Color off by 3 grades!! Ouch!

[kellyfish]

Some of you may remember that I purchased an uncertified 2 ct square emerald cut in early 2007 from a local B&M that deals in a lot of EGL stones. It was: 2.0 ct, H, VS1, 7.3 x 7.3. I purchased the stone unmounted, but had it mounted in a temporary setting (a low-rent version of LM''s "classic" setting--I guess you would call it cathedral) and immediately sent the ring to a PS approved appraiser for verification (not one that is usually mentioned around here, though). The stone appraised (in it''s setting) well, though she found strong blue flourescence, which I suspected. She agreed that the stone was an H, VS1 (very clean one, too) & felt that the price I paid was decent.

Long story short, I sent this stone to a trusted jeweler for a custom setting. The jeweler commented on my stone being a "J" & I said "no, it''s an H". He sent me a few pics of my stone next to a GIA H & the color of my stone was much more tinted--so we decided to send it to GIA. SURPRISE! It was graded a K!! With the fluorescence (GIA says med blue) causing a whiteneing effect. I have to add that the jeweler thinks the grade is too harsh & should be a J at minimum.

I can live with the fact that the stone is a K. But, having a brain I am confused at how the appraiser could be so off? Can trying to determine color be that affected by a stone being in a setting combined with the fluorescence? I made the decision to keep the stone based on the appraisal and certainly over-paid by several thousand dollars, though I feel this is really all water under the bridge now .....

 

[kellyfish]

Oh, and I am not so happy with the local B&M either. I thought I was covering my bases by having the immediate appraisal....

 

[aljdewey]

Kelly, I'm sorry for your experience. That said, though, I think this is a good illustration of 'you get what you pay for'.

There is a reason that stones with grading reports cost more. There are times when I'm willing to pay that 'more' (i.e. an engagement stone or other significant purchase stone). There are other times when I'd likely be fine going uncertified (i.e. earrings or small pendant) as long as the financial risk I was taking was limited.

Each type of buying has its place, and each has its benefits depending on how risk-averse each individual buyer might be.

As far as the PS appraiser's results, I'm sure you know that it's always harder to get a solid color appraisal in a set stone than it is unmounted. With the many factors on this appraisal (stone was set, strong blue fluor, your local guy thinks the K is too harsh and would say it's an J), it's not a huge stretch.

Appraisals are subjective, and it's easy for them to differ by a color grade as it is. Then add to the mix the strong blue fluor and the fact it was set, and it's easy to see how it could bump that to potentially 2 grades (which seems to agree with your trusted jeweler).

Bottom line: do you love the stone? If you loved the stone and you were happy with the price paid at the time, don't let it alter your feelings for the stone. Enjoy it, learn a lesson from it (perhaps you are less risk-averse and should stick to graded stones in the future).

 

[aljdewey]

I honestly don''t see why you''re upset with the B&M store.

They sold you a stone with no grading report, and they told you what they understood it to be. Since it has no grading report, I don''t see where you find fault with them. They didn''t represent that this stone would earn a comparable grading from GIA. They sold you an ungraded stone according to what they thought it was, and you agree to buy it on those terms.

Where do you find fault with them?

 

[BigDiamonds]

I''m sorry that you ended up being disappointed in the final grading of your stone. I know that appraisals are not as accurate when the stone is set, but I am little surprised at that much difference.

But like aljdewey said, if you were happy with the stone before, don''t let this change your mind. It obviously fooled a lot of people with its face up appearance, and that is how you look at it on a day to day basis anyway. No one has to know that GIA thinks its a K.

I''m sure you''re disappointed and frustrated, but try not to be too hard on your local B&M. Most of the people in those stores are not gemological grading experts, and this stone is obviously a bit tricky. If you don''t think they were trying to be deceptive, perhaps their knowledge just leaves a bit to be desired.

Try to put it behind you and keep enjoying your stone! It sounds very pretty.

 

[kellyfish]

Well, I hold myself primarily responsible for the entire transaction. I honestly wish I actually did get what I thought I was paying fo in this case!I evidentally did not know enough about diamonds & the way things work to be making such a purchase at the time. I am better educated now, which is a good thing. I guess I knew just enough to be dangerous-kwim? I do, however, think there is a lot of road between H & K--and they must have known their assignment of that letter was a bit of a stretch. I guess live and learn.

 

[kellyfish]

I do like the stone-color and all. I have no plans to say anything to the B&M--just look at it as a lesson learned--especially in the pocketbook. I''ll post pics when the custom job is complete....

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I think you did the only thing you could at the time and that was to get an appraisal. I would ALWAYS assume that uncertified stones are optimistically graded. The person I would be unhappy with is the independent appraiser who you trusted to protect you. On the other hand, since the stone was appraised in a mounting apparently, I guess that let''s that person off the hook, too. At least the flourescence is a bonus to make it appear more white!

 

[DIF]

Kelly, I'm glad you are not too angry. Of course the stone was not graded so buyer beware, and all that.

Was its price correct for a GIA-graded H or a GIA-graded K?

