Clarification please…………...

[Monnyjay]

Is there such a thing as an AGS double ideal?

 

[Lorelei]

Is there such a thing as an AGS double ideal?

Hi Monny!

Maybe you are thinking of AGS Triple Ideal? If so, this link explains it, this is something that has come up quite a bit over the years as there has been some confusion, I hope this helps!

http://www.whiteflash.com/about-diamonds/diamond-education/what-is-an-ags-000.htm

 

[John P]

Is there such a thing as an AGS double ideal?

If the diamond has two 0s instead of three it might be called a double-ideal.

If you have Cut Grade 0, Symmetry 0, Polish 1:

It's possible to have a diamond crystal that simply won't take the "ideal" level of polish due to the way it grew in nature. Although they are nearly 10X harder than any other natural substance, diamonds have harder and softer spots. Depending on growth, some crystals only polish in one direction, and that may limit the ability to put that "ideal" polish on every facet.

If you have Cut Grade 0, Symmetry 1, Polish 0:

In most cases cutters of the finest-makes will achieve ideal symmetry as a result of care in the process. But there are some circumstances where a diamond gets EX (1) instead of Ideal (0) symmetry. This might be due to a natural or surface feature disturbing a facet-line, some aberration between crown and pavilion alignment or something associated with facet meet-points. This is more case-by-case and, personally, I scrutinize this a bit more than EX (1) polish, out of curiosity to learn what the planner and polishers were thinking in the process.

The good news? EX (1) in either Symmetry or Polish are completely indistinguishable to the eye from Ideal (0) in those categories. That typically means the client gets a slight discount for something that is completely invisible.

By the way: If you have Cut Grade 1 with Symmetry 0, Polish 0, that's a different animal and needs more investigation.

 

[Lorelei]

Fantastic info, thanks Sir John!

 

[OoohShiny]

Fantastic info, thanks Sir John!

+1!

 

[John P]

Fantastic info, thanks Sir John!

+1!

Tip of the hat.

 

[diagem]

Is there such a thing as an AGS double ideal?

The good news? EX (1) in either Symmetry or Polish are completely indistinguishable to the eye from Ideal (0) in those categories. That typically means the client gets a slight discount for something that is completely invisible.

Hi John,
I would agree with you on the above statement on most cases "in those categories" especially if we are talking about regular consumers who seek guidance to Diamond purchasing.

But since we never simply talk "most cases" without involving "the best" in those categories I would like to add and hope you agree...

The more precise the three dimensional symmetry is cut too, the more precise uniformity in the play of light thus causing it to be distinguishable to the discerned eye. But that is getting into the deep waters...

 

[Monnyjay]

Thank you experts (especially Sir John - for your helpful information. It appears it's all in the symmetry. A diamond buyer for a B & M store advised me that a particular brand of Diamond - (not wishing to mention said brand, other than the "world's most perfectly cut" is the only one to have these parameters.

I am now completely satisfied that this is not the case and can broaden my search to find a stone within these ranges from other vendors.


Please correct me if I am wrong!

 

[OoohShiny]

Thank you experts (especially Sir John - for your helpful information. It appears it's all in the symmetry. A diamond buyer for a B & M store advised me that a particular brand of Diamond - (not wishing to mention said brand, other than the "world's most perfectly cut" is the only one to have these parameters.

I am now completely satisfied that this is not the case and can broaden my search to find a stone within these ranges from other vendors.


Please correct me if I am wrong!

I think it's safe to say that "the world's most perfectly cut" diamonds don't all come from one particular B&M store

Enjoy your search and post up if you have any questions!

 

[John P]

Hi John,
I would agree with you on the above statement on most cases "in those categories" especially if we are talking about regular consumers who seek guidance to Diamond purchasing.

But since we never simply talk "most cases" without involving "the best" in those categories I would like to add and hope you agree...

The more precise the three dimensional symmetry is cut too, the more precise uniformity in the play of light thus causing it to be distinguishable to the discerned eye. But that is getting into the deep waters...

Hi Yoram,

You're correct of course, but we are now mixing two topics. At AGSL and GIA the evaluation of "symmetry" only covers 2D features such as facet meet-points, alignment top to bottom, etc. There is a proportions-component but it's blunt and comes nowhere near the tolerances you and I require in dialogues about 3D cutting-precision, the generation of larger virtual facets and such "deep waters."

