Category 1 and Category 2 Diamonds

[richielaw]

Hi everyone! This is my first post so I wanted to thank everyone for all their awesome posts in this forum as it has been highly instructive. I had a question that I am hoping someone can provide some guidance.

I am looking for an e-ring for the gf and have been working with an independent broker/importer to design the ring. His customer service has been excellent and he has really gone above and beyond in helping me with this purchase. He has been a great instructor in diamonds and the diamond selling process.

The thing is that in the course of our discussions he has mentioned that all diamonds sold online are "Category 2" stones, stones that have a structural or atomic level defects. He has insisted on having "Category 1" diamonds in the ring. I had never heard of this prior to my conversations with him and an in-depth google search returns nothing.

I asked him for additional resources in which I could study this effect and he said that there is really nothing out there and that he received his information from his year at GIA's gemological laboratory and through a company that tests for these defects with no links or papers or studies.

This has set off my b.s. meters to an alarming degree. I am not sure if I am being cynical but I figured I would ask you nice folk if you had ever heard of this?

Thanks in advance!

 

[ame]

Hi everyone! This is my first post so I wanted to thank everyone for all their awesome posts in this forum as it has been highly instructive. I had a question that I am hoping someone can provide some guidance.

I am looking for an e-ring for the gf and have been working with an independent broker/importer to design the ring. His customer service has been excellent and he has really gone above and beyond in helping me with this purchase. He has been a great instructor in diamonds and the diamond selling process.

The thing is that in the course of our discussions he has mentioned that all diamonds sold online are "Category 2" stones, stones that have a structural or atomic level defects. He has insisted on having "Category 1" diamonds in the ring. I had never heard of this prior to my conversations with him and an in-depth google search returns nothing.

I asked him for additional resources in which I could study this effect and he said that there is really nothing out there and that he received his information from his year at GIA's gemological laboratory and through a company that tests for these defects with no links or papers or studies.

This has set off my b.s. meters to an alarming degree. I am not sure if I am being cynical but I figured I would ask you nice folk if you had ever heard of this?

Thanks in advance!

Wow. He sounds like a serious BS shoveller to me, and you're turning up no proof of his BS because it is just that: BS. I would walk away, sorry. Good customer service isn't really good if he's a big fat liar. Because that's what he is. And what happens when you get your ring and something goes wrong?

A lot of B&M folks who are scared of the competition the internet has brought into the marketplace come up with some seriously scary nonsense to try to freak out customers and keep them from going with an internet vendor. In a lot of cases it backfires, in others it works perfectly. And in this case, I think it's going to backfire. The stones available to internet vendors are just the same as the ones available to him and B&M vendors.

 

[aaronx88]

This has set off my b.s. meters to an alarming degree.

Honestly, I have no idea. But it sounds like b.s, it looks like b.s and it smells like b.s, then it is B.S.

As long as the diamond are graded by AGS/GIA, online diamonds are not inferior to diamond he is selling.

Aaron

 

[TC1987]

http://www.abazias.com/DiamondEducation/articles/How-diamond-type-can-affect-color.asp

Summary: How diamond type can affect color
Diamonds can be classified into type 1 diamonds and type 2 diamonds with further classification of type 1 a, type 2 b and type 2 a and type 2 b.

Sounds like that's what the jeweler is referring to. ALL kinds of diamonds are sold online. Just pick what make/color/clarity/cut you want, I suppose. Maybe you are looking for a D color and IF clarity, or something? Or the jeweler is pushing that?

eta: Interesting, too, about the Type IIa "Super D" colorless that goes "beyond D"
http://gemwiseblogspotcom.blogspot.com/2008/05/big-type-iia-diamonds-glow-at-sothebys.html



My diamonds range from E down to M in color, and VVS1 down to I1. And I still like all of them.

