Clarity v Colour

[chizzy1982]

My boyfriend and I are doing some research into rings before taking the plunge and buying one and would appreciate some advice on clarity and colour.
Having no diamond experience myself (or even owning one!) is there really much difference between a D and F diamond. Also is there again much between VVS1/VVS2 and VS1/VS2 apart from the price.

Many thanks for any help

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Once you get to the VS1 level, you probably cannot see inclusions with a 10 power loupe, so I think that is a great level for someone who likes high clarity without overpaying for VVS. I did get VS1 for my ring stone but went to VS2 for my earring stones. That is just my personal preference, though, as many girls here go to SI1 and SI2 in well cut stones to be able to go to larger size diamonds. I would certainly consider F-G in ideal cut stones because they will face up very white. In fact, my earring stones are ideal cut H color, and they appear very white.

The very best color and clarity information (and photos) I have seen is here:

http://www.goodoldgold.com/4Cs/

 

[belle]

Date: 11/9/2007 11:25:36 AM
Author:chizzy1982
My boyfriend and I are doing some research into rings before taking the plunge and buying one and would appreciate some advice on clarity and colour.

Having no diamond experience myself (or even owning one!) is there really much difference between a D and F diamond. Also is there again much between VVS1/VVS2 and VS1/VS2 apart from the price.


Many thanks for any help

in properly graded stones of the same quality, no there is no obvious difference, especially when mounted. actually diamonds are only guaranteed to be within two color grades because grading is so subjective. the extremely high color/clarity combos are best appreciated by those who desire them for religious or personal reasons.

 

[chrono]

Talking well cut stones here:
You''d be hard pressed to tell apart a D and an F when they are set.
VVS1/2 and VS1 all look the same to the naked eye. Some VS2 inclusions can be seen from the side view but very few.

Don''t forget that a few tiny well placed birthmarks actually make it easier to identify your stone when you drop it off at the jeweller''s for cleaning and resizing or remounts.

 

[diagem]

Date: 11/9/2007 11:31:26 AM
Author: diamondseeker2006
Once you get to the VS1 level, you probably cannot see inclusions with a 10 power loupe, so I think that is a great level for someone who likes high clarity without overpaying for VVS. I did get VS1 for my ring stone but went to VS2 for my earring stones. That is just my personal preference, though, as many girls here go to SI1 and SI2 in well cut stones to be able to go to larger size diamonds. I would certainly consider F-G in ideal cut stones because they will face up very white. In fact, my earring stones are ideal cut H color, and they appear very white.

The very best color and clarity information (and photos) I have seen is here:

http://www.goodoldgold.com/4Cs/

What do you mean

???

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 11/9/2007 12:30:52 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 11/9/2007 11:31:26 AM
Author: diamondseeker2006
Once you get to the VS1 level, you probably cannot see inclusions with a 10 power loupe, so I think that is a great level for someone who likes high clarity without overpaying for VVS. I did get VS1 for my ring stone but went to VS2 for my earring stones. That is just my personal preference, though, as many girls here go to SI1 and SI2 in well cut stones to be able to go to larger size diamonds. I would certainly consider F-G in ideal cut stones because they will face up very white. In fact, my earring stones are ideal cut H color, and they appear very white.

The very best color and clarity information (and photos) I have seen is here:

http://www.goodoldgold.com/4Cs/

What do you mean

???

"VS is the abbreviation for Very small inclusions. VS stones contain minor inclusions ranging from difficult (VS1) to somewhat easy (VS2) for a skilled grader to locate under 10x. " http://www.goodoldgold.com/4Cs/Clarity/VS/

So if VS1 inclusions are difficult for a skilled grader to locate under 10x magnification, it certainly may be hard for a novice to locate VS1 inclusions under 10x. I can''t see a thing in my VS1 with a loupe.