In fact I'm constantly haranguing tradespeople who use "symmetry" interchangeably to talk about (a) 2D lab graded symmetry and (b) 3D Optical Symmetry resulting from cutting-precision. They are not the same topic. Many pros are cavalier in doing this, simply because they understand context based on the discussion-at-hand. But when the same word is used for two different things on a consumer board like this it makes education more challenging.

 

[John P]

Thank you experts (especially Sir John - for your helpful information. It appears it's all in the symmetry.

You're very welcome. But, pursuant to my post above, the "symmetry" grade on a lab report only covers details of 2D finish and craftsmanship. I'm all-for top symmetry and polish, as that often indicates care in the process. But a diamond can have Excellent or Ideal "symmetry" on the report and still be a terrible performer.

A diamond buyer for a B & M store advised me that a particular brand of Diamond - (not wishing to mention said brand, other than the "world's most perfectly cut" is the only one to have these parameters.

No, it's not the only one to enforce such parameters. But give that brand credit; their marketing initiatives promoted the concept and benefits of cut-quality, up-to and including 3D Optical Precision, even when those things were largely absent in the USA market.

 

[pyramid]

There again the original AGS000 was to convey Ideal Color - D color, Ideal Clarity = Flawless and Ideal Symmetry/polish
.

 

[diagem]

Hi John,
I would agree with you on the above statement on most cases "in those categories" especially if we are talking about regular consumers who seek guidance to Diamond purchasing.

But since we never simply talk "most cases" without involving "the best" in those categories I would like to add and hope you agree...

The more precise the three dimensional symmetry is cut too, the more precise uniformity in the play of light thus causing it to be distinguishable to the discerned eye. But that is getting into the deep waters...

Hi Yoram,

You're correct of course, but we are now mixing two topics. At AGSL and GIA the evaluation of "symmetry" only covers 2D features such as facet meet-points, alignment top to bottom, etc. There is a proportions-component but it's blunt and comes nowhere near the tolerances you and I require in dialogues about 3D cutting-precision, the generation of larger virtual facets and such "deep waters."

In fact I'm constantly haranguing tradespeople who use "symmetry" interchangeably to talk about (a) 2D lab graded symmetry and (b) 3D Optical Symmetry resulting from cutting-precision. They are not the same topic. Many pros are cavalier in doing this, simply because they understand context based on the discussion-at-hand. But when the same word is used for two different things on a consumer board like this it makes education more challenging.

John, I know differentiating them so to minimize consumer confusion is popular (and to some degree understandable).
But since Labs don't credit the highly accurate precision of 3D optical symmetry, I don't think we (cutters of these levels) should combine the two top symmetry grades into an undistinguished level of visuality to anyone (even for education sake).

There is definitely a visual difference when comparing between the top echelons of Ideal 0 symmetry vs. any (ex) 1 symmetry.
I would agree though that between an average Ideal 0 (sym) and a ex1 (sym) the visual difference will be close to nul.

I wonder when geometry grading is going to pioneer... , that would solve the confusion...

 

[Monnyjay]

Thank you experts (especially Sir John - for your helpful information. It appears it's all in the symmetry.

You're very welcome. But, pursuant to my post above, the "symmetry" grade on a lab report only covers details of 2D finish and craftsmanship. I'm all-for top symmetry and polish, as that often indicates care in the process. But a diamond can have Excellent or Ideal "symmetry" on the report and still be a terrible performer.

A diamond buyer for a B & M store advised me that a particular brand of Diamond - (not wishing to mention said brand, other than the "world's most perfectly cut" is the only one to have these parameters.

No, it's not the only one to enforce such parameters. But give that brand credit; their marketing initiatives promoted the concept and benefits of cut-quality, up-to and including 3D Optical Precision, even when those things were largely absent in the USA market.

John your last paragraph explains it perfectly (to a layman) - they were the "Trendsetters". So in the end, it is a brand and there are many others with superior cut diamonds equally as good. Posted a week or so back regarding "The Branded One" after trying on a half carat for size and was very impressed with it but couldn't justify the cost. Many Pricescopers chimed in and pointed me in the right direction advising these other stones from various PS vendors were just as good.

Sorry if I opened a can of worms just wanted an experts unbiased opinion.

What happened to just buying a diamond and being happy with it! 26 years ago when I got engaged, it was all about just getting a diamond - the 4 C's didn't come into it. Now I won't settle for less than ex cut, tragic.

Thank's again!

.

