De Beers

[Kazamaki]

I’ve been doing a lot of research and have visited all the diamond stores in London, from Hatton Garden to the high end stores in Bond Street (Cartier, Tiffany’s, De Beers).

I’ve not been told what ring my gf would like and she’d be happy with anything that comes from me.

What I liked the most was De Beers. I was really impressed with their Iris machine, where you can see the performance of the diamond by passing light through it. It was beautiful to see such perfect symmetry. They say they go beyond the 4 C’s, testing its fire, life and brilliance. When the store assistant compared it with an example triple excellent gia diamond that they’d reject because it didn’t have the same level of brilliance, you really noticed a huge difference in the machine.
The sales staff were great too. No sales tactics or any need to tell you why they are the best etc.

- Before I decide on a ring, I wanted to ask if anyone else has experience with De Beers?

- Even though that impressed me, is there any reason why I shouldn’t believe what they say and show me?

- Only concern is you don’t get a gia certificate. I asked why not and I was told it was to do with longer wait times on diamonds sending them to USA and extra cost etc


Other rings in diamond district offer gia cert and are cheaper but they all felt very similar and there was nothing special to decide between them. They were all just...diamonds..

I guess De Beers felt a bit more unique and special.

P.S although every girl would probably prefer a Tiffany ring, I was least impressed with them. Nice ring but the sales staff were so up themselves and think they are the best in the industry. The whole brand felt so commercialised. Also no GIA - when I asked about it, the sales lady gave the impression that they are above and beyond GIA standards.

 

[OoohShiny]

The only reason I can think of that any given brand would not want to send their stones to a industry-recognised grading company is because they fear they will come back with grading that is lower than buyers would expect of the 'premium' experience and branding that they are selling.

If they have nothing to fear, why not do it?

That line about extra time to get a stone certified is nonsense - what's an extra few weeks if it enabled a higher price to be commanded? Unless, of course, it would come back at a grade that would mean a lower price would be the result...

De Beers and Tiffany and Cartier and the like are selling their 'brand' - make something expensive enough and people will think that it's 'exclusive' because mere plebs in the world are too poor to afford it. If you are in the position to be able to afford a branded product, that's great, but buy with the awareness that you are paying for a lot of 'label' in that price!


The De Beers stone may well have had excellent symmetry, but without grading you will never know. And stones can have great symmetry but still be 'steep/deep', reducing the performance of the stone by having angles that allow light to leak out the sides, and potentially hiding weight in the girdle so that a stone of a given carat weight faces up smaller than another stone bought elsewhere, so that the customer still pays the price for the weight but is encouraged to spend even more to get a heavier stone that looks larger.

They may even have deliberately picked an absolutely terribly cut GIA stone to use in their 'special machine', although I'm sure no seller has ever done that in the history of sales If you go back for any reason, you should ask for the GIA grading report number, as then you can see exactly what the stone has been assessed as


If you are happy to post your budget, your 4C requirements, and the timescales you are working to, we can help find you stones that will maximise the outcomes from your budget and very likely out-perform the 'branded' stones you are paying extra for (so that they can pay snooty assistants to denigrate online sellers while serving you expensive coffee in a high-ground-rent city centre store!)

 

[KKJohnson]

I’m sorry but seeing a diamond preform in a special machine does not mean the same performance is guaranteed in a real life setting. I’m sure the machine was pretty neat but at the end of the day it is a selling tactic.

 

[doberman]

Like Tiffany, DeBeers doesn't get their stones graded out of house. I will say that their stones seem to be beautiful though I've never owned one. If you really like the entire experience - and the experience is what you're paying extra for - there's nothing wrong with that. The alternative would be an AGS0 signature-type stone, it's actually been tested for light performance. I would price those and then compare.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

DeBeers does seem to have a line that has beautifully cut stones. Have you compared prices with US vendors such as Whiteflash that sell superideal cut diamonds? Because we have many people from outside the US that find even with import taxes, they do better on price.

But in regard to brand, I do like some Tiffany jewelry, but their diamonds are mostly equivalent to excellent cut and certainly not top of the line ideal cuts. So that is not an item I'd buy at Tiffany. I wouldn't have a problem buying from DeBeers because I'll always choose top cut quality. If it's a round, I'd just check price against Whiteflash.com as they generally have the best selection and prices of the hearts and arrows dealers.