 

[diagem]

Date: 11/9/2007 12:47:27 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006

Date: 11/9/2007 12:30:52 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 11/9/2007 11:31:26 AM
Author: diamondseeker2006
Once you get to the VS1 level, you probably cannot see inclusions with a 10 power loupe, so I think that is a great level for someone who likes high clarity without overpaying for VVS. I did get VS1 for my ring stone but went to VS2 for my earring stones. That is just my personal preference, though, as many girls here go to SI1 and SI2 in well cut stones to be able to go to larger size diamonds. I would certainly consider F-G in ideal cut stones because they will face up very white. In fact, my earring stones are ideal cut H color, and they appear very white.

The very best color and clarity information (and photos) I have seen is here:

http://www.goodoldgold.com/4Cs/

What do you mean

???

''VS is the abbreviation for Very small inclusions. VS stones contain minor inclusions ranging from difficult (VS1) to somewhat easy (VS2) for a skilled grader to locate under 10x. '' http://www.goodoldgold.com/4Cs/Clarity/VS/

So if VS1 inclusions are difficult for a skilled grader to locate under 10x magnification, it certainly may be hard for a novice to locate VS1 inclusions under 10x. I can''t see a thing in my VS1 with a loupe.

I would agree a VS1 is difficult for a "novice" to locate...

A skilled grader would or should have no problem what-so-ever locating a VS1 (type) inclusion..., loose or mounted (unless hidden purposely).
Some "smart" VS1 inclusions are a bit more tricky to locate..., but should be located with no problem by any skilled grader.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

There isn''t much difference between a D and an F to most people. The only way to know for sure, however, is to look at well-cut diamonds in real life, not online. Also, are you talking round diamonds? They "mask" color better than fancy shapes.

FWIW, I recently bought an E color and compared it to my G and I can definetly tell the difference! The G stone may lean more toward an H though. . . both are certified but by different labs (the E is AGS and the G is GIA). The E is amazingly icy white and I love it, but wouldn''t buy another diamond so high up on the color scale unless I happened upon the perfect stone. (I''d be happy with another G.)

VS2 or SI1s (eye clean) are the best for the dollar. My stud earrings are F SI1 and they''re ideal cut and look wonderful! I read that is the best color/clarity combo for the dollar.

 

[FireGoddess]

DiaGem, we''re not talking skilled graders here, we''re talking about the consumer. I can''t even find my VS2 inclusions with the loupe, and I care about diamonds more than most people I know IRL, yanno?

You''d be hard pressed to tell the diff between D and F mounted...and I''d go to VS2 in a heartbeat instead of paying more for VVS clarity in a stone.

 

[diagem]

Date: 11/9/2007 1:53:09 PM
Author: FireGoddess
DiaGem, we''re not talking skilled graders here, we''re talking about the consumer. I can''t even find my VS2 inclusions with the loupe, and I care about diamonds more than most people I know IRL, yanno?

You''d be hard pressed to tell the diff between D and F mounted...and I''d go to VS2 in a heartbeat instead of paying more for VVS clarity in a stone.

 

[BriBee]

One thing interesting about color that should be noted is that it is graded by placing the diamond table down and looking at it through the side. So, there are stones out there (and many on PS) that have technically low color grades but face up very white. I think I've seen some K, L, and M stones on here that look gorgeous (I'll try to find links).
However, that being said, I am one of those people that went for a lower clarity (SI2) in order to get better color and size. My stone is an E and it's very white. Under a loupe I can see the inclusions fairly easily, but due to their location, it's eye-clean in the setting. Also, there's a difference between SI's that might have 1 or 2 big inclusions that are easy to see vs. many smaller ones that make the stone "eye-clean" mine is the latter.

ETA: here is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. I LOVE LOVE LOVE this ring!!!!

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-new-pear-bling.69328/

I think this one has blue fluorescence which also can make a difference.

 

[FireGoddess]

Date: 11/9/2007 1:57:36 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 11/9/2007 1:53:09 PM
Author: FireGoddess
DiaGem, we''re not talking skilled graders here, we''re talking about the consumer. I can''t even find my VS2 inclusions with the loupe, and I care about diamonds more than most people I know IRL, yanno?

