clarity....important?

[blondie]

Hi diamond nuts!

I am ''new'' to this whole discussion! I am looking to replace the stone on my engagement ring, which is a fairly small but beautiful 0.5 carat (D, VS2) to a 1.5 carat! My husband said we would change it when he got promotion, blah blah.... so what I need to know from you intelligent guys is whether you would choose size over clartiy, which is my intention I think!
Anyway, I am actually English and coming to NY in January so am currently looking at a couple of places to visit, as you guys have much better deals over there than we do, and the dollar is very weak compared to our British pound at the moment! So....this is my main choice:

I want a G/H colour premium cut but should I go for the 1.5 SI1 or the 1.7 SI2.....both are around the $9000 mark?

What do you think?

 

[valeria101]

How important is the grade on the cert... it's up to you. As long as there is any inclusion in the stone (and there always is something), I guess the questions is "does it show" and "does it look bad" ? There is hardly any other way to answer that without seeing the stones. Some sellers present magnified pictures to show exactly that - great, but the pics show more than the stones in person, IMO. The clarity plot on the lab report also helps and that should be relatively easy to obtain ( a scan of the cert will do, faxed copies not really though).

The SI2 could look cleaner than the particular SI1 cited. There is no telling by grade alone.

What is "premium cut" ? There is no general standard for this name-calling... so to each shop it's own

 

[blondie]

Thanks Valeria

So would you then recommend that I go to see the stones before buying online? I think that is probably wise from what you have said! They are both GIA cert and ''premium''. I take it that means that their proportions are better than average....do you know the ''ideal'' proportions for cut? I did read them somewhere but have forgotten now!

 

[valeria101]

GIA does not grade cut... so "premium" cut is defined by the seller. So is the premium on the "premium" cut of course... yet another story.

I would love to give you a short list of "Ideal" numbers, but there is no way I can tell which standard you've seen before. There is a bunch of them!

The "ideal" cut story is rather long. It seems that the most common pretense about ideal cut rounds (regardless of source and exact specifications) is that they are more brilliant, brighter, sparkly... just better light return by any other name.

Sadly, this is where complication starts: it takes a rather detailed description of the diamond to predict it's light return. GIA's table and depth numbers are not enough (so this Lab is making new standards based on much more detail right now), AGS reports add crown and pavilion angles (quite a bit better - at least now there is enough to talk about) and then... it takes some more grading using the stone, not just numbers, to tell the last bit of detail.

It is everyone's guess what level of detail is "too much", from the AGS-style report to grading Harts and Arrows and what not.

Using table, depth, crown and pavilion numbers, there are two cut-grading tools talked about around here: the HCA and AGA's. Both can be fond on top on tis page under "Tools". The standard proportions of the AGS0 cut grade (yet another standard) are cited in the tutorial and appear on the HCA chart. However, AGS is revising this standard now, so... better be that the respective diamonds pass some sort of test in person. Numbers are good for starters, but always debatable

Can the seller provide things like Sarin report or Ideal Scope photos ?

 

[solange]

Do you have a jeweler and some stones already selected? If you have a reliable vendor, then stick with him. However, you should take the excellent tutorials both on this site and various others as to what makes an Ideal cut. I do not know if premium is a specific designation. I think you really want Ideal.
If you do not have a vendor selected, there are several excellent ones in Manhattan listed above under vendors:Engagement rings Direct, Diamonds Direct, Diamonds by Lauren and GOG(located In Long Island, about 45 minutes from Manhattan by car or train) Make certain that any dealer will give you a Sarin, Idealscope Image and other information.

Then if you buy, you should take it to one of the appraisers listed above under resources. Do not take it to an appraiser who also sells diamonds or does not have the proper equipment. The ones above do.

The Diamond District is very hard to navigate and there are many dealers who either do not carry quality merchandise or are terribly overpriced. Make sure you get a Sarin or OGI report and a certificate, preferably GIA or AGS with the stone.

As to Si stones, I recently bought a large SI 2 stone from one of the Pricescope vendors, Whiteflash, but they are in Texas. I bought on the internet and had it sent to a Manhattan appraiser where I could see it before I paid. SI stones vary and it depends upon where the imperfections are and whether they affect the durability or clarity of the stone--such as a large cloud.

My SI2 is completely eye clean from all angles and, although I can easily see the imperfections with a 10 power loupe, I cannot find them with the naked eye although I know where they are located. Since you are obviously going to see the stones in person, have the vendor show you where they are and if you can see them without a loupe. Some people do not mind a small barely visible imperfection or one that can be covered by a prong. Others will obsess over it.

You get a lot more for your money with SI stones providing that the inclusions are not visible or are barely visible and will not bother you.

Good luck and have a great trip. Feel free to post here if you need additional information about a stone. There are many experts(I am not one of them) who are very generous with their time and will be very helpful in finding the right stone if you have not already done so.