There is a big difference between:
1. what something is represented to be
2. what it is *according to the agreed-to standards of a respected lab*

 

[kellyfish]

I paid $13500 for the stone--which is right on target for a 2ct H, VS1 when you use the PS search tool above. I used this tool at the time and felt like the price was good. The stone was purchased in March '07. The clarity is VS1--so that part is correct.

 

[DIF]

Kelly wrote, "I paid $13500 for the stone--which is right on target when you use the PS search tool above. I used this tool at the time and felt like the price was good. The stone was purchased in March '07. The clarity is VS1--so that part is correct. "

So the price you paid was hat it would have sold for from a PS vendor with a GIA report giving it a K, and medium blue fluorescence?

If so you did very well considering you got a PS price from a B&M - and that H "grade" was a short-lived fantasy.

 

[Steel]

Hi kellyfish,

I am sorry. This sucks.

I am sure you have thought of all of the options (or lack there of), so I will just offer you my best thoughts and shared anger, take one or both.

Keep us [me] informed?

ETA: I would send the 1st appraiser a copy of her report and then the GIA cert. Even if you have no plans for ''revenge'' [joke] against her, she should know that this was an error. The ball so to speak is then in her court... 0.02

 

[kellyfish]

I''m confused--using the PS tool for K''s, Vs1 the diamonds are about $9k ---about $13500 for H, VS1''s. I paid $13500.

 

[kellyfish]

Thanks for your responses! I'm not looking for any recourse--just venting a little! I am going to set the diamond in a beautiful custom setting & enjoy it. And not tell DH anything about the color grade 'cause he'd kill me for overspending.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 12/30/2007 5:26:35 PM
Author: kellyfish
I paid $13500 for the stone--which is right on target for a 2ct H, VS1 when you use the PS search tool above. I used this tool at the time and felt like the price was good. The stone was purchased in March '07. The clarity is VS1--so that part is correct.

I just did the PS search tool above for an emerald cut. Here is the closest I could find to your stone....it's a 2.05 H, VS2 for $14,400.
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/H-VS2-Premium-Cut-Emerald-Diamond-1125757.asp?b=16&a=12&c=77&cid=131

Also note that J/A is one of the less expensive online vendors here, and the PS price is $13,300 (which you wouldn't get if you didn't know about PS).

Considering that you bought from a B&M store (which you must know bears a higher cost than online)......and that your stone was VS1 and not VS2......I'm guessing you probably didn't overpay by much for a J/K VS1. (You noted the appraiser felt the GIA K grading was a bit harsh).

I wouldn't feel too badly about your purchase....it sounds like you did ok.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 12/30/2007 5:38:55 PM
Author: kellyfish
I''m confused--using the PS tool for K''s, Vs1 the diamonds are about $9k ---about $13500 for H, VS1''s. I paid $13500.

Kelly, I suspect you looking up specs for rounds? To find comparable stones, you''d need to specify emeralds in the PS cut search tool.

Using that, I find this below......and it seems to suggest that a 2.05 H VS2 stone runs $13,300 PS price.....if you go to the page for that stone, it''s $14,400 for a non-PS transaction. And that stone is VS2, not VS1.

 

[DIF]

Kelly wrote, "I'm confused--using the PS tool for K's, Vs1 the diamonds are about $9k ---about $13500 for H, VS1's. I paid $13500.
Kelly C."

Oh, that's different - very different!

OUCH!

You could have saved $4,500 if you had bought it from a PS vendor?

Well, live and learn, chalk this one up as a $4,500 tuition bill.
Correct answwer for the Final Exam: Buy from PS vendors, not B&Ms.

 

[jewelerman]

KellyFish,
Im sorry ,but i think there are to many people getting off the hook here in this situation.The difference in color between a H and a k is way to obvious in a 2 carat diamond for a store that deals in diamond jewelry not to know they were assigning an inappropreate color grade to that stone.The store never should have assigned a grading and then used it as part of the selling presentation to intice you into buying it unless they were willing to back it up...if its in writing on the reciept many state laws expect that the customer should recieve that quailty no matter what they paid.You assumed and were lead to believe that you were recieving a certain grade and the GIA proved that verbal or written information incorrect.it is true that grading is subjective but the differance between H and K is not subjective but misrepresentation.Medium Florecence can hide yellow but in a stone this size put next a whiter stone will show the deeper tones.You need to go back to the store armed with this new appraisal and let them know what you found out and ask what they are going to do for you as a customer who trusted their judgement.jewelry stores need to know what they are selling and back up what they tell customers in their sales presentations.They should be held accountable and give you either the quality they represented or some money back so you recieve the great deal they were promising you at time of purchase.

 

[aljdewey]

....

