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Confusion about fire in new ACA

lookingforsparkle

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 9, 2011
Messages
73
Last week I received my WF ACA upgrade diamond and I’m confused about light performance and fire. I’m not sure if my expectations are unrealistic or if I selected incorrect angles for the fiery look that I prefer. Or, maybe I just need to get used to my new diamond's personality.

The diamond that I am upgrading has a lot of fire and looks great in most lighting. In sunlight, it shoots big bold color flashes. In diffused light, it shimmers. In big box store lights, it is a constant ball of fire. However, it does look lifeless on a cloudy day or inside the house. And a darker center is evidence of the steep/deep proportions.

I selected a WF ACA in hopes of keeping the fire that I love and adding the brilliance lacking in my original diamond. I expected my new ACA to outperform my old steep / deep in every category - but it didn’t. In sunlight, it is pretty but it isn’t a fireball like my original ring. And in other fire lighting situations, it just seems a teeny bit less fiery than I expected.

Is this just what happens when you have more balanced proportions? Or could I increase fire (and keep the brilliance) by selecting different ACA proportions? Are all ACAs about the same in fire and brilliance, or do some combinations lean more one way or the other? And, why is my original diamond so fiery?

I’m not sure if this is a factor, but my original diamond has strong fluorescence. The ACA certificate states negligible fluorescence, but it definitely has a medium level.


Original diamond
Measurements from AGS Megascope

Diameter 6.51 x 6.55
Depth 4.12mm 63%
Crown 35.9 14.7%
Pavilion 41.7 44.7%
Table 59%
Culet 0.4% v small
Girdle 2.2% 1.6% x 2.8%


WF ACA

Diameter 7.2 X 7.22
Depth 4.45mm 61.7%
Crown 34.7 15.4%
Pavilion 40.6 42.9%
Table 55.7%
Girdle 1.5% to 3.8%
Culet pointed
Star 50%
Lower Girdle 76%


Thank you for any insight you can give me.
 

jp201845

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jun 24, 2018
Messages
404
You are correct that your proportions are a different flavor between the 2 diamonds. Your original diamond favors alot of fire and less white light return, and your ACA is more balanced with fire and brilliance in all lighting conditions. If you are truly unhappy with the performance of your ACA i would suggest you call Whiteflash and ask them for a more fiery stone to suit your preference. But keep in mind ACA's will not have a high crown like your original diamond because of their strict parameters. With your ACA that you have now should produce plenty of fire. Maybe give yourself some more time to see if your ACA grows on you, if not call Whiteflash they have excellent customer service.
 

Mlh

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Dec 6, 2019
Messages
577
Here is a chart that may answer your question.
 

Karl_K

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
10,775
They are very different in how they handle light.
The first one is driven by the mains the second is more in balance with the lowers taking a significant role in light return.
It is going to show brightness more often and brighter than the first one.
When showing brightness it is less likely to show fire.

In modern super ideals the arrows aka pavilion mains react to obstruction in some deep pavilion cuts they do not to a greater extent, they are red in ASET instead of blue.
Conversely the areas between the arrows show leakage in deep pavilion stones where they show red in modern ideal cuts.
So a deep pavilion you get mostly bright arrows and in a modern ideal cut they vary from darker up close to bright at a greater distance. This produces the visible in some conditions arrows effect of h&a stones and overall brighter diamonds.

There are some people that do not like the contrasty arrow view of super-ideal cuts.
 

lookingforsparkle

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 9, 2011
Messages
73
This information is enlightening. I thought that I understood the relationship of the angles, but clearly I'm not there yet. So many people on PS say to just pick a super ideal and it will be a beautiful diamond. And, I think that is true. But, within the tight range of super ideal proportions is there a specific combination that will give a bit more fire?

Karl is right that the new stone is so different that it is taking some adjustment for me. So the question is whether I adjust or exchange. And if I were to exchange this diamond for one with slightly different super ideal angles, do you think I would really be able to notice the difference?
 

flyingpig

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 7, 2015
Messages
2,638
But, within the tight range of super ideal proportions is there a specific combination that will give a bit more fire?