 

[richielaw]

http://www.abazias.com/DiamondEducation/articles/How-diamond-type-can-affect-color.asp

Summary: How diamond type can affect color
Diamonds can be classified into type 1 diamonds and type 2 diamonds with further classification of type 1 a, type 2 b and type 2 a and type 2 b.

Sounds like that's what the jeweler is referring to. ALL kinds of diamonds are sold online. Just pick what you want, I suppose. Maybe you are looking for a D color and IF, or something? Or the jeweler is pushing that?

My diamonds range from E down to M in color, and VVS1 down to I1. And I still like all of them.

Thanks for the link! But I'm not sure if that is what he is referring to. It seems that Category 2 stones to him may have impurities that cause yellowing over time via accumulation of nitrogen. He recently sent me this when describing the next part of the process in purchasing a stone for the ring:

• Structural Integrity: The stone is tested for sub-atomic and atomic structural defects that could result in the stone breaking, chipping, nicking, or cracking down the road

• Molecular Stability: The stone is tested to ensure the crystal lattice (the DNA of the diamond) is closed. Many Category 2 stones have a molecular deficiency that allows the stone to absorb nitrogen from the atmosphere. Nitrogen is what makes diamonds look yellow. So, a stone w/ a molecular deficiency may be a G-color today, but will be a K-color in 10 years. We test to eliminate such stones from consideration.

• Inclusion Stability: Many Category 2 stones have flaws that are progressive (rather than static). A progressive inclusion is one that will grow, change, and worsen over time. Many consumers have no idea that flaws in a stone CAN worsen. We eliminate all stones w/ progressive inclusions from consideration.

 

[bunnycat]

What everyone else has said...

B/M stores are afraid of online vendors and so plenty of stuff gets said, I'm sure. I think as long as the diamond is AGS/GIA graded and fits in the ideal parameters you can get a stone where ever you think best.

The bonus of some of the online vendors is that cut quality has become very prominent and they tend to focus more on this with online sales with things like idealscope, ASET and other imagery which either is already available or can be done for you. In addition you have the HCA and AGA/NAJA cut class tools on here plus the input of many people who are not trying to sell you a stone. In other words- education.

This guys job is to sell you a diamond, not educate you. I bet if you asked about ideal parameters and idealscopes he'd just scratch his head or give you some flim flam. Again- you can go this route, but it's up to you to educate yourself on what to look for. If you like the idea of prusuing a diamond from a B/M, you can, but I'd spend a little time learning here and buy an idealscope (they are cheap compared to the thousands you are planning on spending) so you have better info for yourself.

 

[Fly Girl]

http://www.abazias.com/DiamondEducation/articles/How-diamond-type-can-affect-color.asp

Summary: How diamond type can affect color
Diamonds can be classified into type 1 diamonds and type 2 diamonds with further classification of type 1 a, type 2 b and type 2 a and type 2 b.

Sounds like that's what the jeweler is referring to. ALL kinds of diamonds are sold online. Just pick what make/color/clarity/cut you want, I suppose. Maybe you are looking for a D color and IF clarity, or something? Or the jeweler is pushing that?

eta: Interesting, too, about the Type IIa "Super D" colorless that goes "beyond D"
http://gemwiseblogspotcom.blogspot.com/2008/05/big-type-iia-diamonds-glow-at-sothebys.html



My diamonds range from E down to M in color, and VVS1 down to I1. And I still like all of them.

I thought about this too, but agree that type 1 and type 2 diamonds have absolutely nothing to do with the internet.

For more BS, how about diamonds cut from full-term rough? Don't want to use that premature carbon.

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/another-fred-cuellar-invention-full-term-rough.181165/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/another-fred-cuellar-invention-full-term-rough.181165/[/URL]

 

[Karl_K]

BS with just a hint of truth in that there are 4 types of diamond.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_type

With the same cut, color, and clarity there is no visible difference between the types.
Cut makes the biggest difference in any diamond by far.