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 12/30/2007 6:16:44 PM
Author: jewelerman
KellyFish,
Im sorry ,but i think there are to many people getting off the hook here in this situation.The difference in color between a H and a k is way to obvious in a 2 carat diamond for a store that deals in diamond jewelry not to know they were assigning an inappropreate color grade to that stone.The store never should have assigned a grading and then used it as part of the selling presentation to intice you into buying it unless they were willing to back it up...if its in writing on the reciept many state laws expect that the customer should recieve that quailty no matter what they paid.You assumed and were lead to believe that you were recieving a certain grade and the GIA proved that verbal or written information incorrect.it is true that grading is subjective but the differance between H and K is not subjective but misrepresentation.Medium Florecence can hide yellow but in a stone this size put next a whiter stone will show the deeper tones.You need to go back to the store armed with this new appraisal and let them know what you found out and ask what they are going to do for you as a customer who trusted their judgement.jewelry stores need to know what they are selling and back up what they tell customers in their sales presentations.They should be held accountable and give you either the quality they represented or some money back so you recieve the great deal they were promising you at time of purchase.

Am I missing something? I didn''t see where Kelly said the seller represented that the stone would earn an H grading from the GIA?

 

[kellyfish]

I was looking up the specs for asschers. The stone is a sq emerald....

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 12/30/2007 6:41:28 PM
Author: kellyfish
I was looking up the specs for asschers. The stone is a sq emerald....

How are you looking those up? With the search by cut tool? Or something else?

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Kelly, did the store give you any kind of written appraisal or receipt where they listed the color of the stone? If they did, I do think you have reason to go back to the store with the GIA cert. If they just said verbally that they thought the stone was around an H color, then I don''t think you have any recourse. If it is in writing, you might. That said, as Alj has said, if the price was in line for a B&M stone with J color, then you really don''t have any problem. The problem is only if you paid for an H and that is in writing.

 

[aljdewey]

Ok, I see a few square cut K, VS1 stones for about 9K....but those are PS prices.

To know what hte real default is, you''d have to know what a B&M store would charge for a 2 ct. K VS1.

 

[kellyfish]

I mean I just used the PS search tool for 2ct asschers --H, VS1 & K VS1. There are some of both.....My stone is a cut-cornered type of square emerald...

 

[strmrdr]

What are the rest of the numbers on the GIA report?
sym/polish grades?
There is a huge range of prices on SE with well cut perfect square ones with smaller tables and reasonable depths carrying a large premium.
If its one of those you cant compare it too the lowest priced ones in the PS search but have to compare it too like cut.

 

[kellyfish]

Storm, the jeweler e-mailed me only part of the initial fax info he got from GIA. This is a pretty stone and a look that I like, but it is not a Royal Asscher type with a lot of depth, deep corners and a really high crown. It is a larger-tabled one & I believe it is a bright-drop style.

From what I have from the initial GIA (emailed to me by the jeweler)
2.0 ct
depth 63.4%
table 66 %
girdle thin-med
polish excellent
clarity VS-1
color K
Fluor Med Blue

Additional info from the independent appraiser:
symmetry excellent
cutlet none
crown angle 34.0

I doubt it is one of the more expensive square emeralds due to larger table, etc.....

 

[kellyfish]

I do have an appraisal from the store that lists it as an H.

 

[hairgirl95]

Okay, I realize that I don''t have anywhere near the experience of many people on this board. But I wanted to throw in my 2 cents based on what I have learned from other posters and my own personal experience. I think some of you are being a little harsh and overly critical (DIF). Getting nasty and condescending doesn''t get anyone anywhere. The problem here is really simple. An uncerted diamond was purchased. A "statement" was made as to the color and clarity. Whether or not the statement was ACCURATE or NOT is really not Kellyfish''s fault. She did her homework, researched the price here for an H Vs1 and it was comparable to what the jeweler was asking for it. I would have done the EXACT same thing if I were in her shoes. There are no 100% guarantees even if the stone does have a GIA cert to go with it. The whole grading process is SUBJECTIVE. Yes, the stone is not an H. Is it really a K?? Or is it more a J? That is up to the subjective graders opinion. If kellyfish has documentation from the original sale stating they represented it as H, I would go back and have a little chat with the jeweler. If it was intentional, you should have some recourse. If it was lack of education on the jewelry stores part, then they need to educate a little better. kellyfish made a decision based on the CURRENT facts she had when the stone was purchased. To sit and chastize her about a $4500 "tuition" is in my opinion just plain rude. I hope you DIF are never in a position where you get slighted by someone. I wonder how you would feel when someone called your error an expensive TUITION BILL. Kellyfish, I am really sorry for what happened. I hope you get some resolution, and if you don''t pursue this with the original jeweler, wear that stone and enjoy it. For the negative one responding on here, I hope you don''t encounter any bad luck and want us to feel bad for you. Sorry if this offends anyone here. I just felt bad for those trying to help this situation when others were sucking the life right out of it.

 

[elmo]

For what it's worth - $13500 is 29 back for H-VS1, and 25 over for K-VS1. I haven't shopped ECs but my hunch is that would be a "normal" / expected "internet" price from a Pricescope vendor for a "good" quality H-VS1 EC and a "normal" / expected "retail" price from a b&m for a similar K-VS1.

I agree with steel, jewelerman, and hairgirl - I'd see what the original receipt says and talk with the seller about what recourse might be available.