Karl is right that the new stone is so different that it is taking some adjustment for me. So the question is whether I adjust or exchange. And if I were to exchange this diamond for one with slightly different super ideal angles, do you think I would really be able to notice the difference?
Within the super ideal proportion ranges, there will not be noticeable difference, unless maybe you are comparing 34/40.6 and (35/40.9).. but then we are still talking about super ideal.

You may want to take a look at August Vintage European Round by Distinctive Gem. It is a OEC style with steep crown and deep pavilion, and super fat arrows acting as light return instead of contrast. Under the ASET, AVRs are nearly all red.
 

Karl_K

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
10,775
This information is enlightening. I thought that I understood the relationship of the angles, but clearly I'm not there yet. So many people on PS say to just pick a super ideal and it will be a beautiful diamond. And, I think that is true. But, within the tight range of super ideal proportions is there a specific combination that will give a bit more fire?

Karl is right that the new stone is so different that it is taking some adjustment for me. So the question is whether I adjust or exchange. And if I were to exchange this diamond for one with slightly different super ideal angles, do you think I would really be able to notice the difference?

Well super-ideal fans get upset with me for this because a well cut rb does show fire....
But looking for max fire in any RB is like looking for love in all the wrong places.
Well cut chunky pears, oec, and some step cuts will blow it away in fire across a wide range of lighting conditions.
 

lookingforsparkle

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 9, 2011
Messages
73
Karl, I had no idea that mrb were not the best for fire! It seems I may be "looking for love in all the wrong places." Unfortunately, my husband wants this anniversary upgrade to be a super ideal ACA. What wife could be critical of that - even if she does love fire?

flyingpig, It's extremely valuable information to know that there would be no visual difference throughout the super ideal range. I specifically selected the new stone because the video seemed a little more fiery than others. I've second guessed myself on the 40.6 pavilion. I've wondered if a 40.8/34.8 might have been a better choice. You have helped to put my mind to rest on this issue.

jp201845, Your suggestion to give myself some time is a good one. My husband has agreed that if I am still unsure after a few months, then we will upgrade. In either case, I'm the winner.
 

Serg

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 21, 2002
Messages
2,536
Karl, I had no idea that mrb were not the best for fire! It seems I may be "looking for love in all the wrong places." Unfortunately, my husband wants this anniversary upgrade to be a super ideal ACA. What wife could be critical of that - even if she does love fire?

flyingpig, It's extremely valuable information to know that there would be no visual difference throughout the super ideal range. I specifically selected the new stone because the video seemed a little more fiery than others. I've second guessed myself on the 40.6 pavilion. I've wondered if a 40.8/34.8 might have been a better choice. You have helped to put my mind to rest on this issue.

jp201845, Your suggestion to give myself some time is a good one. My husband has agreed that if I am still unsure after a few months, then we will upgrade. In either case, I'm the winner.

Hi,
I also prefer Fire.
My opinion that 41.2/34.5 is much much better than 40.6/34.5.
You can find many threads on PS where I were fighting for 41.2/34.5 against 40.6/34.5.
 

Laila619

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
11,660
I think you should exchange your diamond for one with a steeper crown as that is the type of look you love (and I do too!). I would look for something like 35.5 crown 40.6 pav, or 35.1 crown 40.7 pav.
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
56,669
She can't exchange her stone for a 35.5 crown angle because I don't think ACAs or any superideal cuts have crown angles higher than 35.
 

lookingforsparkle

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 9, 2011
Messages
73
Serg, I've read a lot of your messages and we are on the same page. Love the fire.

Laila619, A much better steep/deep than my original would probably work very well for me. I could get bigger and better color too. But my husband worked with WF for my last anniversary present (a gorgeous 5 stone) and he wants to give me a solitaire ACA. So I'd like to work within ideal proportions.

diamondseeker2006, You are spot on. And that has been my dilemma. If I exchanged for a steeper/deeper ACA, would it be enough to notice?
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
56,669
Serg, I've read a lot of your messages and we are on the same page. Love the fire.

