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Defund police?

JrJ

Shiny_Rock
Joined
May 30, 2018
Messages
273
And I didn’t at all say for the reds to oversee the entire department, only if something drastic started, like militias.
I am so sick of repeating myself. I have said all of this already.
I am done sounding like a broken record.
 

JrJ

Shiny_Rock
Joined
May 30, 2018
Messages
273
But now there are thousands of little neighborhood 'police like but not police' units in every state that need training and oversight. Good heavens.....you just know Karen the HOA president would want to run the neighborhood patrol....with the power to arrest if your bushes are grown over by 2 inches! LOL Or more seriously...who imposes arrest warrants, pulls over drunk drivers, removes kids from abusive situations, responds to a school shooting....the neighborhood patrol? And the feds are going to oversee all of this? I just don't see that....
We haven't even talked about how arrests, jail and court work without functioning police departments.
One last thing, I am truly sick of repeating myself so probably never coming back to this thread.
Maybe I should declare I am not against police, which is why I think it should be privatized. What I am against is the government officials using it against us. so long as they have OUR money to use, and have control of, we don’t have as much power as we are led to believe. I feel like you are taking this personal in some way and ignoring anything and everything I say and coming up some some very simple not thought out ideas here.
 

1ofakind

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Aug 22, 2012
Messages
1,123
@JrJ I apologize if in anyway you felt I was taking anything personally...I was not. My reply was not meant as such either.

We simply disagree on how privatized or neighborhood ‘police‘ would work. I don’t believe it would except in a very limited function. Privatized security has no more authority than any individual citizens. They have no authority on public property and even on private property for which they are hired there is very little they can do....they have to call the real police just like the rest of us.
 

Musia

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Mar 28, 2020
Messages
832
The area surrounding Amazon was one of the hardest hit in the riots and looting.

One of the buildings Microsoft is in (Bellevue) was also hit hard in the vandalism and looting.
Thank you so much, it is so sad. I am in disbelieve :shock:
 

autumngems

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 24, 2003
Messages
1,633
I do no know what the answer is but I don't believe defunding the police is it. I know there are bad apples out there and they do need more training.
 

Musia

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Mar 28, 2020
Messages
832
@JrJ This is so bad and totally wrong...They should sue city and state and then move to some red state (IMHO)


The Political Climate in St. Louis, MO is Strongly liberal.

St. Louis city County, MO is Strongly liberal. In St. Louis city County, MO 78.7% of the people voted Democrat
in the last presidential election, 15.7% voted Republican, and the remaining 5.6% voted Independent.

St. Louis city county voted Democratic in the previous five Presidential elections.
In the last Presidential election, St. Louis city county remained overwhelmingly Democratic, 78.7% to 15.7%
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
28,865
The only elephant in this room is ... Did owning an AR-15 in St. Louis, MO violate the law?
 

Musia

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Mar 28, 2020
Messages
832
The only elephant in this room is ... Did owning an AR-15 in St. Louis, MO violate the law?
No and you can hunt deer with it. Most likely not point it at people but I think it worked for scaring the mob off their house well.

Looking for the word.
 

Bayek

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 11, 2013
Messages
7,257
JrJ - curious why do you think we should privatize our police? It hasn't been a really good experience for prison guarding.

One last thing, I am truly sick of repeating myself so probably never coming back to this thread.
Maybe I should declare I am not against police, which is why I think it should be privatized. What I am against is the government officials using it against us. so long as they have OUR money to use, and have control of, we don’t have as much power as we are led to believe. I feel like you are taking this personal in some way and ignoring anything and everything I say and coming up some some very simple not thought out ideas here.
 