You''d be hard pressed to tell the diff between D and F mounted...and I''d go to VS2 in a heartbeat instead of paying more for VVS clarity in a stone.

Are you disparaging my poor inclusion-finding abilities?

 

[diagem]

Date: 11/9/2007 2:03:49 PM
Author: FireGoddess

Date: 11/9/2007 1:57:36 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 11/9/2007 1:53:09 PM
Author: FireGoddess
DiaGem, we''re not talking skilled graders here, we''re talking about the consumer. I can''t even find my VS2 inclusions with the loupe, and I care about diamonds more than most people I know IRL, yanno?

You''d be hard pressed to tell the diff between D and F mounted...and I''d go to VS2 in a heartbeat instead of paying more for VVS clarity in a stone.

Are you disparaging my poor inclusion-finding abilities?

Not at all...

I was just commenting on the statement on the ''GOG'' website example used above...

"...VS stones contain minor inclusions ranging from difficult (VS1) to somewhat easy (VS2) for a skilled grader to locate under 10x..."

I dont agree it is difficult for a skilled grader to locate VS1''s with a 10X loupe

I would totally agree it would be difficult for a skilled grader to locate VVS2-1''s using only a 10x loupe...

..., difficult but do-able

 

[chizzy1982]

Thanks everyone your advice has been really useful. I had no idea there really wasn''t that much difference to the untrained eye - I think we can definatly compromise to get the best deal for our budget.

Just one more quick question from the novice......... Do certain jewellers only use diamonds of a "set" quality thus potentially would not give me the best deal for our money e.g Cartier

I never realised buying a diamond was so technical!!!

 

[Independent Gal]

Yes, an F, VS2 diamond will be lovely! I have an E, SI1, and honestly? It takes me age to find the feather in my diamond WITH my loupe! There is no way a normal person would EVER see it without. So, it looks exactly as it would, to the naked eye, if it were flawless.

And I also like the idea that inclusions give the diamond it's 'secret personality'. I don't think I would want a flawless diamond. It's kind of creepy in a way. Plus, think about the symbolism for your marriage! Isn't the idea that you can have flaws but still be breathtakingly beautiful kind of a nice idea?

In terms of Cartier, any diamond you buy from a name brand dealer like that is likely going to cost you around DOUBLE what you'd pay from an internet vendor. So, you have to decide if it's worth it to you. But you'll get a bigger, more beautiful stone if you buy online, or, et a local dealer to price match a deal available on line (Cartier most certainly would NOT do that).

If you like the design, keep an eye on signedpieces.com They sell pre-owned designer pieces at a substantial discount. I'm a regular customer of their's and can vouch for their excellent service. I've bought Tiffany pieces from them, and my FI bought my Bulgari e-ring from them too. They polish everything up so you would never ever know anyone had owned it before you.

One more thing, no one has mentioned CUT because you didn't ask about it. But I think we all agree on here that the CUT of the stone (as in, the proportions, not the shape) is the single most important factor in making the diamond beautiful. Read some of the tutorials on here to learn more about that.

Good luck and have fun!

 

[BriBee]

And just to add a little to what Independant Gal said, if you go to the Tiffany website, it lists all kinds of info about the Tiffany quality and how they reject stones that don't meet their standards etc.... I'm pretty sure that according to the site they will only accept stones of G color or higher, and VS2 clarity or higher (i might be a little off, but this should be close). Considering this, if you went to Tiffany and found an F, VS1 for example, it would certainly meet the "Tiffany standard" and yet you could find the same specs, all things being equal or better, at one of the PS vendors and pay hlaf the price.