Laila619, A much better steep/deep than my original would probably work very well for me. I could get bigger and better color too. But my husband worked with WF for my last anniversary present (a gorgeous 5 stone) and he wants to give me a solitaire ACA. So I'd like to work within ideal proportions.

diamondseeker2006, You are spot on. And that has been my dilemma. If I exchanged for a steeper/deeper ACA, would it be enough to notice?

This one is already 34.7, so I don't know if you would be able to see any difference in 34.8 or 34.9, or not. I tend to think not, but one of the experts might be able to say. I once had a 35/41 GIA stone, and I definitely could not tell any difference between it and my ACAs in terms of fire. You have to be in certain lighting to even see fire, so I actually favor brightness equally since I am inside most of the time.
 

LLJsmom

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Oct 24, 2012
Messages
10,300
I have seen a steeper / deeper AGS 000 with super skinny arrows that I absolutely love. Tons of fire, big random scintillation, and I barely see dark contrast. Truly love that stone.

With that said, I really had to take time to get to know ACAs. That may sound weird. At first glance, the ACAs I looked at looked less fiery than a slightly steeper/deeper AGS000. However, upon closer and more lengthy examination, I came to really appreciate the extreme sharpness and precision in a super ideal. At first the dark arrows seemed very apparent to me, which is not surprising given that I am used to a steeper/deeper stone. After studying it and observing the scintillation pattern, it appears that ACAs have more organized fire, and the contrast of the darker arrows seemed less obvious and more part of the landscape. I did notice that among super ideals, kept leaning toward those with larger tables. That's just me. I know lots of people like smaller tables. The scintillation and fire was more even and even a bit smaller, but more consistent.

When I first started this "super ideal" search, I thought all were pretty much the same. For me, I discovered that they are different. Each diamond is different, and can be even more difficult to choose than an OEC.

And a MRB does not need to be super ideal for me to love it, and just because it is super ideal doesn't mean I will. And there are various types of MRBs that are beautiful, fiery and bright or softly scintillating and glowy. That's where I am along my journey.
 

monipod

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jun 25, 2019
Messages
655
One of the reasons why I didn't choose an Asscher as my first proper purchase was because there's a general view that step-cuts aren't fiery or super sparkly. Finally after two years, I followed my heart and got an Asscher... And man, it's so sparkly that I can barely look at it in the sun. I'm still tempted to get an ACA or some other ideal cut one day but so far my Asscher is satisfying my fire and sparkle needs so much that I'm not bothered about getting a MRB at all. They aren't my most favourite cut to be honest.
 

lookingforsparkle

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 9, 2011
Messages
73
LLJsmom, Hearing about your journey with MRB is helping me to understand an entirely new way to look at diamonds. I always thought that a super ideal round was the be all and end all of the diamond world. I always thought that they would be "the best." I never thought about whether they are "the best" for everyone. You are right about getting to know the ACA. I've had the diamond for about a week and I am starting to see things that I didn't see on the first day. There is fire, but it is different. And I am starting to enjoy the brilliance. Because of the pandemic, I haven't been able to see the diamond in all types of lighting and I am looking forward to that.

monidpod, You followed your heart! That's the real key here, isn't it? I think that there is so much talk about the perfect cut that we forgot to consider that we might have a different preference. I am certainly learning that lesson now.

Overall, you have each helped me on my diamond journey. I see things so differently than I did even a week ago. At first, I was disappointed in the fire performance of my ACA because I was so used to my steep/deep. Now, I am starting to see the unique personality of each of my diamonds and appreciate them for the light show that they offer.
 

