Cushion Price Verification

[m0ney_j]

Hello,

I have been searching for a cushion diamond in the Montreal area for a couple of months and I actually put a deposit on a ring a few days ago. My search for the cushion drew blanks for so long until this one. This may be me getting paranoid and cautious about my purchase so I was hoping I could get insight from this forum as it definitely helped in my search. I love the way it looks in person but I am concerned about the price, its cut and its certification (I get mixed reactions to HRD certified diamonds)

So here are the specs:
Cushion
HRD Certified
Carat: 1.25
Colour: E
Clarity: VS2
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Good
6.17x5.89x4.13
Total Depth: 70.1
Table: 63
Crown Height: 16.5
Pavilion Depth: 51

Can anyone tell me what they think? How much might this go for (I was quoted in Canadian dollars) and how is the cut with the proportions I gave. I am not too certain, but fairly sure, I have the Total Depth and Pavilion depth numbers correct. I would have to call the guy tomorow to confirm this but everything esle is what is on the cert.

Looking forward to here from anyone who can help or at least calm me down cuz I think I can''t sleep since I made the decision :S

 

[boredstiff]

Don''t know much, but I thought I''d chime in. Here is a thread about HRD vs. GIA. link

As for the price, I found a Whiteflash 1.2 ct. cushion H-VS2 for $5,621 USD ($6,097 CAD). Here

You didn''t post the price you paid in your original post. Not sure what going from H to E would do to the price. I''m assuming your cushion is as well cut as the WF cushion.

 

[m0ney_j]

Thanks for the reply - forgot the price (I ain''t thinking straight anymore lol)

Its 10000CAD tax in - so works out to be $8800 - $8900 before taxes (in Quebec)

I think I did my research and I am getting a good price - if I can buy an HRD confidently. Some appraisers and jewellers say I should be confident while others tell me to steer clear. Just at what point to I trust my gut (cuz I do think its a beauty) and when do I stop analyzing numbers/stats?

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 8/26/2009 1:02:38 AM
Author:m0ney_j
Hello,

I have been searching for a cushion diamond in the Montreal area for a couple of months and I actually put a deposit on a ring a few days ago. My search for the cushion drew blanks for so long until this one. This may be me getting paranoid and cautious about my purchase so I was hoping I could get insight from this forum as it definitely helped in my search. I love the way it looks in person but I am concerned about the price, its cut and its certification (I get mixed reactions to HRD certified diamonds)

So here are the specs:
Cushion
HRD Certified
Carat: 1.25
Colour: E
Clarity: VS2
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Good
6.17x5.89x4.13
Total Depth: 70.1
Table: 63
Crown Height: 16.5
Pavilion Depth: 51

Can anyone tell me what they think? How much might this go for (I was quoted in Canadian dollars) and how is the cut with the proportions I gave. I am not too certain, but fairly sure, I have the Total Depth and Pavilion depth numbers correct. I would have to call the guy tomorow to confirm this but everything esle is what is on the cert.

Looking forward to here from anyone who can help or at least calm me down cuz I think I can''t sleep since I made the decision :S

HRD are a respected lab, better known in Europe than the US. For pricing you can use the search tool above to compare prices of similar, generally diamonds being sold online are cheaper than those from a brick and mortar store. If you like this one thats fine, but before you commit, see if you can look at some more cushions in person of different types to make sure this is exactly what you want.

 

[m0ney_j]

Thanks for the reply Lorelei

Funny that you mentioned the price checker - I''ve spent the good part of the night (now early morning) raiding the pricescope diamond vendor sites for comparable diamonds. I agree that the online prices are lower - but after US exchange rates and applicable canadian taxes it is somewhat around the range of what I am paying, which gives me some peace of mind (although they all are a few hundred dollars CAD less - assuming I''m taxing everthing right).

I have actually seen quite a few cushions and really was looking for different kind of cut - but this one is actually cut slightly different on the pavilion than some of the ones I''ve actually seen (don''t think I''ve seen it posted on some of the big "cushion" discussions on these forums). I''ll post the plot when I get the cert - might go get a copy of it tomorrow (whenever I wake up from this all night mulling)

I guess my main concern is the cut now - as I have looked through specs on the comparable diamonds that I have seen online, I''ve found the L/W measurements of the diamonds online are generally a bit higher than the one I am buying. Mine is a 1.25ct, 6.17 x 5.89 - one online is 1.24ct, 6.46x6.17. I had one gemologist tell me he might think its cut too deep. Seems to me those numbers may be negligible but having an expert tell me that makes me wonder. Wondering now if I should just go with my eyes and stop obsessing.