 

[valeria101]

Long story short:

This looks like a happy H/SI2 camper to me: the few scattered feathers should get lost completely in person, once they hide this well in a relatively huge picture (link). GIA's Ex-Ex finish grades do not sound bad either, especially with decent H&A symmetry present (as much as the image shows).

#2. There is yet another "ideal" posted in the range of size, color, clarity and price you mention: THIS AGS cert, different inclusion pattern (Actually, they look curious both on the plot and Ideal Scope and I would love to know what those are). No pictures in normal lighting though.

Since there is no free lunch, as they say... the extra cut grading costs something. You may find even more leeway with AGS0 cut diamonds that do not come with more detail about Harts and Arrows quality or brilliance. The stone WF sources for Solange was one like that, and turned out spectacular - plain to see

A few dozen diamonds (1.5-1.7cts, G/H, SI2-2, AGS certified, below 10k) show up on a search here. Among SI graded diamonds, those with very visible inclusions get discounted... but there is no way to tell if the best bargain on the list was actually discounted for clarity or what not. Prices vary quite a bit between sellers, so it's always safer to obtain at leats a copy of the report before callin diamonds in.

Among the respective dozens, these sound appealing:

1.7 cts H Si2

and

1.5 G VS1 Just in case those inclusions turn back to hount you. This is not as hot cut, but still made it on the "expert" list for decent proportions...

Much easier to talk with this sort of detail on the table. It seems the online sellers are more adept at providing pictures (those are rather hard to make, actually), but obtaining the relevant numbers should be straightforward. Just ask for a "Sarin report".

Hope the 0.2 helps.

 

[solange]

Valeria
Thank you for the nice comment about my Whiteflash ring. I wanted to transfer one of the pictures from my thread here to show what an Ideal cut large none hearts and arrows looks like but I can't figure out how to do it. I should get a better picture anyhow because the pattern is not scattered and you do see a pattern of arrows in the center of the stone.

 

[Jennifer5973]

I have an Si2 and love it. In my opinion, clarity is one of the least important factors in a diamond, especially if it is well cut. However, like any aspect of a diamond''s appearance, beauty is in the eye of the beholder--some people are sensitive to clarity and need a very clean stone.

If you are not super sensisitve, then an SI stone will allow you to get maximum size and cut quality (+ color) at a better value. I believe paying for VS1 and above clarities is paying for something no one will ever see (but you will know--and herein lies the personal question you must ask yourself about what''s important to you).

Dancing Fire, another member of the forum, coined an exceptionally insightful phrase earlier this year--"Mind clean." often, an "eye clean" stone is just that--totally clean but to the owner/wearer it must be mind clean as well. And only the individual can decide this for herself.

 

[Lord Summerisle]

The referance to ''Premium'' cut seems to have confused a few of you guys over there on the other side of the pond.

I wonder if this has come from the same place as i heard about ''premium'' cuts.

There is a london based net diamond seller - Cool Diamonds.com who give you the option of either cut grade of ''good'' or ''premium''

Although they don’t give you the option to view what diamond exactly you’ll get.

Also, it seems, having talked to a few B&M stores, and looking around at the GB based Internet sellers, AGS triple ideals, AGS 000s or H&As are virtually unheard of.

As are diamonds with accompanying Ideal Scope images, Sarin reports etc.

Your’re spoilt over here.

 

[Regular Guy]

Sorry to take the lazy man's approach; I am interested in this topic...but am lifting a note I made on Thursday, and bringing it right here, where it seems apropo...

Ana particularly, (and anyone of course)...with some frequency, you'll make reference to what is sometimes called the "clarity plot.."

To a certain extent, I think this idea may have been referenced in the study done by Garry, Leonid, Dave et al, especially perhaps in an earlier version of it, but currently seen here, where a comparison between labs is done on the use of clarity plots, and variance is indicated, showing GIA provides relatively less detail on this. Basically -- my question and thought -- given the renewed vital recognition of the value and place of cut with respect to diamonds...I kinda thought that plotting inclusions can be going the way of the slide rule, relatively...and so appropriately, giving appraisers new and more valid things to be attending to. After all, and especially: a) with VS stones having these not visible to the naked eye, and b) with GIA and others having a standard practice of laser inscribing stones, if the original function tended towards simply identifying the stone, that function becomes reduced. Alternately, if there is substantive concern about actually seeing the inclusion itself, how then to see what VS means altogether.

Alternately, I may be dazed and confused. Is this a talking point or not.

 

[blondie]

WOW! You guys are fantastic....really helpful information! Just going back to the whole ''diamond distrct thing'' ! I am definitely going to have a good look around, but my actual information and the stones I referenced are from nydex and diamondscope. Has anyone heard or used these companies before and if so, what is your opinion? Are there better? Thanks again x