 

[MollyMalone]

Like Tiffany, DeBeers doesn't get their stones graded out of house. I will say that their stones seem to be beautiful though I've never owned one. If you really like the entire experience - and the experience is what you're paying extra for - there's nothing wrong with that. The alternative would be an AGS0 signature-type stone, it's actually been tested for light performance. I would price those and then compare.

Nope. De Beers' diamonds above 1 ct. come with both a GIA report --
see 15th FAQ on this page
http://www.debeers.com/faqs/
-- and one from IIDGR, the lab launched by De Beers, but which also assesses diamonds other than De Beers-Forevermark; Rapaport started accepting, for listing, stones graded by IIDGR in the spring of 2016:
http://www.nationaljeweler.com/diam...d-grading-reports-from-2-labs-added-to-rapnet

Last I heard, Tiffany e-rings with a center stone above 1 ct are also accompanied by a GIA report. That would seem to be borne out by this eBay listing for a 1.12 Lucida ct. e-ring with a June 2017 GIA report that sets forth the two identifying numbers -- Tiffany's and GIA's -- inscribed on the stone.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/TIFFANY-amp-CO-CLASSIC-PLATINUM-DIAMOND-ENGAGEMENT-RING-1-47-CT-G-VVS2-21k-RETAIL-/162693998787?rmvSB=true&nma=true&si=EydVCKMC39km8NVLEY8hkWUOgwY%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

[OoohShiny]

Nope. De Beers' diamonds above 1 ct. come with both a GIA report --
see 15th FAQ on this page
http://www.debeers.com/faqs/
-- and one from IIDGR, the lab launched by De Beers, but which also assesses diamonds other than De Beers-Forevermark; Rapaport started accepting, for listing, stones graded by IIDGR in the spring of 2016:
http://www.nationaljeweler.com/diam...d-grading-reports-from-2-labs-added-to-rapnet

Last I heard, Tiffany e-rings with a center stone above 1 ct are also accompanied by a GIA report. That would seem to be borne out by this eBay listing for a 1.12 Lucida ct. e-ring with a June 2017 GIA report that sets forth the two identifying numbers -- Tiffany's and GIA's -- inscribed on the stone.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/TIFFANY-amp-CO-CLASSIC-PLATINUM-DIAMOND-ENGAGEMENT-RING-1-47-CT-G-VVS2-21k-RETAIL-/162693998787?rmvSB=true&nma=true&si=EydVCKMC39km8NVLEY8hkWUOgwY%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

That's really interesting, thank you for posting!

 

[RosieR]

DeBeers does seem to have a line that has beautifully cut stones. Have you compared prices with US vendors such as Whiteflash that sell superideal cut diamonds? Because we have many people from outside the US that find even with import taxes, they do better on price.

But in regard to brand, I do like some Tiffany jewelry, but their diamonds are mostly equivalent to excellent cut and certainly not top of the line ideal cuts. So that is not an item I'd buy at Tiffany. I wouldn't have a problem buying from DeBeers because I'll always choose top cut quality. If it's a round, I'd just check price against Whiteflash.com as they generally have the best selection and prices of the hearts and arrows dealers.

Sadly due to the weakness of the pound it isn't really worth it after shipping and taxing. I would suggest going vintage/ antique, or second hand if looking for a bargin. GIA XXX and AGS 000 stones are not so easy to come by in the UK (well for me because I live outside of LND)

 

[rockysalamander]

From looking at the output of the IRIS, it appears to be similar to the GEMEX brilliancescope. So, you can see the arrows, but not the hearts. Hearts are critical for H&A, so you only see a portion of the necessary equation (and the more important portion to me). IF you want the video online, the IRIS is essentially showing you the reflection of each set of facets. The intensity of the reflection seems to require interpreting shades of grey to determine intensity, but I don't see it revealing leakage (happy if someone has more information on this). There does seem to be a blue color which I suspect is simply a reflection as opposed to being a useful color ramp. So, the Iris seems to be showing symmetry, not performance (light return).

Using this image off their website, on the diamond on the right, you can see that some of the light return just below the 3'oclock arrow is less intense that the others.




Unless you are looking at their super-ideal lines, they are simply selecting from the big pool of diamonds within certain criteria -- which I can't find stated anywhere. I certainly think their inhouse grading would be accurate enough to give you angles and depth, which then allow you to look at ideal parameters. Will they provide an ASET or even IS?

