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Joined
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Messages
6

Is it possible to tell from a 40* image and also idealscope images? If so, I will request these information.


Another question I have is whether grading for clarity includes the consideration of structural integrity.


As far as this diamond, a customer representative told me the feather is marked with red not green, so it is not on the surface. It will not crack. Is it true? She also commented that the crown angle for this diamond is not ideal so it only qualifies for the whiteflash premium. But the AGS grade and HCA score seems perfect for me. Sorry I am bringing the topic away a little bit...
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Messages
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40x is too magnified.
You did not read the entire article? I think you are obsessing in exactly the way the article was written to stop you worrying.

GIA school teaches feathers are green, GIA lab only calls them feathers if they reach the surface - I believe AGS follows the same practice.
 

adoringme2

Rough_Rock
Joined
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Messages
6
I agree that it needs more information to judge. I read the article and the comments. As in the article and some responses"....if it does not reach the girdle edge, or if....... then it should not be a durability issue." The way the inclusions are plotted looks like they are on the gridle edge, and "straight feather than a curvy feather". May be deceiving? I am not sure.
face22.gif
 

coati

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Date: 5/10/2010 10:07:25 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
40x is too magnified.

You did not read the entire article? I think you are obsessing in exactly the way the article was written to stop you worrying.


GIA school teaches feathers are green, GIA lab only calls them feathers if they reach the surface - I believe AGS follows the same practice.

GIA plots feathers in red.
 

coati

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Messages
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Date: 5/10/2010 10:28:39 PM
Author: adoringme2
I agree that it needs more information to judge. I read the article and the comments. As in the article and some responses'....if it does not reach the girdle edge, or if....... then it should not be a durability issue.' The way the inclusions are plotted looks like they are on the gridle edge, and 'straight feather than a curvy feather'. May be deceiving? I am not sure.
face22.gif

The person physically examining the stone can give you the best info about specific inclusions-sorry, we need more than the plot. If you have concerns about this stone, then you can always have an independent appraiser look at it.

Welcome to Pricescope
1.gif
 

haagen_dazs

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Messages
781
does this feather article apply to coloured gemstones too?
 
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