If you really want to blow his mind ask him if that would be 2a or 2b.
And since all hpht man made diamonds are type 2 ask him if they are man made or hpht treated :}

It really makes me burning mad when people take partial truth and twist it all up to make a sale.

 

[Fly Girl]

"Many Category 2 stones have a molecular deficiency that allows the stone to absorb nitrogen from the atmosphere. Nitrogen is what makes diamonds look yellow. So, a stone w/ a molecular deficiency may be a G-color today, but will be a K-color in 10 years. We test to eliminate such stones from consideration."

This is interesting stuff. Yes, I'm sure that the G colored stone you buy from him will still be G colored in 10 years. But, so would any other G colored stone you purchased elsewhere (given the same laboratory certification methods, of course). Jeese.

 

[Karl_K]

• Structural Integrity: The stone is tested for sub-atomic and atomic structural defects that could result in the stone breaking, chipping, nicking, or cracking down the road

• Molecular Stability: The stone is tested to ensure the crystal lattice (the DNA of the diamond) is closed. Many Category 2 stones have a molecular deficiency that allows the stone to absorb nitrogen from the atmosphere. Nitrogen is what makes diamonds look yellow. So, a stone w/ a molecular deficiency may be a G-color today, but will be a K-color in 10 years. We test to eliminate such stones from consideration.

• Inclusion Stability: Many Category 2 stones have flaws that are progressive (rather than static). A progressive inclusion is one that will grow, change, and worsen over time. Many consumers have no idea that flaws in a stone CAN worsen. We eliminate all stones w/ progressive inclusions from consideration.

That is just BS.

 

[TC1987]

Or, perhaps AGA/NAJA cut class 2a/2b is what the jeweler meant? That would probably make more sense.
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-grading-chart-round

eta: I just saw the later comments.

"Many Category 2 stones have a molecular deficiency that allows the stone to absorb nitrogen from the atmosphere. Nitrogen is what makes diamonds look yellow. So, a stone w/ a molecular deficiency may be a G-color today, but will be a K-color in 10 years. We test to eliminate such stones from consideration."

^ Now, that would have me in an absolute panic, knowing that atmospheric air we are breathing right now is about 79% nitrogen and only 21% oxygen.

I like Karl's answer: Ask more questions. LOL!

 

[yssie]

1. Reputable labs (GIA and AGSL in the US) will downgrade clarity on stones with significant/pervasive inclusions that pose undue structural instability. For melee that wouldn't be sent to GIA it's up to the jeweller to decide what's acceptable and what isn't.

2. Oh, for God's sake. Is this idiot's name Fred Cuellar by any chance? The way he continually twists the basics is... offensive. Yes, a diamond's crystal structure is very rarely "perfect" - the impurities and inconsistencies yield stones with different characteristics - slightly tinted stones, FCDs, stones with fluor... but that structure is determined when the rough is formed and it is what it is, and it won't change for billions of years until it turns back into graphite - or you nuke it!

3. If it survived cutting there's no danger of it disintegrating before your eyes. Yes, some inclusions might be liable to worsen with trauma, and trauma can certainly create problems - diamonds can chip. Avoid stones with overly thin girdles + overly low crowns, avoid I2/I3s, try to avoid banging your stone into things, and get it insured.

ETA: I just saw that FlyGirl already asked

 

[yssie]

Edit--

I like Karl's answer: Ask more questions. LOL!

 

[richielaw]

1. Reputable labs (GIA and AGSL in the US) will downgrade clarity on stones with significant/pervasive inclusions that pose undue structural instability. For melee that wouldn't be sent to GIA it's up to the jeweller to decide what's acceptable and what isn't.

2. Oh, for God's sake. Is this idiot's name Fred Cuellar by any chance? The way he continually twists the basics is... offensive. Yes, a diamond's crystal structure is very rarely "perfect" - the impurities and inconsistencies yield stones with different characteristics - slightly tinted stones, FCDs, stones with fluor... but that structure is determined when the rough is formed and it is what it is, and it won't change for billions of years until it turns back into graphite - or you nuke it!