JrJ

Shiny_Rock
Joined
May 30, 2018
Messages
273
JrJ - curious why do you think we should privatize our police? It hasn't been a really good experience for prison guarding.
I feel like we have so many unnecessary laws that "require" us to have more police and prison guards that we end up hiring low quality/abusive police and prison guards, out of "necessity". I feel like if we privatized we can get rid of those that make it through and be pickier about who we hire and fire. We can also be pickier about what laws are passed. I feel like we, as private paying citizens should have more control over what laws are passed, WE should vote on them. I don't believe most people want to oppress their neighbor with victimless laws so those laws would never exist, or rarely (like in the case of prostitution or gambling), I feel that when the time came and they had to choose they would not do it. I believe most victimless laws are to protect our own government and their lobbyists.
The private prison system is also not fully private. They receive government funds to run, this is an unfortunate fact, and then it gets abused. Private prisons also lobby, I can only imagine what laws have been affected by that. When I have time I will probably look further into the trail of exactly what laws, I am sure it isn't pretty.
The Eric Garner death was the one that made me flip like a switch overnight. I went back and forth with it for years and couldn't decide how I felt about it but can not be convinced any other way, now.
The police were not the only people who killed him, the law in place and the persons responsible for the law are, too.
 

Bayek

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 11, 2013
Messages
7,257
I am not a person who cannot see the value in any proposition. I agree that many of the cops/first responders are low quality/abusive, I'm not sure I can go the whole enchilada you are thinking, BUT it is something to think about. just a few fears: rogue private corporations/companies that have nefarious desires (like overthrow the USA system), no accountability to the public who will be paying for them (private corporation) the same problem with hiring low caliber employees because we have seen nothing but money grabs in the USA, pretty soon these companies will be sponsoring 'foreign' people who work for less pay, the way I see it, for profit leads to corruption and public employees lead to low caliber/low paid low end workers (what we have now).. So as I said, I'm not negative on it, as we don't seem to be working now that is for sure.. I'm not a libertarian, free markets mean free money for the rich, so far it's not worked at all well for the lower end of our country, but again I'd be willing to try it and see how it goes because we need change.

Great convo. thanks.

ETA: are you thinking of discarding the constitution? like I said, I'm open to change :) it would be next to impossible at this time I think but millenials and younger might be open to changing it or as I wish, rewriting it for this world not a world 260 year ago.


I feel like we have so many unnecessary laws that "require" us to have more police and prison guards that we end up hiring low quality/abusive police and prison guards, out of "necessity". I feel like if we privatized we can get rid of those that make it through and be pickier about who we hire and fire. We can also be pickier about what laws are passed. I feel like we, as private paying citizens should have more control over what laws are passed, WE should vote on them. I don't believe most people want to oppress their neighbor with victimless laws so those laws would never exist, or rarely (like in the case of prostitution or gambling), I feel that when the time came and they had to choose they would not do it. I believe most victimless laws are to protect our own government and their lobbyists.
The private prison system is also not fully private. They receive government funds to run, this is an unfortunate fact, and then it gets abused. Private prisons also lobby, I can only imagine what laws have been affected by that. When I have time I will probably look further into the trail of exactly what laws, I am sure it isn't pretty.
The Eric Garner death was the one that made me flip like a switch overnight. I went back and forth with it for years and couldn't decide how I felt about it but can not be convinced any other way, now.
The police were not the only people who killed him, the law in place and the persons responsible for the law are, too.
 
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JrJ

Shiny_Rock
Joined
May 30, 2018
Messages
273
I am not a person who cannot see the value in any proposition. I agree that many of the cops/first responders are low quality/abusive, I'm not sure I can go the whole enchilada you are thinking, BUT it is something to think about. just a few fears: rogue private corporations/companies that have nefarious desires (like overthrow the USA system), no accountability to the public who will be paying for them (private corporation) the same problem with hiring low caliber employees because we have seen nothing but money grabs in the USA, pretty soon these companies will be sponsoring 'foreign' people who work for less pay, the way I see it, for profit leads to corruption and public employees lead to low caliber/low paid low end workers (what we have now).. So as I said, I'm not negative on it, as we don't seem to be working now that is for sure.. I'm not a libertarian, free markets mean free money for the rich, so far it's not worked at all well for the lower end of our country, but again I'd be willing to try it and see how it goes because we need change.

Great convo. thanks.