I appreciate your input

 

[Lorelei]

Depth doesn''t always relate to spread or face up size in fancy shapes as they can hold weight in other areas, from the info we have although the cushion depth is a bit greater than some we see I wouldn''t rule it out based on that, the table size is good with a nice steep crown height which can help the diamond show a good display of fire. It sounds like you have done your homework and looked at other cushions, if this one stands out then its well worth serious consideration for purchase.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 8/26/2009 1:02:38 AM
Author:m0ney_j
Hello,

I have been searching for a cushion diamond in the Montreal area for a couple of months and I actually put a deposit on a ring a few days ago. My search for the cushion drew blanks for so long until this one. This may be me getting paranoid and cautious about my purchase so I was hoping I could get insight from this forum as it definitely helped in my search. I love the way it looks in person but I am concerned about the price, its cut and its certification (I get mixed reactions to HRD certified diamonds)

So here are the specs:
Cushion
HRD Certified
Carat: 1.25
Colour: E
Clarity: VS2
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Good
6.17x5.89x4.13
Total Depth: 70.1
Table: 63
Crown Height: 16.5
Pavilion Depth: 51

Can anyone tell me what they think? How much might this go for (I was quoted in Canadian dollars) and how is the cut with the proportions I gave. I am not too certain, but fairly sure, I have the Total Depth and Pavilion depth numbers correct. I would have to call the guy tomorow to confirm this but everything esle is what is on the cert.

Looking forward to here from anyone who can help or at least calm me down cuz I think I can't sleep since I made the decision :S

MoneyJ,

I live in Montreal what store are you considering this purchase from? If its not too far from my downtown office I could bring you my ASET handheld scope to look at the stone with but if you LOVE it that is way more important than our opinions here on this board or how great the light return is. We would also need pictures to know the facet arrangment as the plot on the certificate may not be enough. Here is a list of plots in this thread maybe you see your diamond in one of them https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/cushion-question-for-cehrabehra-and-others.58597/

My Fiance and I went to see a large number of cushions in Montreal and Toronto and saw nothing compared to what I have seen online and from New York. What we did after not finding what we wanted was have stones from GOG and ERD from New York sent to an appraisor in Burlington Vermont and drove an hour to make our selection there https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/the-shocking-final-diamond-choice-i-gave-to-my-fiance-which-one-would-you-pick.121154/ paying $200 for shipping and one hour of appraisor's time was well worth it to us.

Prices in Montreal were as you have seen in your case 15%-50% more on average than online.
The Length and Width of the stone will definitely give you a faceup size that looks more like a 1.1-1.2 Cart compared to the average cushions which are cut shallower.

Nothing wrong with an HRD certificate I would be more wary of Gemscan(Canada) than of them.

Good-Luck,
CCL

 

[m0ney_j]

Hi CCL,

The store is actually near the Olympic Stadium - 15 - 20 mins or so from downtown. Not sure if that is too far for you. I live downtown and I would love to go see it with your scope if you would have the time for me. I could use someone''s advice as I find myself questioning every jeweller and myself constantly. I actually think I''m starting to annoy the jeweller I''m dealing with.

I was considering buying online as I have heard that I only need to pay taxes for jewellery as there is no luxury import tax now. I am just hesitant because after seeing so many cushions in Montreal, Toronto and Ottawa - they all just look so different in person.

Regardless, not sure what the rules are in regards to posting contact information - so I''ll guess I''ll wait for your reply and see what happens. Thanks again for the offer.

 

[m0ney_j]

Here is the plot of cushion diamond - not the actual one from the HRD cert but I found this on another GIA cert. Almost certain this is the same plot

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 8/26/2009 3:19:43 PM
Author: m0ney_j
Here is the plot of cushion diamond - not the actual one from the HRD cert but I found this on another GIA cert. Almost certain this is the same plot

You are a bit far from where I work but you could always buy one http://www.americangemsociety.org/newhandheldaset.htm for $25 + plus shipping.
I might be able to drop by on a weekend but the more you describe this stone and your reservations the more I think you should get a firm idea of what great stone looks like first especially if you can get your deposit back.

Could you tell me where you found that plot? Thats a 4 main modified cushion brilliant and definitely not what most people are looking for here as the extra facets often lead to broken up and smaller flashes.

More commonly desired here in the modern cushion variety in that style would in the 4 main cushion brilliant with the plot listed below. This stone although only just over a carat is bigger faceup than yours http://www.whiteflash.com/premium_select_cushion/Premium-Select-Cushion-cut-diamond-2160880.htm but a smaller crown height.

