Cuprian Tourmaline Woes

[Xrisus]

Hi everyone,

Can somebody please enlighten me, is it just me or is it getting really hard to find a nice cuprian tourmaline? I was looking for a color similar to the pic attached, hoping-probably in a silly way to find a remotely similar stone on a budget that I can afford. However this stone cost around $13,000. Granted it was from a higher end site where they are pretty picky about their stock (Palagems); but my goodness- I just can''t find much of anything out there that isn''t the price of a used car or motorcycle! At that, it''s kind of hard to find any cuprian, lots of afghani stuff, but no cuprian (I''m pretty sure the Afghani stuff doesn''t have copper in it to make it glow). Have all the stock from Mozambique or Nigeria dried up or been all bought out by bigger corporations stockpiling them? Oh sigh, I guess it''s strike while the iron is hot, because once those glowy guys are gone--they''re gone!

 

[Michael_E]

Date: 1/7/2010 7:51:38 PM
Author:Xrisus
However this stone cost around $13,000.

Prices on Pala are quite variable, depending on the seller, you might want to ask around about this. How about this one, over 70 carats and it could probably be had for under $400,000. Now this is WAY out of the budget, at least for this year.

 

[RockHugger]

Date: 1/7/2010 9:03:00 PM
Author: Michael_E

Date: 1/7/2010 7:51:38 PM
Author:Xrisus
However this stone cost around $13,000.

Prices on Pala are quite variable, depending on the seller, you might want to ask around about this. How about this one, over 70 carats and it could probably be had for under $400,000. Now this is WAY out of the budget, at least for this year.

**Licks the computer screen**

 

[Harriet]

Michael,
There isn't enough blue.

Xrisus,
I was lucky and attended last year's Tucson show. One thing that struck me was how many African Paraiba-type tourmalines there were. There was some controversy over whether or not they were colour-treated, but I don't know if it's been resolved. That said, they're no bargain. The Brazilian material is even more expensive.

 

[chrono]

As with any gemstone, if you have an unlimited budget, you can buy any nice gemstone. Yes, a nice cuprian tourmaline is available but it may not agree with your budget, as you have noted yourself. The newer stuff coming out of the ground from Mozambique and Nigeria are still quite expensive considering the lack of glow.

 

[LD]

As an owner of some Mozambique material I can categorically tell you that a good piece will glow. Having said that, I''ve seen some that wouldn''t glow even if you nuked them! There''s good and bad in all material but unfortunately, as you''re finding, the good ones are getting few and far between.

 

[Sagebrush]

All,

Cuprian is holding its price. I personally love and have purchased some of the green stones and the more green the better the price. The glow will set your teeth on edge. Here is a very fine one I sold just recently. 0.88 7.6x5.3mm. It may look a bit fuzzy but it is eye-clean, the image is about 10 times its actual size.

 

[Kashmira]

Does "cuprian" mean that the colour comes from copper? Is it the copper that makes the tourmaline "glow"? How big is the difference between a copper bearing vs. a non-copper bearing tourmaline if the colour, cut and size were exactly the same (if the colour can be the same)?

 

[T L]

Date: 1/8/2010 4:15:41 PM
Author: Kashmira
Does 'cuprian' mean that the colour comes from copper? Is it the copper that makes the tourmaline 'glow'? How big is the difference between a copper bearing vs. a non-copper bearing tourmaline if the colour, cut and size were exactly the same (if the colour can be the same)?

Yes, cuprian refers to the presence of copper in the tourmaline. It is the copper that gives the tourmaline this intense saturated vivid blue color which appears to glow. However not all cuprians glow, and many unscrupulous sellers will tout the rarity of a cuprian and try to sell it for a great deal of money, even if it does not glow. The original Brazilian paraibas are unparalleled in color/glow, and cost anywhere from $10K to $30K/ct depending on size, clarity, more blue (blue is more expensive than green) and if it's not heat treated (a great rarity), the price can go higher even. The Mozambique find has some very fine stones as well, and they are less per carat (maybe $3K/ct when I last checked), but also very expensive for glowy stones.