 

[Kay]

Independent Gal is right, an excellent cut is the most important factor. Of the ranges you listed, you really do not need to go above F, VS2 to have a gorgeous stone. I am very color sensitive and can see a slight difference between a D and an F, but would be perfectly happy owning an F. Both face up very white, but when you put them side-by-side (which will almost never happen once you are wearing the ring) the D will look just a bit crisper and icier white. We bought a D, SI-1 (eye clean) for my ring because this was the stone that "spoke" to me, but I would have been happy with an E or F. I wouldn''t want to pay for higher clarity than VS2, because I cannot see the differece between VVS1 and VS2 when I am wearing the diamond, so I figured why pay for what I (and other people) can''t see. Both here on PS and IRL, I have seen several SI-1 and SI-2 stones that are eye-clean (i.e., you can''t see the inclusions w/o magnification). My pet rock has 3 tiny dots that are visible with a loupe, so I can easily verify it is my stone when I pick it up at the jewelers after a polishing (like a diamond fingerprint).

By the way, people on PS love to help others shop for diamonds, so if you want to post your budget and the size range you are considering, people will post links to stones they think look good. Even if you prefer to shop offline, it gives you an idea of prices so you don''t overpay too much when you go to look in local stores.

 

[chizzy1982]

Thanks everyone that as been very helpful

Kay - The budget is around $16000 (£8000 sterling - I''m british). We have seen and fallen in love with the 1895 solitiare with pave setting however having done a bit of research it dosn''t look like we will get the best deal. I''m not looking for anything to big - around the 0.9 ct mark and, without sounding too silly, i really want it to sparkle. Having looked at a lot of rings we have seen nothing which really comes close to the Cartier. Am i being really unrealistic for our budget? Is it possible Cartier would allow a diamond independent of their own stock to be put into one of theri settings?

Aarrghhhh - its all so confusing!!!

 

[BriBee]

I''m no expert, and I don''t know the answer as to whether you could set a non-Cartier diamond into their setting, but you could get a beautiful .9 ct and setting for probably half of your budget (going by the US amt) or maybe less, especially if you use the vendors here on PS. There are many talented designers on this board that could replicate something close to the 1895 for you.

 

[Kaleigh]

Date: 11/9/2007 5:31:35 PM
Author: chizzy1982
Thanks everyone that as been very helpful

Kay - The budget is around $16000 (£8000 sterling - I''m british). We have seen and fallen in love with the 1895 solitiare with pave setting however having done a bit of research it dosn''t look like we will get the best deal. I''m not looking for anything to big - around the 0.9 ct mark and, without sounding too silly, i really want it to sparkle. Having looked at a lot of rings we have seen nothing which really comes close to the Cartier. Am i being really unrealistic for our budget? Is it possible Cartier would allow a diamond independent of their own stock to be put into one of theri settings?

Aarrghhhh - its all so confusing!!!

No Cartier won''t allow you to put your own stone in their settings. You have a great budget, does it have to be Cartier??

 

[chizzy1982]

It doesn''t neccesarily have to be Cartier but we have found nothing in that style which we "feel the same about"

 

[Kay]

Date: 11/9/2007 5:31:35 PM
Author: chizzy1982
Thanks everyone that as been very helpful

Kay - The budget is around $16000 (£8000 sterling - I''m british). We have seen and fallen in love with the 1895 solitiare with pave setting however having done a bit of research it dosn''t look like we will get the best deal. I''m not looking for anything to big - around the 0.9 ct mark and, without sounding too silly, i really want it to sparkle. Having looked at a lot of rings we have seen nothing which really comes close to the Cartier. Am i being really unrealistic for our budget? Is it possible Cartier would allow a diamond independent of their own stock to be put into one of theri settings?

Aarrghhhh - its all so confusing!!!

No, you won''t get the best deal from Cartier. I am not an expert, but I do not think they will set diamonds that are not their own unless it is a truly extraordinary stone (rare fancy color, extraordinary size, etc. -- something they couldn''t supply even if you were willing to pay their mark-up).