I have posted the plot here and the ASET below. Can you tell the difference in plots between yours and this one in the pavillion facets?

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

With ASET.

 

[m0ney_j]

Well you are right - I originally was looking for a diamond with these kinds of plots (not so much the top one). However the diamond I am considering buying seemed to just defy the rules from what I had saw. Granted I hadn''t seen the diamond beside other Cushion Brilliants - but I definitely didn''t see the broken up flashes and "shattered glass" look everyone seems to stay away from (me too included). Seems to me if the 4 main facets go all the way to the girdle I don''t get that look so much (please correct me if I am wrong). I got the plot from a diamond on blue nile: http://www.bluenile.ca/pop_int_cert_view.jsp?pid=LD01472142

I am curious to see what kind of light return I get from an ASET. If time were not a factor I''d probably be still searching for more cushions (headaches aside, I''ve enjoyed the search) - but I am close to going forward with this one - it must mean something too me if I can''t let it go with my reservations about it. Did you order your ASET from that site CCL, how long would it take to get it? Then again - I am scared to be disappointed in the results.

Well, after all is said and done - for this diamond at 10K CAD flat tax in, do you think that is reasonable?

 

[Rockdiamond]

HI Evereyone!
m0ney-j: My experience with HRD is that the lab is equivalent to EGL- that is to say , in no way on par with GIA.
In evaluating any stone, I would heavily discount the grade issued by HRD.

I''ve also found that trying to figure out what a diamond looks like based on a plot of a lab report to be useless as well......

 

[Richard Sherwood]

The link that boredstiff gave discussing Paul Sleger's experience with HRD vs GIA mimics my own experience with comparison between these two labs

I consider HRD more reliable than EGL, usually on a par with GIA. Because it's not as well known in the US, you can often get a bargain on an HRD stone.

If you make your purchase contingent on the diamond appraising out to your satisfaction with the independent appraiser of your choice, you'll be okay.

 

[Rockdiamond]

That is an interesting link - I had not seen it before.
The reason I said what I did was that I have seen quite a few occasions where HRD was two grades off in color- and not all that many where the grade seemed to match GIA.
However, maybe it''s due to the fact that we don''t really see a lot of HRD stones- percentage wise, it''s miniscule compared to EGL and GIA here in NYC.

We''re talking maybe 100 HRD stones out of tens of thousands of GIA stones over the years.
It could be that the small amount of my sample is insufficient...however other dealers I generally am involved with are either Israel, or NYC based- and other dealers I''ve spoken to have seen similar results.
This could again be due to the tiny percentage of stone with HRD.


Have you seen quite a few HRD reports Rich?

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 8/26/2009 6:59:46 PM
Author: m0ney_j
Well you are right - I originally was looking for a diamond with these kinds of plots (not so much the top one). However the diamond I am considering buying seemed to just defy the rules from what I had saw. Granted I hadn''t seen the diamond beside other Cushion Brilliants - but I definitely didn''t see the broken up flashes and ''shattered glass'' look everyone seems to stay away from (me too included). Seems to me if the 4 main facets go all the way to the girdle I don''t get that look so much (please correct me if I am wrong). I got the plot from a diamond on blue nile: http://www.bluenile.ca/pop_int_cert_view.jsp?pid=LD01472142

I am curious to see what kind of light return I get from an ASET. If time were not a factor I''d probably be still searching for more cushions (headaches aside, I''ve enjoyed the search) - but I am close to going forward with this one - it must mean something too me if I can''t let it go with my reservations about it. Did you order your ASET from that site CCL, how long would it take to get it? Then again - I am scared to be disappointed in the results.

Well, after all is said and done - for this diamond at 10K CAD flat tax in, do you think that is reasonable?

Yes I ordered it from there. I was in a big hurry like you so it cost me $25 US and and overnight delivery for $50 US plus I got hit with a bill for $14.82 Cad in brokerage and taxes. I was pissed off about the total cost but I was in a desperate hurry to have it ASAP as I was driving to Burlington the on the weekend and for a 10k purchase it was still worth it.

Are you buying it for your Fiance or are you the one who will be wearing it? Have you seen the diamond under the table? By the window? Away from the jewelry store lights in low lighting etc?

Where in downtown are you maybe you could buy it(with return conditions) and we could meet in one of the jewlery stores in Westmount or at an appraisor''s office?

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 8/26/2009 11:20:43 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

Have you seen quite a few HRD reports Rich?

Yes, quite a few over the years. Particularly through one connection, a Belgian diamond dealer with an office here in Sarasota. I've known him for over twenty years, and he uses me for all his appraisal work. The majority of his larger stones are accompanied with HRD reports.