I do not know if the cuprians today are being artificially enhanced in color (other than gentle heat), but I do know that they are being resin filled since many of them are included and full of cracks. Therefore, when buying, insist on a reputable lab report that identifies the full extent of treatment including fillers.

As far as the differences between a non-copper bearing indicolite vs a glowy one (cuprian), the difference is as wide as the Grand canyon. While there are some beautiful Afghani stones, until you've seen a true glowy cuprian, it's just not the same IMO. The best way I can describe a top quality paraiba is like blue kryptonite. They really glow as if they have an internal electrical source, but that is always true for any stone of incredibly super vivid color. Top Burmese rubies are glowy in that respect as well.

 

[marcy]

I love the colors.

Sigh they are so expensive.

 

[Sagebrush]

Tourmaline Lover,

I have not heard of resin filled cuprian tourmaline in the market, however, based on the dictum, whatever can be done, will be done, I suppose it shouldn''t be a surprise.

 

[Kashmira]

Date: 1/8/2010 8:54:20 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 1/8/2010 4:15:41 PM
Author: Kashmira
Does ''cuprian'' mean that the colour comes from copper? Is it the copper that makes the tourmaline ''glow''? How big is the difference between a copper bearing vs. a non-copper bearing tourmaline if the colour, cut and size were exactly the same (if the colour can be the same)?

Yes, cuprian refers to the presence of copper in the tourmaline. It is the copper that gives the tourmaline this intense saturated vivid blue color which appears to glow. However not all cuprians glow, and many unscrupulous sellers will tout the rarity of a cuprian and try to sell it for a great deal of money, even if it does not glow. The original Brazilian paraibas are unparalleled in color/glow, and cost anywhere from $10K to $30K/ct depending on size, clarity, more blue (blue is more expensive than green) and if it''s not heat treated (a great rarity), the price can go higher even. The Mozambique find has some very fine stones as well, and they are less per carat (maybe $3K/ct when I last checked), but also very expensive for glowy stones.

I do not know if the cuprians today are being artificially enhanced in color (other than gentle heat), but I do know that they are being resin filled since many of them are included and full of cracks. Therefore, when buying, insist on a reputable lab report that identifies the full extent of treatment including fillers.

As far as the differences between a non-copper bearing indicolite vs a glowy one (cuprian), the difference is as wide as the Grand canyon. While there are some beautiful Afghani stones, until you''ve seen a true glowy cuprian, it''s just not the same IMO. The best way I can describe a top quality paraiba is like blue kryptonite. They really glow as if they have an internal electrical source, but that is always true for any stone of incredibly super vivid color. Top Burmese rubies are glowy in that respect as well.

Thanks for your very informative post!

 

[redfaerythinker]

I got mine from Precision gem... I''d email Gene and ask him if he has any rough left.

 

[Bella_mezzo]

those are sooooo pretty!

 

[T L]

Date: 1/9/2010 11:13:37 AM
Author: Richard W. Wise
Tourmaline Lover,

I have not heard of resin filled cuprian tourmaline in the market, however, based on the dictum, whatever can be done, will be done, I suppose it shouldn''t be a surprise.

Art Nouveau recently had one sent to a gem lab, and they (I think GIA or one of the major gem labs) determined it had filler. She wrote about it on PS. They didn''t say what kind of filler, so my assumption was resin.

 

[LD]

Date: 1/9/2010 5:05:41 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 1/9/2010 11:13:37 AM
Author: Richard W. Wise
Tourmaline Lover,

I have not heard of resin filled cuprian tourmaline in the market, however, based on the dictum, whatever can be done, will be done, I suppose it shouldn''t be a surprise.

Art Nouveau recently had one sent to a gem lab, and they (I think GIA or one of the major gem labs) determined it had filler. She wrote about it on PS. They didn''t say what kind of filler, so my assumption was resin.

There''s been a lot of articles speculating on how long it will be before this is seen. Epoxies and resins have been mentioned.

 

[LD]

Here''s Art Nouveau''s thread:

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/agta-gem-id-report-how-to-interpret.118424/

 

[Xrisus]

Does this mean we should be asking for independent appraisals before buying a cuprian tourmaline, or are some vendors straight forward enough that they will tell you-or not have any such stones to begin with?