0.9 ct is actually a hard size to find. There is a lot more selection just past the one carat mark.
Here is a 0.902 ct G VVS2 Round Ideal Cut for $4,625: http://www.whiteflash.com/round_ideal_cut/Round-Ideal-Cut-cut-diamond-40944.htm
Here''s a 0.847 ct D SI1 Round Ideal Cut for $3,710: http://www.whiteflash.com/round_ideal_cut/Round-Ideal-Cut-cut-diamond-395173.htm
0.9ct F VS2 Round H&A for $5,806: http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/3090/
0.9ct E VS2 Round H&A for $5,974: http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/3642/
0.93ct D VS1 Round H&A for $7,134: http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/3727/
1.01 ct D VS2 Round Ideal Cut for $7,676: http://www.whiteflash.com/round_ideal_cut/Round-Ideal-Cut-cut-diamond-155612.htm
1.048 ct E SI2 A Cut Above (Super Ideal) H&A for $6,115: http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-49292.htm


You could have a fabulous custom setting made and still be well below $16,000, and probably have a better cut (hence better performing) diamond than if you bought at Cartier. Of course, you must also take into account import taxes in having a stone sent from the US to England. No one can exactly duplicate the Cartier setting because of copyright law, but you could get something close with your own "tweaks." Leon Mege makes gorgeous custom settings, as do others recommended here. Leon is really known for his pave work and fabulous prongs -- he could make a gorgeous rendition of the 1895 setting. Here''s some eye candy: http://www.artofplatinum.com/

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 11/9/2007 2:35:21 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 11/9/2007 2:03:49 PM
Author: FireGoddess

Date: 11/9/2007 1:57:36 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 11/9/2007 1:53:09 PM
Author: FireGoddess
DiaGem, we''re not talking skilled graders here, we''re talking about the consumer. I can''t even find my VS2 inclusions with the loupe, and I care about diamonds more than most people I know IRL, yanno?

You''d be hard pressed to tell the diff between D and F mounted...and I''d go to VS2 in a heartbeat instead of paying more for VVS clarity in a stone.

Are you disparaging my poor inclusion-finding abilities?

Not at all...

I was just commenting on the statement on the ''GOG'' website example used above...

''...VS stones contain minor inclusions ranging from difficult (VS1) to somewhat easy (VS2) for a skilled grader to locate under 10x...''

I dont agree it is difficult for a skilled grader to locate VS1''s with a 10X loupe

I would totally agree it would be difficult for a skilled grader to locate VVS2-1''s using only a 10x loupe...

..., difficult but do-able

The same statement is easily found on the GIA website:

"Very Slightly Included (VS1 and VS2): contain minor inclusions ranging from difficult (VS1) to somewhat easy (VS2) for a trained grader to see under 10X."

http://www.gia.edu/library/4286/6278/faq_detail_page.cfm

 

[gontama]

Date: 11/9/2007 6:14:42 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006

Date: 11/9/2007 2:35:21 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 11/9/2007 2:03:49 PM
Author: FireGoddess

Date: 11/9/2007 1:57:36 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 11/9/2007 1:53:09 PM
Author: FireGoddess
DiaGem, we''re not talking skilled graders here, we''re talking about the consumer. I can''t even find my VS2 inclusions with the loupe, and I care about diamonds more than most people I know IRL, yanno?

You''d be hard pressed to tell the diff between D and F mounted...and I''d go to VS2 in a heartbeat instead of paying more for VVS clarity in a stone.

Are you disparaging my poor inclusion-finding abilities?

Not at all...

I was just commenting on the statement on the ''GOG'' website example used above...

''...VS stones contain minor inclusions ranging from difficult (VS1) to somewhat easy (VS2) for a skilled grader to locate under 10x...''

I dont agree it is difficult for a skilled grader to locate VS1''s with a 10X loupe

I would totally agree it would be difficult for a skilled grader to locate VVS2-1''s using only a 10x loupe...

..., difficult but do-able

The same statement is easily found on the GIA website:

''Very Slightly Included (VS1 and VS2): contain minor inclusions ranging from difficult (VS1) to somewhat easy (VS2) for a trained grader to see under 10X.''

http://www.gia.edu/library/4286/6278/faq_detail_page.cfm

It is possible for an experienced GG to take more than 20 - 30 seconds to locate a VS1 inclusion with 10x magnification. It is also possible for an experienced grader to want the plotting from a grading report to help locate and confirm a VS1 inclusion. These are VS1 inclusions I would consider to be "difficult" to see under 10X magnification by trained eye. I do not consider them to be "somewhat easy" to be seen by a trained eye. Without definition of "difficult", the above guideline seems appropriate from my experience. If not "diffcult", I would expect a grader to locate any VS1 inclusion in 10 seconds with 10X magnification.

