Created Diamonds?
- Thread starter kiwifuz
- Start date
- Status
Thanks!!
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2000
- Messages
- 19,016
mike04456
Brilliant_Rock
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2002
- Messages
- 1,441
Colorless synthetic diamonds exist, but they currently cost more to produce than natural diamonds, and so are not economic. The reason has to do with the way the high-pressure high-temperature method works. To get a colorless diamond, you have to have one that is relatively free of impurities such as nitrogen (which is reponsible for brown/yellow colors in diamond). But the problem is that adding nitrogen significantly speeds up diamond growth. So Gemesis can get a nice yellow synthetic in a few days and make a profit on it, but a colorless diamond would take far longer, long enough to eat up any profits.
The Apollo CVD process shows some promise, however. It apparently produces brown to light brown type IIa diamonds, which are the same type used in the GE process to improve color. So conceivably these Apollo diamonds, which are very cheap to produce, could be rendered colorless after production using the GE HPHT process.
Colorless synthetics should hit the market eventually, but it may be a few years.
The Apollo CVD process shows some promise, however. It apparently produces brown to light brown type IIa diamonds, which are the same type used in the GE process to improve color. So conceivably these Apollo diamonds, which are very cheap to produce, could be rendered colorless after production using the GE HPHT process.
Colorless synthetics should hit the market eventually, but it may be a few years.
niceice
Brilliant_Rock
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2003
- Messages
- 1,792
http://www.apollodiamond.com/ claims to be producing gem quality diamonds, but we're not concerned. http://www.chatham.com has been producing lab grown colored gems (and yellow diamonds) for about twenty years, but we still sell more 'natural' colored gems than Chatham lab created gems. The fact is that people seem to prefer 'real' gems over lab grown despite the price difference.
Gary - that's funny and an excellent point!
Gary - that's funny and an excellent point!
I must agree with "niceice". People have been trying to do this for years without any significant success. So yes, there is a possibility that there may be actual synthetic diamonds that hit the market in a few years. However, this will never change the fact that customers want to buy the real thing. I've read the articals relating to the Gemesis and Apollo CVD process and I can understand how it may cause concern out there in the market. However, I doubt that this concern will be long-lived. Fortunately, most men will want to buy the "real thing" for the women that they love, not just an imitation. "Long Live Real Natural Diamonds"
mike04456
Brilliant_Rock
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2002
- Messages
- 1,441
derekinla
Shiny_Rock
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2003
- Messages
- 467
I beg to differ,
I posted an informal poll on DT a while back asking whether people would purchase a man made diamond over a natural one with the following hypothetical scenario:
1) "Man Made" Diamond: 1.0 carat D VS1 Ideal Cut, AGS 000, 8*, HOF, H&A HCA score <2 for say $4000
2) Natural Diamond: 1.0 carat D VS1 Ideal Cut, AGS 000, 8*, HOF, HCA, H&A score <2 for say $8000
42 said they would buy the man made, 27 the natural
I for one, voted for the man made diamond for the following reasons:
1) Man made diamonds are also made of carbon covalently bonded in a tetrahedal structure with the same physical properties as natural diamonds.
2) It really doesn't matter to me whether the diamond comes from the center of the earth, Russia, Africa, Canada, the Moon, or someone's secret lab in Boston or Florida.
3) The sentimenal, emotional, cultural, or psychological aspects of owning a natural diamond don't have any impact on how synthetic or natural diamonds perform on Brilliant Scope scores, Isee2 scores, or any other measure of visual performance.
4) More "Bling Bling" for the Buck! For shizzle!
I posted an informal poll on DT a while back asking whether people would purchase a man made diamond over a natural one with the following hypothetical scenario:
1) "Man Made" Diamond: 1.0 carat D VS1 Ideal Cut, AGS 000, 8*, HOF, H&A HCA score <2 for say $4000
2) Natural Diamond: 1.0 carat D VS1 Ideal Cut, AGS 000, 8*, HOF, HCA, H&A score <2 for say $8000
42 said they would buy the man made, 27 the natural
I for one, voted for the man made diamond for the following reasons:
1) Man made diamonds are also made of carbon covalently bonded in a tetrahedal structure with the same physical properties as natural diamonds.