 

[Art Nouveau]

Just want to give an update on the paraiba that I posted about previously. The stone was sent to AGTA and the comment said ''indication of fluid in fissures'' but didn''t say what fluid. I tried to call AGTA but couldn''t get anybody to talk to me. That was around the time they were going out of the gem testing business. When I asked the dealer, he said the stone was cut at his facility and was dipped in oil just like what they routinely do with emeralds. So it was oil in the fissures and not resin filled. I am not sure if that is considered an acceptable or routine treatment for paraibas. Anyway, I didn''t buy the stone as I felt he was asking too much for what it is. It has a big window, is very included (probably would have looked worse without the oil), but it does glow more than the best Mozambique stone that I have ever seen.

AN

 

[T L]

Thanks for the update AN. However, if they''re filling cuprians with oil, I wouldn''t be surprised it they were filled with epoxies and resin as well.

 

[AustenNut]

Most of the Paraiba-looking cuprian tourmalines I''ve seen are quite expensive. How did you want to use it? If it''s not for a ring or a bracelet have you considered apatite? It''s more fragile than tourmaline, but I''ve seen pictures that appear positively glowing.

 

[Xrisus]

The only concern I had about apatite was that it would not have that "glowy" characteristic to it, despite being somewhat similar in color. Does anyone out there seen apatite next to a cuprian tourmaline. I know that they will look different, but is it a drastic difference? I imagine the apatite just wouldn''t look as lively.

 

[LD]

Apatite on the left

 

[Arkteia]

I could tell immediately, even before looking at what you wrote. Huge difference. I bet it is even bigger in life.

 

[Gypsy]

I think Apatite is stunning personally. Particularly since I was introduced to it at an exihibit of jewelry by world masters and it was an exquisite piece. But even to my untrained eye, I can tell the difference between it and a cuprian tourmaline. It does have a glow about it, and I've been shopping them to get a nice one for a pendant, but it's just not the same. Still stunning on it's own merits of course.

 

[chrono]

Date: 1/9/2010 9:25:14 PM
Author: Xrisus
Does this mean we should be asking for independent appraisals before buying a cuprian tourmaline, or are some vendors straight forward enough that they will tell you-or not have any such stones to begin with?

My concern is that some vendors may not be aware of it as it is a fairly new treatment.

 

[Arkteia]

Date: 1/10/2010 3:32:50 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds
Apatite on the left

Both settings are nice, but the one on the right is very, very interesting.

 

[LD]

Date: 1/10/2010 6:09:30 PM
Author: crasru
I could tell immediately, even before looking at what you wrote. Huge difference. I bet it is even bigger in life.

No not a huge difference actually.

Apatite glows - the good ones anyway. The colour is more blue (less green) but is gorgeous and it's the one gemstone that I wear that I'm asked about the most.

To the layperson in the street, they can often confuse Apatite (especially if a vendor has called it Paraiba Apatite) with Paraiba Tourmaline. Trained eyes will know the difference instantly but Apatite is a wonderful substitute if you can't obtain the real deal or your budget is limited.

However, I do need to stress that there are good and bad Apatite (as with all gemstones). Poor Apatites can be incredibly silky and this does interfere with the glow.

 

[T L]

Date: 1/11/2010 1:38:57 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds

No not a huge difference actually.

Apatite glows - the good ones anyway. The colour is more blue (less green) but is gorgeous and it''s the one gemstone that I wear that I''m asked about the most.

To the layperson in the street, they can often confuse Apatite (especially if a vendor has called it Paraiba Apatite) with Paraiba Tourmaline. Trained eyes will know the difference instantly but Apatite is a wonderful substitute if you can''t obtain the real deal or your budget is limited.

However, I do need to stress that there are good and bad Apatite (as with all gemstones). Poor Apatites can be incredibly silky and this does interfere with the glow.

Now THAT explains why I think apatite looks more "glassy" to me than tourmaline. On a side note, the neon color in Apatite is getting more expensive too, although not reaching the astronomic pricing on top cuprians.

 

[chrono]

LD,
If you didn''t admit that one of the two is an apatite, I would have thought both were cuprians at a glance from the picture. It''s only because you said one is an apatite, then I immediately knew which one it is based on experience and knowledge about their colouring.