ETA: are you thinking of discarding the constitution? like I said, I'm open to change :) it would be next to impossible at this time I think but millenials and younger might be open to changing it or as I wish, rewriting it for this world not a world 260 year ago.
Honestly, our government has gone pretty rouge and we have very little say in it. It also uses our money to do so and we can’t stop paying them. I feel like if it’s private we can cut the money if they start to go rogue (or at least have a greater chance to cut it).
Also, I feel that free markets aren’t quite as bad as you think. I used to feel the same way but changed after finding out how much money goes to big Corp, and it really isn’t just republicans that do this, it’s both sides. Have you seen how the farm subsidies are actually distributed? It mostly goes to corps and not small farmers. The sugar industry is heavily protected with our tax money (I think it was billions a year). There are articles explaining the details but I donmt have them on hand but the numbers are shocking and helped me realize that the government is much more responsible for protecting the wealthy than the free market is and possibly ever was, even if the free market isn’t perfect. Furthermore, I think that we don’t need government to prevent a free market as much as we used to. We have watchdog groups and social media to get the word out much easier and quicker than we did in the past. Without such routes people could have been abused much easier by corporations, I can’t imagine it happening as often nor for as long in this day and age.

I have 3 extra children over for the next week and a half and a dog starting radiation treatment tomorrow so I am quite busy and my brain is mush. I hope I am making sense!

I go back and forth on the constitution. I personally like it and feel we have strayed from it too much so it feels as though it doesn’t work. I also feel like it could be dated. I go back and forth like I did about police.
I guess it really is so difficult to say what will work and won’t until we try in regards to police and other policies.

Thank you for remaining civil! I never know what to expect when I state an opinion in here, especially with mine being in the very small minority.

Editing to add that I also feel that we should redirect some money to mental health care (like the Defund the Police prefer). There have been many people confronted by and killed by police for simply acting erratic which is so normal for the mentally ill, and so freaking sad.
 
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Musia

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Mar 28, 2020
Messages
832
Shame on me, I didn't know that Missouri is a red state. St Louis is a liberal city however. And the couple had a right to protect themselves:
Justified Use of Force

Physical force:
  • May be used when individuals reasonably believe that the physical force used is necessary for the defense of themselves (or others) from an imminent attack of unlawful force from another person.
  • May be used when individuals believe that the force is reasonably necessary to prevent another person from stealing, causing property damage, or tampering.
Deadly force:
  • May be used when a person reasonably believes that the level of force is necessary for self-defense or defense of others (including unborn children) in response to an imminent threat.
Here is a very interesting article https://www.foxnews.com/us/missouri...have-rifle-seized-during-police-search-report

@JrJ On Monday, the McCloskeys appeared on Fox News’ “Hannity” and disclosed that protesters had returned to their neighborhood July 3 – but the couple was alerted in advance and hired a private security company to protect their residence.
 

Bayek

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 11, 2013
Messages
7,257
Hell yes to the red letters below.. it's damn scary.

You make sense :) I will tell you, I would much rather pick the brain of a person who reads and forms opinions than what is referred to has "sheeple' not picking anyone here as such but a formed, well thought out opinion based on your actually caring about the community is awesome.

I'm for change, it ain't working and hasn't for years. You make great points :)

I think people should TRY to understand a different view than their own.

Thanks again for the conversation, it made me think (not that I'm special btw :) ) but any new point of reference and ideas helps me..

Best of luck with all that is on your plate girl that is a handful..

I will say - I go back and forth on the constitution too.. then I think HELL this is a blip in time.. :)

take care..


Honestly, our government has gone pretty rouge and we have very little say in it. It also uses our money to do so and we can’t stop paying them. I feel like if it’s private we can cut the money if they start to go rogue (or at least have a greater chance to cut it).
Also, I feel that free markets aren’t quite as bad as you think. I used to feel the same way but changed after finding out how much money goes to big Corp, and it really isn’t just republicans that do this, it’s both sides. Have you seen how the farm subsidies are actually distributed? It mostly goes to corps and not small farmers. The sugar industry is heavily protected with our tax money (I think it was billions a year). There are articles explaining the details but I donmt have them on hand but the numbers are shocking and helped me realize that the government is much more responsible for protecting the wealthy than the free market is and possibly ever was, even if the free market isn’t perfect. Furthermore, I think that we don’t need government to prevent a free market as much as we used to. We have watchdog groups and social media to get the word out much easier and quicker than we did in the past. Without such routes people could have been abused much easier by corporations, I can’t imagine it happening as often nor for as long in this day and age.