 

[m0ney_j]

Does everyone hate HRD - I mean I have got mixed reactions, but I spoke to an appraiser (GIA gemologist) of the Canadian Jewellers Association and he told me in his 7 years working at a particular store he found maybe 3 or so gradings out of thousands that he had issues with. I took that information in good trust.

But then again there are so many people here giving bad opinions of them... I mean is there certain things they do bad. Some of the posts on this site say there are just differences to the sytems, but are reliable if you understand the differences - Others totally bash em like they are illegitimate. I mean, I don''t know who on here has the credentials or not to answer the question but I guess my only option would be to have the diamond appraised.

I would like to hope for the store which I am dealing with, which has been in business for over 35 years, is one I can trust...

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 8/27/2009 12:28:11 AM
Author: m0ney_j

I guess my only option would be to have the diamond appraised.

Yes, for peace of mind that is what I would recommend. Not only that, but I would recommend making the transaction contingent upon the diamond appraising out to your satisfaction with the independent appraiser of your choice, with a right of return period for ANY reason.

That way you can''t lose.

And again, I consider HRD a good lab, a first tier lab.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 8/27/2009 12:36:32 AM
Author: Richard Sherwood

Date: 8/27/2009 12:28:11 AM
Author: m0ney_j

I guess my only option would be to have the diamond appraised.

Yes, for peace of mind that is what I would recommend. Not only that, but I would recommend making the transaction contingent upon the diamond appraising out to your satisfaction with the independent appraiser of your choice, with a right of return period for ANY reason.

That way you can''t lose.

And again, I consider HRD a good lab, a first tier lab.

I am looking around for one in Montreal to appraise my Fiance''s ring which I will receive this week so I will let you know if I come across someone who meets my criteria. I certainly will have no problem meeting you at an appraisor''s office and bringing the ASET that way you can have a look at our cushion and yours and both through an ASET as well. Hopefully the appraisor will have the proper photography setup and will have an Idealscope and Good Microscope as well. We plan on doing this next week.

Sincerely,
CCL

 

[m0ney_j]

Well, I appreciate everyones help here and I do agree that getting the diamond appraised with return conditions will be the best way for me to get some sleep over this.

David and Rich, thank you both for your opinions - I believe they definitely will help me make the right decision.

CCL - I am actually buying this for my Fiance to be ... hopefully lol.
I have seen it outside and, I''m no expert, but I thought it looked great. Low lighting - can''t say that I have. I live up the mountain on Drummond. I was going to call up appraisers listed on this website: http://www.canadianjewellers.com/consumers-search.asp?pg=1&cty=140&typ=Appraisers
Have you contacted any of these people? - I actually think I noticed one of these guys posting on this site.

Regards

 

[m0ney_j]

Hi,

Just an update - I got the return conditions for the diamond based on an appraisal.

I will have pictures of the diamond once I get em, but I think I feel a lot better now.



again thanks to everyone who replied and helped

 

[Rockdiamond]

You''re welcome m0ney-j!

It''s important to remember that you are buying the diamond, not the paper.
Still, you want to make sure you''re getting a good deal. If the stone checks out in terms of grade, the price sounds fair to me.
In terms of prices, remember that buying in a store generally costs a bit more than buying online- however the added benefit of being able to have a physical location and view the diamond may be worth it for some.


Last thing about the report: I might suggest sending the diamond to GIA, if the appraiser checks it out well. At the end of the day, you will be better served owning such a high quality diamond with a GIA report.

 

[diagem]

Date: 8/26/2009 10:13:21 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood
The link that boredstiff gave discussing Paul Sleger''s experience with HRD vs GIA mimics my own experience with comparison between these two labs

I consider HRD more reliable than EGL, usually on a par with GIA. Because it''s not as well known in the US, you can often get a bargain on an HRD stone.

If you make your purchase contingent on the diamond appraising out to your satisfaction with the independent appraiser of your choice, you''ll be okay.

I am with you on this one...
HRD is a first tier lab among other great services they offer...

http://www.hrdantwerp.be/content/hrd_antwerpen/about_hrd_antwerp.htm

I find their color grading in par with GIA..., based on my experience their clarity grades are a bit softer vs. GIA clarity grades..., but it doesnt make GIA correct...

 

[Rockdiamond]

This is an interesting difference of opinion.
I''ve done some calling around this afternoon- and found that the other dealers I''ve called had the same experience as me- HRD softer on colors than GIA.
An HRD Fancy Yellow will equate to a GIA Fancy Light Yellow..and so on.