2) It really doesn't matter to me whether the diamond comes from the center of the earth, Russia, Africa, Canada, the Moon, or someone's secret lab in Boston or Florida.
3) The sentimenal, emotional, cultural, or psychological aspects of owning a natural diamond don't have any impact on how synthetic or natural diamonds perform on Brilliant Scope scores, Isee2 scores, or any other measure of visual performance.
4) More "Bling Bling" for the Buck! For shizzle!
mike04456
Brilliant_Rock
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2002
- Messages
- 1,441
derek--two problems I see:
Your price structure is off. From what I have heard and seen, the synthetics are going to be around 30% less than natural, not 50%.
Synthetic rubies and sapphires have existed for over 100 years, and they are still no more than a niche market--this despite the fact that their prices are a fraction of natural stones (as opposed to merely half price in your example).
Personally, I don't think DT's user base is a representative sample anyway.
Your price structure is off. From what I have heard and seen, the synthetics are going to be around 30% less than natural, not 50%.
Synthetic rubies and sapphires have existed for over 100 years, and they are still no more than a niche market--this despite the fact that their prices are a fraction of natural stones (as opposed to merely half price in your example).
Personally, I don't think DT's user base is a representative sample anyway.
aljdewey
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2002
- Messages
- 9,170
I find it really interesting that whenever this topic comes up, people approach it by looking at what percentage of the *total* market each product will take......for example, 68% want natural diamonds, and 32% want synthetics.
I personally don't think you can lump the market together that way, because there are several reasons/motivators to purchasing jewelry......not just one.
Some people want variety in their jewelry wardrobe, and I see this as being the strongest potential market for created jewels. It allows them to have the variety that they might otherwise be unable to fund if natural stones were the only option.
Some people want only naturals, and those folks are unlikely to be motivated toward synthetics no matter how perfect or economical they are.
Yet another group of people possibly prefer only natural stones for significant pieces like an e-ring, but are potential market for created stones in other items like earrings, etc.
And the e-ring should actually be a market unto itself, because it carries for *most* people an emotional connotation that may often trump economic considerations.
Each type of purchase is distinctly different, and minimizing the issue down to "would you want a natural or created diamond" doesn't yield meaningful results, in my humble opinion.
If the created diamond industry, for example, went on the kind of marketing blitz that DeBeers did in making the diamond "THE" symbol of one's affection.......and they took the approach of "natural's fine for an e-ring, but why DENY yourself the luxury of jewels when you CAN HAVE them?", I'd suggest they could over time create a nice niche for themselves. They'd need to distance themselves from the "cz" arena (and reeducate the marketplace that created isn't the same thing), but could be a boon if they did.
I think there is a market for each....the question becomes, is the market for each substantial enough or exploitable enough to make it a worthwhile venture? And will the industry price itself accordingly? (In an e-ring, for me, it wouldn't matter how significant the savings is.....that is a purchase that I personally feel commands a natural stone.) But what about a pendant? If I can get a created sapphire for $200 or the same thing in a natural for $800, I may very well buy created. If the created runs $600, though, I'm unlikely to choose created when I can get natural for only slightly more.
Anyway, just to point out that it is a bit more complex than "natural or created"?
I personally don't think you can lump the market together that way, because there are several reasons/motivators to purchasing jewelry......not just one.
Some people want variety in their jewelry wardrobe, and I see this as being the strongest potential market for created jewels. It allows them to have the variety that they might otherwise be unable to fund if natural stones were the only option.
Some people want only naturals, and those folks are unlikely to be motivated toward synthetics no matter how perfect or economical they are.
Yet another group of people possibly prefer only natural stones for significant pieces like an e-ring, but are potential market for created stones in other items like earrings, etc.
And the e-ring should actually be a market unto itself, because it carries for *most* people an emotional connotation that may often trump economic considerations.