 

[doberman]

Nope. De Beers' diamonds above 1 ct. come with both a GIA report --
see 15th FAQ on this page
http://www.debeers.com/faqs/
-- and one from IIDGR, the lab launched by De Beers, but which also assesses diamonds other than De Beers-Forevermark; Rapaport started accepting, for listing, stones graded by IIDGR in the spring of 2016:
http://www.nationaljeweler.com/diam...d-grading-reports-from-2-labs-added-to-rapnet

Last I heard, Tiffany e-rings with a center stone above 1 ct are also accompanied by a GIA report. That would seem to be borne out by this eBay listing for a 1.12 Lucida ct. e-ring with a June 2017 GIA report that sets forth the two identifying numbers -- Tiffany's and GIA's -- inscribed on the stone.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/TIFFANY-amp-CO-CLASSIC-PLATINUM-DIAMOND-ENGAGEMENT-RING-1-47-CT-G-VVS2-21k-RETAIL-/162693998787?rmvSB=true&nma=true&si=EydVCKMC39km8NVLEY8hkWUOgwY%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Interesting. DeBeers must have changed things, but I haven't been there for a while. But I really haven't heard of Tiffany stones having GIA reports. They basically say as much on their site. Maybe someone with a Tiffany ring will let us know.

 

[Alex Smith]

Sadly due to the weakness of the pound it isn't really worth it after shipping and taxing. I would suggest going vintage/ antique, or second hand if looking for a bargin. GIA XXX and AGS 000 stones are not so easy to come by in the UK (well for me because I live outside of LND)

I wouldn't dismiss looking overseas, shipping is normally free, bank wire transfer offers a small discount too. Even including handling charges and 20% VAT there are major savings to be had. 30 days return policies etc.

 

[Snowdrop13]

If you're in or near London you could see the Crafted by Infinity diamond range in person:

http://www.diamondhousejewellery.com/diamonds/infinity/1/

 

[flyingpig]

I really don't want to say "brand names are rip off. you are better buying a diamond online from a reputable vendor".

However, De Beer's marketing practice really annoys me.
First, De Beer's explanation that they cannot provide the GIA report because they need to ship the stone USA and it is expensive is a complete BS. Other vendors offer GIA diamonds at cheaper prices. Why can't De Beer? In addition, why can't they have their stones graded by GIA when they were cut and polished oversea?
Second, although I have never played with the iris scanner, those images are useless. It shows nearly NOTHING about light return. You see arrows and assess symmetry, which you can do naked eyes. that's it.

Having that said, if you liked the experience at De Beer and the entire package is reasonable for you, go for it.

 

[gm89uk]

Sadly due to the weakness of the pound it isn't really worth it after shipping and taxing. I would suggest going vintage/ antique, or second hand if looking for a bargin. GIA XXX and AGS 000 stones are not so easy to come by in the UK (well for me because I live outside of LND)

Diamonds are imports, the pound weakness affects purchases you make in the US AND those in the UK. You'll be surprised how much cheaper stones can be abroad, even with tax and shipping.

 

[Kazamaki]

Thanks everyone for the feedback. It’s been useful.

Overall impression that I’m seeing is:

• There’s nothing special about De Beers diamonds, despite what they claim.
• Lack of trust towards the diamond quality due to their in-house grading (for stones <1ct)
• Iris machine only shows symmetry and arrows, not hearts or light performance
• Compare their stones against ones that have a GIA number
• Compare against white flash prices
• Also get the complete spec of the diamond (dimensions, 4c’s)

I was looking at stones between 0.5-0.75, anywhere from vs2 / f and above.

 

[OoohShiny]

Thanks everyone for the feedback. It’s been useful.

Overall impression that I’m seeing is:

• There’s nothing special about De Beers diamonds, despite what they claim.
• Lack of trust towards the diamond quality due to their in-house grading (for stones <1ct)
• Iris machine only shows symmetry and arrows, not hearts or light performance
• Compare their stones against ones that have a GIA number
• Compare against white flash prices
• Also get the complete spec of the diamond (dimensions, 4c’s)

I was looking at stones between 0.5-0.75, anywhere from vs2 / f and above.

Are you able/happy to post your budget? And your state / country? (So that we can know whether to take into account import tax)

I think that we cannot accurately assess whether the first point is true or not - as per the second point, the lack of transparency with regards to grading prohibits this, and this creates an atmosphere of suspicion, even though I'm sure De Beers et al would rather call it 'mystique'!

Pricescope-recommended vendors you should consider include:

High Performance Diamonds (selling Crafted By Infinity stones)
Brian Gavin
Whiteflash
Good Old Gold
Gemconcepts.net
Cutwise.com
Victor Canera
Jewels by Grace
Diamonds by Lauren

and I'm sure there's more that I'm forgetting...