It could be that the different locales have something to do with the type of goods we see.
But I don''t believe there''s any debate that HRD is nowhere near GIA in terms of volume, consumer awareness, or confidence.

 

[m0ney_j]

Date: 8/27/2009 1:08:58 AM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

Date: 8/27/2009 12:36:32 AM
Author: Richard Sherwood

Date: 8/27/2009 12:28:11 AM
Author: m0ney_j

I guess my only option would be to have the diamond appraised.

Yes, for peace of mind that is what I would recommend. Not only that, but I would recommend making the transaction contingent upon the diamond appraising out to your satisfaction with the independent appraiser of your choice, with a right of return period for ANY reason.

That way you can''t lose.

And again, I consider HRD a good lab, a first tier lab.

I am looking around for one in Montreal to appraise my Fiance''s ring which I will receive this week so I will let you know if I come across someone who meets my criteria. I certainly will have no problem meeting you at an appraisor''s office and bringing the ASET that way you can have a look at our cushion and yours and both through an ASET as well. Hopefully the appraisor will have the proper photography setup and will have an Idealscope and Good Microscope as well. We plan on doing this next week.

Sincerely,
CCL

Hi CCL,

Just curious if you found your appraiser and set a date to get your ring appraised?

I am going forward with the diamond purchase but would like to see it with your ASET if you wouldn''t mind.

Regards
m0ney_j

 

[m0ney_j]

Hi CCL,

Not sure if you were able to catch my last message but I would love to come meet you to take a look at my diamond with your handheld ASET if the offer still stands

Regards,
Mark

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 8/31/2009 10:15:44 AM
Author: m0ney_j
Hi CCL,

Not sure if you were able to catch my last message but I would love to come meet you to take a look at my diamond with your handheld ASET if the offer still stands

Regards,
Mark

I read your message still trying to arrange a meeting with Odile or another appraisor who has a good light setup for photographing ASET or Idealscope. You could just use it by hand but they are hard to photograph without a good setup.

We have our ring now so it will be this week I will post the appraisor''s name and then you can contact them so we can coordinate.

Regards,
CCL

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 8/31/2009 10:15:44 AM
Author: m0ney_j
Hi CCL,

Not sure if you were able to catch my last message but I would love to come meet you to take a look at my diamond with your handheld ASET if the offer still stands

Regards,
Mark

I arranged an appointment next Monday at 1:30PM with Odile she is the founder of the EGM school (listed on the CJA list you posted) and still teaches there and does professional appraisal work. In her school she has a table top ASET(much easier to get the lighting and alignment correct) so that would be much better than my handheld and she will bring it to her office as part of the appraisal. The appraisal cost in Montreal is standard it seems at $75(at least from three people I called) which is pretty good in my opinion. Bring your camera she doesn't have a camera setup for the ASET but could probably snap a picture through the lense I will be doing this.

Her office is at 1290 Van Horne not at the school address listed on the CJA. If you can't make that appointment you can contact her and get a list of times that work for you and I'll pick one that I can make. I would be happy to make the appointments one after another so that I can see your stone and vice versa while I am there getting our ring appraised.

Regards,
CCL

 

[m0ney_j]

Date: 8/31/2009 10:59:02 AM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover
I arranged an appointment next Monday at 1:30PM with Odile she is the founder of the EGM school (listed on the CJA list you posted) and still teaches there and does professional appraisal work. In her school she has a table top ASET(much easier to get the lighting and alignment correct) so that would be much better than my handheld and she will bring it to her office as part of the appraisal. The appraisal cost in Montreal is standard it seems at $75(at least from three people I called) which is pretty good in my opinion. Bring your camera she doesn''t have a camera setup for the ASET but could probably snap a picture through the lense I will be doing this.

Her office is at 1290 Van Horne not at the school address listed on the CJA. If you can''t make that appointment you can contact her and get a list of times that work for you and I''ll pick one that I can make. I would be happy to make the appointments one after another so that I can see your stone and vice versa while I am there getting our ring appraised.

Regards,
CCL

Thanks CCL,

I actually talked to Odile last week and was planning to possibly go get my appraisal this Friday (she had told me to call on the day before to make the appointment). I don''t want to force you to move your appointment by any means but I think I am aiming for Thursday or Friday this week. If she has her own table top ASET than I will probably just call and ask her if I can see it with that equipment instead. On the other hand if you are able to make it, I would definitely be glad to go on the same day. I am actually out of town until tomorrow afternoon so I am only going to be able to contact Odile when I get back. I''ll post my times when I talk to her tomorrow.

m0ney_j