Each type of purchase is distinctly different, and minimizing the issue down to "would you want a natural or created diamond" doesn't yield meaningful results, in my humble opinion.
If the created diamond industry, for example, went on the kind of marketing blitz that DeBeers did in making the diamond "THE" symbol of one's affection.......and they took the approach of "natural's fine for an e-ring, but why DENY yourself the luxury of jewels when you CAN HAVE them?", I'd suggest they could over time create a nice niche for themselves. They'd need to distance themselves from the "cz" arena (and reeducate the marketplace that created isn't the same thing), but could be a boon if they did.
I think there is a market for each....the question becomes, is the market for each substantial enough or exploitable enough to make it a worthwhile venture? And will the industry price itself accordingly? (In an e-ring, for me, it wouldn't matter how significant the savings is.....that is a purchase that I personally feel commands a natural stone.) But what about a pendant? If I can get a created sapphire for $200 or the same thing in a natural for $800, I may very well buy created. If the created runs $600, though, I'm unlikely to choose created when I can get natural for only slightly more.
Anyway, just to point out that it is a bit more complex than "natural or created"?
derekinla
Shiny_Rock
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2003
- Messages
- 467
Lawgem,
I agree the informal poll is NOT a representative sample of the average diamond consumer. However, the poll at least illustrates the point that, at least among individuals who frequent and post on diamond chat sites, synthetics may be MORE desireable than natural diamonds at a particular price point. I arbitrarily set up a price differential of 50% but it was merely a hypothetical exercise and I would surmise the results would be much different if I had chosen 30%, 20%, or 10%. It would also be much different if the price differential were say 60%, 70% etc.... Another way to ask this question is, at what point differential would purchasing a synthetic diamond for say an e-ring be worth it... if ever? Although we can't predict the future, given the much larger demand for diamonds over rubies, my guess is that as the price of synthetics fall, demand will surely go up.
derekinla
Shiny_Rock
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2003
- Messages
- 467
First of all, your points are very valid indeed. My question with the poll was really a broad, rough, theoretical exercise and your assesment of the consumer as a highly heterogenious group with distinct motivating factors is well taken. I am still curious, however, so let let me ask a more specific question here......
PS'ers: For the purposes of an engagement ring, at what price differential would a synthetic be acceptable?
mike04456
Brilliant_Rock
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2002
- Messages
- 1,441
I really have no problem with synthetic diamonds as long as they are marketed honestly (which is a different issue). I do think they will carve out their own niche somehow, which indeed is heavily dependent on the ultimate selling price that stablizes once there is a steady, consistent supply.
My problem with the usual debate on this issue is that I often detect a certain amount of "cheerleading" for synthetics, not because they offer greater choice or a cheaper alternative or whatever, but because people perceive them as some "magic bullet" that will take down De Beers, break their monopoly, and make natural diamonds as cheap as dirt. In other words, the unstated argument is, "I want a lot of synthetics on the market so I can buy natural diamonds for a lot less." Never mind that such a development would destroy any market for synthetics, or that a crash in retail diamond prices would bring all diamond mining (a very expensive undertaking) to a screeching halt, thus cutting off the supply and sending prices skyrocketing again.
Personally I would never buy a synthetic for an e-ring because I value the element of natural origin and uniqueness. That doesn't mean I care what anyone else buys.
My problem with the usual debate on this issue is that I often detect a certain amount of "cheerleading" for synthetics, not because they offer greater choice or a cheaper alternative or whatever, but because people perceive them as some "magic bullet" that will take down De Beers, break their monopoly, and make natural diamonds as cheap as dirt. In other words, the unstated argument is, "I want a lot of synthetics on the market so I can buy natural diamonds for a lot less." Never mind that such a development would destroy any market for synthetics, or that a crash in retail diamond prices would bring all diamond mining (a very expensive undertaking) to a screeching halt, thus cutting off the supply and sending prices skyrocketing again.
Personally I would never buy a synthetic for an e-ring because I value the element of natural origin and uniqueness. That doesn't mean I care what anyone else buys.