 

[Kazamaki]

I’m London based and would prefer to buy a diamond in person because you get to see it and taking the ring back for resizing is easier etc.

The GIA diamond that doesn’t pass the iris test is
https://www.gia.edu/sites/Satellite...ring=9AECC3A3ED22C2F39C090C76F0BE8B47&qr=null

Anyone see anything wrong with this diamond from the spec alone?

 

[MarionC]

Make sure you look at the diamond in natural light, not just under shop lights, which make everything look terrific.

 

[RosieR]

According to the Holloway Cut Advisor (HCA) it is not a ‘bad’ stone as it has a sore of 1 https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca

The figures don’t look too bad, but maybe you could find a better performer??? Try to stick to within these parameters for a whiteflash ACA diamond. https://www.whiteflash.com/a-cut-above-diamonds-specifications-and-qualifications/

 

[Alex Smith]

I’m London based and would prefer to buy a diamond in person because you get to see it and taking the ring back for resizing is easier etc.

The GIA diamond that doesn’t pass the iris test is
https://www.gia.edu/sites/Satellite?reportno=2135616200&c=Page&childpagename=GIA/Page/ReportCheck&pagename=GIA/Wrapper&cid=1495238251803&encryptedString=9AECC3A3ED22C2F39C090C76F0BE8B47&qr=null

Anyone see anything wrong with this diamond from the spec alone?

77diamonds have a showroom in mayfair I think. However they are more expensive than other vendors from what ive seen, but will price match apparently.

 

[OoohShiny]

I’m London based and would prefer to buy a diamond in person because you get to see it and taking the ring back for resizing is easier etc.

The GIA diamond that doesn’t pass the iris test is
https://www.gia.edu/sites/Satellite?reportno=2135616200&c=Page&childpagename=GIA/Page/ReportCheck&pagename=GIA/Wrapper&cid=1495238251803&encryptedString=9AECC3A3ED22C2F39C090C76F0BE8B47&qr=null

Anyone see anything wrong with this diamond from the spec alone?

Thank you for posting the link

Specs copied to here for ease of discussion!:

gia report number - 2135616200
date of issue - Jul. 7, 2011


Round Brilliant - 7.09 - 7.12 x 4.22 mm
Carat Weight - 1.29 carat
Colour Grade - E
Clarity Grade - VVS1
Cut Grade - Excellent

Depth - 59.5 %
Table - 59 %
Crown Angle - 33.0°
Crown Height - 13.0%
Pavilion Angle - 41.0°
Pavilion Depth - 43.5%
Star Length - 50%
Lower Half - 80%
Girdle - Thin to Medium, Faceted, 3.0%
Culet - None

Polish - Excellent
Symmetry - Excellent
Fluorescence - None

Clarity Characteristics - Pinpoint


It may be GIA XXX but the process averages the readings of the different variables across the stone, meaning it may not be as good as it could be. Being a 60/60 stone (the depth and table each being close to 60%) and with a low (13%) crown height, it will have increased brightness but less fire than stones with a smaller table and a higher crown height. Neither is 'right' and neither is 'wrong' - they are two separate 'flavours' of diamonds - but they may be using a 60/60 stone to flatter their stones if they have higher crowns/smaller tables and are using the fire-tastic look as a selling point.


With regards to seeing stones, I appreciate where you are coming from. However, don't forget that the pricescope-recommended vendors have excellent returns policies, so you can buy a stone you think is good, then take it into local shops to compare it with what they have in stock (remembering to look at both stones in all lights, such as natural cloudy daylight, not just sparkly store lights). If you prefer the local stones, you can return the PS vendior's stone at a minimal cost - likely only the cost of the shipping and maybe the cost of insurance.

Alternatively, you can see Crafted by Infinity diamonds at a store in London, which I encourage you to do. They are basically stones cut to the very tightest of tolerances, so you can experience extreme optical precision and AGS 000 cut in person, then make an informed decision. @Snowdrop13 posted the website address above, and you can also search for 'London' to find threads regarding best places to get rings made in the city.