3. If it survived cutting there's no danger of it disintegrating before your eyes. Yes, some inclusions might be liable to worsen with trauma, and trauma can certainly create problems - diamonds can chip. Avoid stones with overly thin girdles + overly low crowns, avoid I2/I3s, try to avoid banging your stone into things, and get it insured.

ETA: I just saw that FlyGirl already asked

Thanks for your reply! As an aside this is not a brick/mortar store. It is a importer/broker that I'm dealing with online. I heard of the guy through friend recommendations and I have seen proof of his work. He also deals exclusively in GIA and AGSL diamonds.

No, his name is not Fred Cuellar. And I'm loathe to provide the name at this time.

Your #3 is definitely true! And I appreciate the advice.

 

[yssie]

Please do provide the name when you are comfortable so that others will know to who to avoid. This guy's way past BS - he's outright lying to you.

 

[kenny]

It's true.
Category 2 diamonds have defective asymptotic valence rings and a badly transmogrified lattice structure.
These defects prevent any money from going into his pocket.
Stick with Category 1.

Seriously, RUN away from this scam artist.

 

[richielaw]

I'm currently getting a quote from him for diamonds. I am going to compare them with internet prices on similarly situated GIA certified stones to see if there is a difference and how much. I'll post what I find.

It's true.
Category 2 diamonds have defective asymptotic valence rings and a badly transmogrified lattice structure.
These defects prevent any money from going into his pocket.
Stick with Category 1.

Seriously, RUN away from this scam artist.

Ha! This made me lol.

 

[John P]

Structural and inclusion integrity are considerations: When buying rough we consider internal strain, grain direction, twinning or other crystal distortion, included minerals and breaks, etc. If there are any issues the manufacturing plan will account for them, or else the stone may break during sawing, bruting or polishing. So these things are largely done at the cutting level. Once the diamond is polished it has passed through more stress, pressure and friction than it will ever encounter again... The only time re-analysis would be necessary is for recut-repair. Even then, I don't know of a "sub-atomic" test as the description implies.

Molecular Stability: The stone is tested to ensure the crystal lattice (the DNA of the diamond) is closed. Many Category 2 stones have a molecular deficiency that allows the stone to absorb nitrogen from the atmosphere. Nitrogen is what makes diamonds look yellow. So, a stone w/ a molecular deficiency may be a G-color today, but will be a K-color in 10 years. We test to eliminate such stones from consideration.

I don't think this is possible in physics. Diamonds with unpolished girdles can collect dirt, grease and other detritus over time - causing them to face up darker than when they were new. But I have never heard of the "molecular deficiency" described above, even as a trade rumor.

TC brought up diamond type classifications. These classifications are legitimate, and have to do with chemicals present when the diamond formed, but the only class known for any structural issues is type IIb (below). Other diamonds are considered on their own merits and problem-solved long before they ever reach commercial pipelines.

Type Ia diamonds have nitrogen in them and make up over 97.0% of gem-quality diamonds.
These are most diamonds we see, sell and buy every day.

Type Ib diamonds have nitrogen with more influence, representing only 00.1% of gem-quality diamonds.
These are often extremely yellow or brown tinted.

Type IIa diamonds are largely free of nitrogen and make up around 02.0% of gem-quality diamonds.
The legency "Golconda" diamonds and super-Ds are IIa.
Many Argyle diamonds are IIa, as growth anomalies can make them pink (or other colors).

Type IIb diamonds contain boron and make up only 00.1% of gem-quality diamonds.
These are grey-blue, frequently have structural issues, and are best known for electrical conductivity.

 

[chrono]

Type Ib diamonds have nitrogen with more influence, representing only 00.1% of gem-quality diamonds. These are often extremely yellow or brown tinted.

John,
Isn't this the colouring agent responsible for yellow diamonds (FCDs)? This is a good thing in the FCD world.