I have 3 extra children over for the next week and a half and a dog starting radiation treatment tomorrow so I am quite busy and my brain is mush. I hope I am making sense!

I go back and forth on the constitution. I personally like it and feel we have strayed from it too much so it feels as though it doesn’t work. I also feel like it could be dated. I go back and forth like I did about police.
I guess it really is so difficult to say what will work and won’t until we try in regards to police and other policies.

Thank you for remaining civil! I never know what to expect when I state an opinion in here, especially with mine being in the very small minority.

Editing to add that I also feel that we should redirect some money to mental health care (like the Defund the Police prefer). There have been many people confronted by and killed by police for simply acting erratic which is so normal for the mentally ill, and so freaking sad.
 

Musia

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Mar 28, 2020
Messages
832
Please forgive me for posting a picture of a dirty car window. It is our doggie's car as well as doggie's window, he licks it when he is nervous (almost always). Today my husband wanted to visit one of the gun shops nearby in order to check what is available for purchasing. We found a line of fellow Californians waiting for their turn (only one customer was allowed in a shop). There was a white lady in her 70th who has exited the shop and left a parking lot in her car before I decided to take a pictures. There was 1 big black young man, 1 Asian girl, 1 older Asian man, my husband and 3 more white men. All patiently waiting. We left after waiting for 15 min, didn't have a time to stay in line (didn't even expect there would be a line). Obviously "peaceful protests" and "defund police" made some people wanting to buy guns even in our liberal state. 0718201426a (3).jpg
 

MollyMalone

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 2, 2013
Messages
3,161
Shame on me, I didn't know that Missouri is a red state. St Louis is a liberal city however. And the couple had a right to protect themselves:
Justified Use of ForcePhysical force:
  • May be used when individuals reasonably believe that the physical force used is necessary for the defense of themselves (or others) from an imminent attack of unlawful force from another person.
  • May be used when individuals believe that the force is reasonably necessary to prevent another person from stealing, causing property damage, or tampering.
Deadly force:
  • May be used when a person reasonably believes that the level of force is necessary for self-defense or defense of others (including unborn children) in response to an imminent threat.
Here is a very interesting article https://www.foxnews.com/us/missouri...have-rifle-seized-during-police-search-report
* * *
As a former career prosecutor in NY, I won't weigh in on whether a prosecution under Missouri's criminal statutes would be viable. The "devil is in the details" -- i.e., the actual statutory language (not a paraphrasing summary) and how the language has been interpreted by the state's courts (e.g., what constitutes "an imminent attack"?). But I will say:
  • The couple has not always been consistent in what they've said to reporters (e.g., when they called the police and why), and this part of their story to Hannity on July 7 strikes me as particularly hard to swallow: "They said they were going to kill us [and] burn down the house, that they were going to be living in our house after I was dead. They pointed to different rooms and said that’s gonna be my bedroom, that’s gonna to be the living room and I’m gonna be taking a shower in that room."
    • Their attorney has "walked back" those claims by saying those were the kinds of threats the couple received after the videos and pics of June 28 went viral. Probably because the UPI photographer and a local reporter on the scene stated that nothing like that happened..
  • Mr. McCloskey seems to have a self-serving, selective view of property rights. Seven years ago, he smashed a couple of bee hives that the neighboring synagogue had established in order to produce honey that, together with apples from trees on the synagogue's property, the congregation planned to serve for Rosh Hashanah. He left a note threatening bogus legal action if the synagogue did not swiftly remove what remained of the hives he'd smashed. That -- along with some other of his-the couple's obnoxious conduct through the years -- is the kind of thing which (rightly) gives my profession a bad name.
  • The McCloskey should enroll in -- and successfully complete -- a firearm safety and handling training course!!
 
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