 

[lalala]

Thank you for posting the link

Specs copied to here for ease of discussion!:

gia report number - 2135616200
date of issue - Jul. 7, 2011


Round Brilliant - 7.09 - 7.12 x 4.22 mm
Carat Weight - 1.29 carat
Colour Grade - E
Clarity Grade - VVS1
Cut Grade - Excellent

Depth - 59.5 %
Table - 59 %
Crown Angle - 33.0°
Crown Height - 13.0%
Pavilion Angle - 41.0°
Pavilion Depth - 43.5%
Star Length - 50%
Lower Half - 80%
Girdle - Thin to Medium, Faceted, 3.0%
Culet - None

Polish - Excellent
Symmetry - Excellent
Fluorescence - None

Clarity Characteristics - Pinpoint


It may be GIA XXX but the process averages the readings of the different variables across the stone, meaning it may not be as good as it could be. Being a 60/60 stone (the depth and table each being close to 60%) and with a low (13%) crown height, it will have increased brightness but less fire than stones with a smaller table and a higher crown height. Neither is 'right' and neither is 'wrong' - they are two separate 'flavours' of diamonds - but they may be using a 60/60 stone to flatter their stones if they have higher crowns/smaller tables and are using the fire-tastic look as a selling point.


With regards to seeing stones, I appreciate where you are coming from. However, don't forget that the pricescope-recommended vendors have excellent returns policies, so you can buy a stone you think is good, then take it into local shops to compare it with what they have in stock (remembering to look at both stones in all lights, such as natural cloudy daylight, not just sparkly store lights). If you prefer the local stones, you can return the PS vendior's stone at a minimal cost - likely only the cost of the shipping and maybe the cost of insurance.

Alternatively, you can see Crafted by Infinity diamonds at a store in London, which I encourage you to do. They are basically stones cut to the very tightest of tolerances, so you can experience extreme optical precision and AGS 000 cut in person, then make an informed decision. @Snowdrop13 posted the website address above, and you can also search for 'London' to find threads regarding best places to get rings made in the city.

+1

 

[Kazamaki]

Thanks for the advice. That’s helped me a lot! I’ll check out crafted by infinity in the next few days and also take a look online at some stones.

 

[OoohShiny]

Thanks for the advice. That’s helped me a lot! I’ll check out crafted by infinity in the next few days and also take a look online at some stones.

If you are telephoning ahead to arrange for them to pull out stones in advance that match your budget and desired 4C characteristics, make sure to ask them to also provide a comparator GIA XXX

GIA XXX is very wide, of course, so you may need to specify one that has angles almost the same as the CBI stones, although even small changes in angles can make a big difference!

 

[OoohShiny]

You can check the CBI inventory on @Wink's site:
https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonds/diamonds-search

and I think the inventory is also listed on the Fortrez website, another CBI dealer (who is not on Pricescope AFAIK) - you have to search for the Ideal cut stones:
http://www.fortrez.com/diamonds/search/

The main CBI website has all the info regarding their added value
http://www.craftedbyinfinity.com/web/home/


Perhaps search through and find stones that are of interest, as they may be able to get them in for you (perhaps at a small cost if they are currently overseas).

Many on here would also recommend looking at G and H stones - well cut diamonds face up extremely bright white even down to H or even I/J/K, so you may be able to get a bigger size for your budget

Don't forget that CBI hand-select the rough and cut the stones in house, so they hide inclusions within the cut, meaning SI1 and SI2 can be eye-clean!

Basically, I would suggest searching by your budget and then seeing what options you have available, so you can pull in stones with different priorities (e.g. size over all else, colour over all else, clarity over all else).

Let us know what you are considering!

 

[Kazamaki]

Any thoughts on this stone?

https://www.gia.edu/UK-EN/report-check?reportno=6235352494

 

[OoohShiny]

Any thoughts on this stone?

https://www.gia.edu/UK-EN/report-check?reportno=6235352494

What's the HCA score on it?

Are you able to get ASETscope or IdealScope images for it?

 

[bmfang]

What's the HCA score on it?

Are you able to get ASETscope or IdealScope images for it?

Comes up as 1.5 HCA.

Stats for everyone:

Round Brilliant
Measurements: 5.37 - 5.38 x 3.31 mm
Carat Weight: 0.59 carat
Color Grade: E
Clarity Grade: VS2
Cut Grade: Excellent

Proportions
Depth: 61.6 %
Table: 57 %
Crown Angle: 34.0°
Crown Height: 14.5%
Pavilion Angle: 41.0°
Pavilion Depth: 43.0%
Star Length: 50%
Lower Half: 80%
Girdle: Slightly Thick, Faceted, 4.0%
Culet: None

Finish
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent

Fluorescence
Fluorescence : None

Clarity Characteristics: Cloud

 

[kenny]

I LOVE da beers..
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[motownmama]