With all the half truths and half BS, it sounds as though this vendor did not fully understand what he learned in his GIA classes.

 

[Lula]

Hi everyone! This is my first post so I wanted to thank everyone for all their awesome posts in this forum as it has been highly instructive. I had a question that I am hoping someone can provide some guidance.

I am looking for an e-ring for the gf and have been working with an independent broker/importer to design the ring. His customer service has been excellent and he has really gone above and beyond in helping me with this purchase. He has been a great instructor in diamonds and the diamond selling process.

The thing is that in the course of our discussions he has mentioned that all diamonds sold online are "Category 2" stones, stones that have a structural or atomic level defects. He has insisted on having "Category 1" diamonds in the ring. I had never heard of this prior to my conversations with him and an in-depth google search returns nothing.

I asked him for additional resources in which I could study this effect and he said that there is really nothing out there and that he received his information from his year at GIA's gemological laboratory and through a company that tests for these defects with no links or papers or studies.

This has set off my b.s. meters to an alarming degree. I am not sure if I am being cynical but I figured I would ask you nice folk if you had ever heard of this?

Thanks in advance!

Wow. Where to start? First, I don't get the importance of the broker/importer designation. Is he collecting sales tax from you? If so, he's a retailer and you are paying retail prices for whatever he's selling. Second, does he do testing on the stones he sells to ensure that they are indeed "category 1" diamonds? Will he provide you with a reputable grading or certification document that the diamond you buy from him is indeed a "category 1"? If this is so important, and if there are so many horrible category 2 diamonds out there, and -- and this part is the stickler for me -- if you can't tell that your diamond is a category 1 just by looking at it, then he must be able to provide you with evidence of what you are buying. Otherwise it is salesman's puffery and not worth the paper it's <not> printed on. Third, where is he sourcing these elusive category 1 stones, and how does he know that his supply is indeed category 1? Is he a cutter? Or is he importing stones from large cutting operations just like the other retailers out there? If it's the latter, does his source provide him with documentation that the stones he's buying to sell to you are indeed category 1 stones?

This kind of stuff makes me so angry. Please walk away from this unethical business person. He deserves to lose a sale for this.

ETA: Just saw John Pollard's post. So you could pretty much close your eyes and choose any diamond, and 97% of the time it would be a category Ia. Sheesh. Tell your guy that you want him to source you some type IIb diamonds because you're rewiring your house.

 

[John P]

Type Ib diamonds have nitrogen with more influence, representing only 00.1% of gem-quality diamonds. These are often extremely yellow or brown tinted.

John,
Isn't this the colouring agent responsible for yellow diamonds (FCDs)? This is a good thing in the FCD world.

Very true. It's because the nitrogen atoms in Ib diamonds are scattered singly (not aggregated), so they efficiently absorb light at the blue end of the spectrum. This promotes the strong yellow color you see in intense canary yellow diamonds.

97%+ of gem-quality diamonds have aggregated N. That type Ia class can be further subdivided into IaAB, IaA, IaB, IaN3, depending on how the nitrogen bonded with the carbon. Nearly all synthetic diamonds are Ib, containing up to 500 ppm nitrogen, which is why the first synthetics could not be made "white."

I did not mean to sound negative. Reading it again, my descriptions of structural defects and impurities might seem to cast aspersions, but let's not forget that the amazing Hope Diamond is a stunning type IIb.

 

[ascari_2]

The stone is tested for sub-atomic and atomic structural defects that could result in the stone breaking, chipping, nicking, or cracking down the road

Hahahaha!

 

[chrono]

The stone is tested for sub-atomic and atomic structural defects that could result in the stone breaking, chipping, nicking, or cracking down the road

Hahahaha!

Viewed through an electron microscope?

 

[diamonds-are-friends]

might want to ask what kind of equipment they use to test the sub atomic structure defects?

Do they use super high tech equipment like nano interfermoters or indenters?
haha