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2000
- Messages
- 19,016
aljdewey
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2002
- Messages
- 9,170
----------------
On 9/12/2003 6:44:26 PM LawGem wrote:
Personally I would never buy a synthetic for an e-ring because I value the element of natural origin and uniqueness. That doesn't mean I care what anyone else buys.
----------------
I resoundingly second that. I wouldn't care if I could get a perfect, 2ct synthetic for $1.......would never go synthetic for an e-ring. But, agree with LG that I don't care what anyone else buys.
Cast my vote for natural---whatever the price.
derekinla
Shiny_Rock
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2003
- Messages
- 467
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2000
- Messages
- 19,016
Older folk like me (ha ha) can remember when CZ was heavily promoted as being able to fool 9/10 jewelers and had more fire, similar refractive index (2.1 compared to 2.4) and nearly as hard - second hardest gem material 85% as hard as diamond)etc etc.
Well has CZ harmed the diamond market - it may have in the first year or so, but as it got cheaper - no one wanted it.
Same will happen with synthetics
Well has CZ harmed the diamond market - it may have in the first year or so, but as it got cheaper - no one wanted it.
Same will happen with synthetics
elmo
Brilliant_Rock
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2003
- Messages
- 1,160
I agree 100% with what Garry and LawGem are saying...also, when you're making that decision about natural vs. synthetic, consider the long term value, particularly with fancy colors. The curve goes in opposite directions
, down (by a lot) for synthetics as production ramps up and the technology improves, and up for natural fancy colors. Unlike colorless diamonds, the fancy colors are actually rare, even yellow, and I expect will easily hold their value.
Garry's comment about CZ makes me speculate about some *very* lovely $35 costume jewelry down at the local department store in the not-too-distant future though with those synthetic intense oranges that Rich posted
.
Garry's comment about CZ makes me speculate about some *very* lovely $35 costume jewelry down at the local department store in the not-too-distant future though with those synthetic intense oranges that Rich posted
- Joined
- Aug 29, 2003
- Messages
- 15,808
"...was just curious because there are always "created" diamonds on ebay "
The reply could be:
You will not find colorless created diamonds on Ebay! Well, not now. It sounds like two commecial facilities for making them are in the pipeline, but their output will be for technical uses, not jewelry.. or so they claim.
There was a thread mentioning this story earlier, but I could not find it again.Should be about two weeks old...
The reply could be:
You will not find colorless created diamonds on Ebay! Well, not now. It sounds like two commecial facilities for making them are in the pipeline, but their output will be for technical uses, not jewelry.. or so they claim.
There was a thread mentioning this story earlier, but I could not find it again.Should be about two weeks old...
- Joined
- Aug 29, 2003
- Messages
- 15,808
Hm... these are two industries (love and sex) and each turns a profit on its half of the market (that after the divorce rate of first mariages averaged out for EU and the US) despite tough competition from the other. As for diamonds, I would buy sintetics only if they cost the same as the real ones, or more for better. Diamonds are 'friendly' as means to store value in an appealing way - or so the song went. GE already tried to market their synthetized diamonds this way. Althrough unusual, I believe they had the right idea but very little public for it... aside some economcs departments.
Cheers!
I have been reading your posts and I wanted to put in my 2 cents worth. just little info about me. I have been married for 10 year with my husband and because of his health issues we have never been able to afford a nice diamond ring. when he asked me to marrry him I picked out a nice sapphire stone in place of the diamond. I have been very interested in stones and have quite a collection and hope to design some pieces of jewlery soon.
I had an oppurtuniy to buy a russian lab diamond ring. I picked it out as my new wedding ring and I love it. A lot of people have said how much they like it and it is 100 times better then the one my ex-huband picked out for his wife. which for an ex is all that matters.
I know its fake of course, do I care? not really. Debeers is even in the business of making lab diamonds. My husband was more worried because It wasnt the "real thing". I did have a diamond ring for my first marraige and I was paying for it 3 years after my divorce. If people are worried about the emotional stuff of a real diamond they need to worry more about the emotional stuff of the realationship, not the ring.
will this kill Debeers? of course not. But if some woman can get a lab created knock off of Paris Hilton"s million dollar ring why not? With lab created your imagination can go wild with out the price. What is wrong with that?