 

[John P]

There again the original AGS000 was to convey Ideal Color - D color, Ideal Clarity = Flawless and Ideal Symmetry/polish

Good historical point. The original AGS "Triple Zero" = 0 Color, 0 Clarity, 0 Cut.

Back in 2005 I asked AGSL when that definition had changed. They said it was due to sellers who saw that "Ideal" cut diamonds had three zeros listed (proportions/performance + polish + symmetry) and started calling them "Triple Zeros." The society actually tried to address this, but it spread through the trade lexicon and became common. For AGS it became an “if you can’t beat them, join them” thing and they adopted the new meaning.

For those interested...

In 2006 GIA introduced cut-grading for the round brilliant. In their metric a diamond with "Excellent" proportions + polish + symmetry quickly became known as a "Triple EX." Of relevance here is that GIA would allow a diamond with "EX" in proportions to have VGs in polish and/or symmetry and still receive "EX" overall. Thus, we have always also had single and double "EX" diamonds from GIA.

In 2012 AGS relaxed their position to reflect the GIA view on finish. Now a diamond with "0" in performance may receive 1s in polish and/or symmetry and still receive "0" in cut overall. Therefore, since 2012, we've indeed had the possibilities of "single and double zeros" in cut from AGSL, where we did not before.

And the green grass grows all around.

 

[John P]

John your last paragraph explains it perfectly (to a layman) - they were the "Trendsetters". So in the end, it is a brand and there are many others with superior cut diamonds equally as good. Posted a week or so back regarding "The Branded One" after trying on a half carat for size and was very impressed with it but couldn't justify the cost. Many Pricescopers chimed in and pointed me in the right direction advising these other stones from various PS vendors were just as good.

Sorry if I opened a can of worms just wanted an experts unbiased opinion.

Thank's again!

Very happy to help, and no can of worms at all. The number of companies with exclusive dedication to a niche production is small. In short, we know each other. Different choices in target market and strategy don't prevent mutual esteem for quality-focus.

What happened to just buying a diamond and being happy with it! 26 years ago when I got engaged, it was all about just getting a diamond - the 4 C's didn't come into it. Now I won't settle for less than ex cut, tragic.

Not tragic... Fun, even?

In fact, with respect to the good old days, those 26 years (wow) have seen a boost in consumer protection, a dramatic increase in transparency - thanks to the internet and resources like Pricescope - and a resultant chance to receive greater value for less outlay due to margin reductions in the mainstream.

In short: With Pricescope as your sommelier, you'll find the quality wines in the cellar with reasonable and proportionate pricing, and avoid the bottled-koolaid with scandalous markups.

 

[Lorelei]

Monny, you didn't open a tin of pale squirmy things at all, great informative threads have developed as a result of these questions that benefit all!

 

[Monnyjay]

Monny, you didn't open a tin of pale squirmy things at all, great informative threads have developed as a result of these questions that benefit all!

Awww thank you Lorelei, it always good to know someone is there to answer these particular questions and I totally agree it may help others.

This all came about after I went to try on diamond studs to see what size I would like. I tried on a pair of (Brand H) and was really impressed. I did not commit to purchasing them, but long story short, the sales person emailed and I replied. Their diamond buyer responded and spoke about them having AGS 000 Double Ideal. I had never heard of this before, even on PS, so that's why I thought I would ask.

The same person also told me they had a pair of FSi1 0.75ct each studs at 25K or I could go down to ESI2's for around 23K The name's Billy not Silly! I couldn't believe it, how can they justify that mark up. A similar pair was found from a PS vendor at just on 6K. They must think you came down in the last shower

I might go back to my original plan of finding a pair to match a stone I already have. It's still a very nice Ex cut HSI2 GIA cert rb 0.56ct.

Not a lot will happen between now the OS holiday, but whatever I decide I will be sure to post them on DS thread!

 

[Lorelei]

Monny, you didn't open a tin of pale squirmy things at all, great informative threads have developed as a result of these questions that benefit all!

A similar pair was found from a PS vendor at just on 6K. They must think you came down in the last shower

I might go back to my original plan of finding a pair to match a stone I already have. It's still a very nice Ex cut HSI2 GIA cert rb 0.56ct.

Not a lot will happen between now the OS holiday, but whatever I decide I will be sure to post them on DS thread!

I 've never heard that saying before, rolling on the floor here!!!!! Just fallen out of a Christmas tree is my equivalent, but that saying is hilarious!!!!!!!