LLJsmom

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Oct 24, 2012
Messages
10,300
LLJsmom, Hearing about your journey with MRB is helping me to understand an entirely new way to look at diamonds. I always thought that a super ideal round was the be all and end all of the diamond world. I always thought that they would be "the best." I never thought about whether they are "the best" for everyone. You are right about getting to know the ACA. I've had the diamond for about a week and I am starting to see things that I didn't see on the first day. There is fire, but it is different. And I am starting to enjoy the brilliance. Because of the pandemic, I haven't been able to see the diamond in all types of lighting and I am looking forward to that.

monidpod, You followed your heart! That's the real key here, isn't it? I think that there is so much talk about the perfect cut that we forgot to consider that we might have a different preference. I am certainly learning that lesson now.

Overall, you have each helped me on my diamond journey. I see things so differently than I did even a week ago. At first, I was disappointed in the fire performance of my ACA because I was so used to my steep/deep. Now, I am starting to see the unique personality of each of my diamonds and appreciate them for the light show that they offer.

Please keep sharing your observations. It is very interesting to read about. I think you will notice more about your stone as you own it longer, how it behaves.
 

sugarcloud

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 17, 2020
Messages
76
I have seen a steeper / deeper AGS 000 with super skinny arrows that I absolutely love. Tons of fire, big random scintillation, and I barely see dark contrast. Truly love that stone.

With that said, I really had to take time to get to know ACAs. That may sound weird. At first glance, the ACAs I looked at looked less fiery than a slightly steeper/deeper AGS000. However, upon closer and more lengthy examination, I came to really appreciate the extreme sharpness and precision in a super ideal. At first the dark arrows seemed very apparent to me, which is not surprising given that I am used to a steeper/deeper stone. After studying it and observing the scintillation pattern, it appears that ACAs have more organized fire, and the contrast of the darker arrows seemed less obvious and more part of the landscape. I did notice that among super ideals, kept leaning toward those with larger tables. That's just me. I know lots of people like smaller tables. The scintillation and fire was more even and even a bit smaller, but more consistent.

When I first started this "super ideal" search, I thought all were pretty much the same. For me, I discovered that they are different. Each diamond is different, and can be even more difficult to choose than an OEC.

And a MRB does not need to be super ideal for me to love it, and just because it is super ideal doesn't mean I will. And there are various types of MRBs that are beautiful, fiery and bright or softly scintillating and glowy. That's where I am along my journey.

The way you describe your stones is *i think* what I would want from my diamond. The dark contrast scares me and I think I am after something that will give an overall brighter look (Im still new to all this but surely that is brilliance right?) I am looking at getting an ACA but I am scared that the dark contrast will not be pleasing to me so I have been trying to find the best combo to increase the kind of effect you are talking about. Would you by chance know the stats for your skinny arrowed stone?
 

sugarcloud

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 17, 2020
Messages
76
So fire & brightness is not the same? So confused

My understanding is that brilliance is how bright the diamond looks (white light return) and fire is dispersion of that same light but in the form of rainbow light. I'm still a noob though so I could be totally wrong about that!!
 

lookingforsparkle

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 9, 2011
Messages
73
The way you describe your stones is *i think* what I would want from my diamond. The dark contrast scares me and I think I am after something that will give an overall brighter look (Im still new to all this but surely that is brilliance right?) I am looking at getting an ACA but I am scared that the dark contrast will not be pleasing to me so I have been trying to find the best combo to increase the kind of effect you are talking about. Would you by chance know the stats for your skinny arrowed stone?

Sugarcloud, The stats for my original stone (the one that has more fire) and the new stone (the one that has more brilliance) are in the original message. The deeper stone (the original) has more fire, but it also has a lot of light leakage (darker area) from being so deep. The newer stone is more balanced and doesn't have the darker area.

The new stone is my profile picture.
 

LLJsmom

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Oct 24, 2012
Messages
10,300
The way you describe your stones is *i think* what I would want from my diamond. The dark contrast scares me and I think I am after something that will give an overall brighter look (Im still new to all this but surely that is brilliance right?) I am looking at getting an ACA but I am scared that the dark contrast will not be pleasing to me so I have been trying to find the best combo to increase the kind of effect you are talking about. Would you by chance know the stats for your skinny arrowed stone?
 

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