Would I love my ring more if itwas real? NO. Because there would be no way I would be able to have it. this way I know that my husband did not kill our credit buying me something that we could not afford.I really dont need some company to tell me that its not love unless its a diamond.
do you guys remember the revolutionary(aka terrorist) diamonds that debeers said should not be bought because they were mined with out debeers involment and that was wrong.
reg
I had an oppurtuniy to buy a russian lab diamond ring. I picked it out as my new wedding ring and I love it. A lot of people have said how much they like it and it is 100 times better then the one my ex-huband picked out for his wife. which for an ex is all that matters.
I know its fake of course, do I care? not really. Debeers is even in the business of making lab diamonds. My husband was more worried because It wasnt the "real thing". I did have a diamond ring for my first marraige and I was paying for it 3 years after my divorce. If people are worried about the emotional stuff of a real diamond they need to worry more about the emotional stuff of the realationship, not the ring.
will this kill Debeers? of course not. But if some woman can get a lab created knock off of Paris Hilton"s million dollar ring why not? With lab created your imagination can go wild with out the price. What is wrong with that?
Would I love my ring more if itwas real? NO. Because there would be no way I would be able to have it. this way I know that my husband did not kill our credit buying me something that we could not afford.I really dont need some company to tell me that its not love unless its a diamond.
do you guys remember the revolutionary(aka terrorist) diamonds that debeers said should not be bought because they were mined with out debeers involment and that was wrong.
reg
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2004
- Messages
- 9,159
Regan,
This is an interesting old thread and a few things have changed in the synthetics business. A few have not. There are still no commercially available colorless synthetic diamonds on the market but the lab grown stones are starting to show a presence in the marketplace for fancy colored diamonds. So far the prices of the natural stone have actually gone up, not down but who knows how it will affect things in the future. There are still lots of dealers selling various other substitutes and stimulants that are quite lovely but they are increasingly using terms like ‘lab grown’ to try and convince their customers that they are selling synthetic diamonds when they are actually selling synthetics of other materials. The dominant stimulant is still CZ although it’s starting to become available with various coatings and treatments.
It’s wonderful to hear that you are happy with your new ring. I’m sure Ms. Hilton is also happy with hers.
Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver
Spear
Rough_Rock
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2005
- Messages
- 59
Mike04456 mentioned that:
Colorless synthetic diamonds exist, but they currently cost more to produce than natural diamonds, and so are not economic.
I am wondering what the environmental impact of creating synthetic diamonds are?
And what impact lab created diamonds have versus what impact diamond mining have on the environment?
Colorless synthetic diamonds exist, but they currently cost more to produce than natural diamonds, and so are not economic.
I am wondering what the environmental impact of creating synthetic diamonds are?
And what impact lab created diamonds have versus what impact diamond mining have on the environment?
IOW, Is creating diamonds in labs more environmentally friendly then mining diamonds?
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2004
- Messages
- 9,159
Spear,
I mentioned it again only because Mike's comments were made a year and a half ago. Things can change pretty fast with this sort of industry.
The environmental impact is an interesting question. Mining is, almost by definition, a pretty environmentally destructive activity. Personally, I think that the most environmentally responsible approach to buying diamonds is to choose recycled stones. ‘Diamonds are Forever’ may be a bit trite but it does have some basis in reality. They hold up pretty well and can be remounted many many times with very little environmental impact.
Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver
I mentioned it again only because Mike's comments were made a year and a half ago. Things can change pretty fast with this sort of industry.
The environmental impact is an interesting question. Mining is, almost by definition, a pretty environmentally destructive activity. Personally, I think that the most environmentally responsible approach to buying diamonds is to choose recycled stones. ‘Diamonds are Forever’ may be a bit trite but it does have some basis in reality. They hold up pretty well and can be remounted many many times with very little environmental impact.
Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver
- Status
300x240.png)