 

[diagem]

Date: 11/9/2007 6:14:42 PM

Author: diamondseeker2006



The same statement is easily found on the GIA website:

''Very Slightly Included (VS1 and VS2): contain minor inclusions ranging from difficult (VS1) to somewhat easy (VS2) for a trained grader to see under 10X.''

http://www.gia.edu/library/4286/6278/faq_detail_page.cfm

Oops..., yes, I completely forgot GIA trained graders had (on a few occasions

) difficulties spotting VS1''s...

 

[diagem]

Date: 11/9/2007 7:07:17 PM
Author: gontama

It is possible for an experienced GG to take more than 20 - 30 seconds to locate a VS1 inclusion with 10x magnification. It is also possible for an experienced grader to want the plotting from a grading report to help locate and confirm a VS1 inclusion. These are VS1 inclusions I would consider to be ''difficult'' to see under 10X magnification by trained eye. I do not consider them to be ''somewhat easy'' to be seen by a trained eye. Without definition of ''difficult'', the above guideline seems appropriate from my experience. If not ''diffcult'', I would expect a grader to locate any VS1 inclusion in 10 seconds with 10X magnification.

gontama..., you should start a new competition called the Diamond grading Olympics...

Hey..., this is called cheating...

But its always fun reading your comments

 

[gontama]

Date: 11/10/2007 2:41:48 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 11/9/2007 7:07:17 PM
Author: gontama

It is possible for an experienced GG to take more than 20 - 30 seconds to locate a VS1 inclusion with 10x magnification. It is also possible for an experienced grader to want the plotting from a grading report to help locate and confirm a VS1 inclusion. These are VS1 inclusions I would consider to be ''difficult'' to see under 10X magnification by trained eye. I do not consider them to be ''somewhat easy'' to be seen by a trained eye. Without definition of ''difficult'', the above guideline seems appropriate from my experience. If not ''diffcult'', I would expect a grader to locate any VS1 inclusion in 10 seconds with 10X magnification.

gontama..., you should start a new competition called the Diamond grading Olympics...

Hey..., this is called cheating...

But its always fun reading your comments

Diagem - they are what I experienced. There will be many VS1 inclusions that a grader can locate pretty easily, and I have no doubt she will eventually find every VS1 inclusion. But without the plotting, I think she has to seriously look at the stone with loupe to locate the inclusions. It "can" take some time. I do not know the exact definitions (difficult) lab grading is based upon. But it seems fair/safe to say even an experienced grader may not be able to instantly find them. That is just my definition/interpretation of "difficult". Not impossible at all, I know. It is often hard for me to see VS1 with loupe even if I know where they should be by the plotting. VS2 .. relatively easier. Thank you for having fun with my posts.

 

[Independent Gal]

Here's an idea: Call Cartier in New York City and ask them for a price quote on the ring you want. DON'T tell them you're in the UK. I'd be willing to bet, judging by what others on here have said, that the price for the same ring at Cartier in NYC will be SUBSTANTIALLY lower than in London, especially given the sorry state of the US$ (price in the NYC store stays the same as it was 3 months ago, but dollar devalues significantly = huge extra discount for you).

I'd bet it's so much lower, that you could fly to NYC for the weekend (which only costs about 250-300 pounds-ish in the winter... maybe less?) and buy the ring there and come out a 1000 quid or so ahead even AFTER the cost of the flights. Plus, free weekend in NYC!!

Just a thought....

Worth checking into?

Oh yeah, plus, probably no taxes to pay.

 

[chizzy1982]

Independant Girl - That is what we Brits call an "ingenious idea"!!

And my boyfriend loves it! Just a quick question before we call - I know the ring size system is differnt in the US than in the UK I am an "M" size but i don''t know what that is in US sizes.....any hints?