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Cartier Cut and Dimensions not good enough?

Tsuska

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 16, 2016
Messages
14
Hi everyone,

Thanks for the reply about the feather inclusion. This is about the same diamond.

I recently messaged Paul from "Beyond 4c's" about the Cartier Diamond and according to him the dimension were not good enough. Is this true:

1.01 carat, H, VS1, Triple excellent cut, polish, symmetry GIA certification.
Measurement: 6.53-6.55x3.90mm
Depth: 59.6 %, table: 59 %, crown angle: 33.5, crown height 13.5%, pavillion angle: 40.8°, pavillion depth:43%
Star length 55%, Lower half 80%
Girdle thin to medium faceted, 3%, cutlet: none
Fluorescence: none
Scored: 1.2 on HCA.

Also i mentioned I have not seen the stone because it's in Paris.


I'm thinking whether or not i shoulder get my girlfriend a Cartier that she wants or get it custom made elsewhere.

If this is not good enough what dimensions should I be looking for? (honestly when i'm in the store all diamonds look more or less the same to me...haha)
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
55,633
Unless her greatest desire is to have the Cartier brand, you can do SO much better! A great example would be a master ringmaker who carries top cut diamonds, Victor Canera. Easy to buy both ring and setting in one place.

https://victorcanera.com/

Look under diamonds and click on Canera Ideal Hearts. There you will find more perfectly cut stones than you will find at Cartier. Plus he is a pave master and makes gorgeous handforged rings. Here is a nice example that is similar to Cartier.

https://victorcanera.com/rings/engagement/the-trueste-with-pave

But any of his rings would be outstanding.

We can also recommend other top diamond vendors such as Whiteflash (A Cut Above), Good Old Gold (Ascendancy), and High Performance Diamonds (Infinity). Any of their top category of diamonds is great.
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
55,633
Tell me what that 1 ct Cartier ring costs and I can show you what you can get instead. And which setting was it?

Basically she needs to be asked if she wants a 1 ct Cartier ring or a 1.5 ct superior quality diamond and custom setting for the same amount of money. If the two were side by side, I cannot imagine anyone choosing the smaller one when the larger one will be better in every respect.
 

msop04

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Messages
9,779
diamondseeker2006|1463496481|4032682 said:
Tell me what that 1 ct Cartier ring costs and I can show you what you can get instead. And which setting was it?

Basically she needs to be asked if she wants a 1 ct Cartier ring or a 1.5 ct superior quality diamond and custom setting for the same amount of money. If the two were side by side, I cannot imagine anyone choosing the smaller one when the larger one will be better in every respect.
100% agree. I can't imagine her choosing a much smaller diamond simply bc it says Cartier on the inside of the band. ;))

Also, BE (formerly ERD) does really good Cartier repros... should VC be too pricey. Just a thought. :halo:
 

VRBeauty

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Apr 2, 2006
Messages
10,228
Some people would prefer a smaller diamond in a true Cartier band, just as some people prefer a VS1 to an SI1 even if even they cannot see the difference without a loupe. You GF may be one of these people - or not. Give her a realistic assessment of the trade-offs involved and see what she says. I'm sort of one of those people BTW. I'd love to get a Cartier Trinity rolling ring sometime, but I wouldn't consider even the best-made imitation.

(It can also be harder to get a truly outstanding diamond at Cartier since you're limited to what they have on hand or will call in for you. We've had some threads on that that you can search for. )
 

teobdl

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
May 8, 2013
Messages
986
I don't know what setting you're looking at, but Mark T at Brilliantly Engaged does a ring very very close to the Cartier classic 1895 ring.

http://www.brilliantlyengaged.com/anna-solitaire-bpid-318-19.html
vs http://www.cartier.us/en-us/collections/engagement/engagement-rings/solitaire-1895/h4202900-solitaire-ring.html
You can get the Brilliantly Engaged ring without the "double claw" prongs and it's pretty indistinguishable.

You can absolutely get much more for your money if you don't purchase from Cartier--you'll get a larger diamond that is just as well, if not better, cut at the same color and clarity, and the setting won't be as overpriced.

But if you absolutely have to get Cartier, then go for it.
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
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Messages
55,633
VRBeauty|1463512697|4032850 said:
Some people would prefer a smaller diamond in a true Cartier band, just as some people prefer a VS1 to an SI1 even if even they cannot see the difference without a loupe. You GF may be one of these people - or not. Give her a realistic assessment of the trade-offs involved and see what she says. I'm sort of one of those people BTW. I'd love to get a Cartier Trinity rolling ring sometime, but I wouldn't consider even the best-made imitation.

(It can also be harder to get a truly outstanding diamond at Cartier since you're limited to what they have on hand or will call in for you. We've had some threads on that that you can search for. )
I totally agree with you that I'd never get a rolling ring that wasn't Cartier, but those are about $1200 or so. If the budget was hypothetically $20k, I'd rather have a Victor Canera custom handforged ring with a 1.5 ct H&A diamond over a Cartier 1 ct. any day. The Cartier setting is not distinctive enough to really be worth it especially since the diamonds are not as outstanding. But I do agree and said above that she needs to be shown the VC links and ask which she likes better.

If she wants the plain solitaire without the pave, Victor Canera makes this one as well:

https://www.victorcanera.com/rings/engagement/the-trueste-solitaire
 

msop04

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Messages
9,779
teobdl|1463514031|4032865 said:
I don't know what setting you're looking at, but Mark T at Brilliantly Engaged does a ring very very close to the Cartier classic 1895 ring.

http://www.brilliantlyengaged.com/anna-solitaire-bpid-318-19.html
vs http://www.cartier.us/en-us/collections/engagement/engagement-rings/solitaire-1895/h4202900-solitaire-ring.html
You can get the Brilliantly Engaged ring without the "double claw" prongs and it's pretty indistinguishable.

You can absolutely get much more for your money if you don't purchase from Cartier--you'll get a larger diamond that is just as well, if not better, cut at the same color and clarity, and the setting won't be as overpriced.

But if you absolutely have to get Cartier, then go for it.
This is what I was referring to... the Anna solitaire is just soooo :love: :love: !! ...and will be even more so with a larger stone than you could afford at Cartier. :halo:

Edited for typos... geez.
 

Tsuska

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 16, 2016
Messages
14
Thanks for all the suggestions.

Yea it really is hard to find a really good diamond at Cartier and the price is... :-o

I'm not looking for a larger diamond though. 1 carat is perfect for her size (and she doesn't want a big diamond either.
- i know i can save some money if I don't get a Cartier though
- For a 1 carat in terms of cut/dimensions is this a decent one or can I do better? (i know it's hard without seeing it in person)
- I'm currently living in Australia so it's hard to order from elsewhere... (I like B&M shops)

Then again i could get a better colour for a better price elsewhere but I'm more concerned about the cut at the moment (everyone says Cut is King)
 

flyingpig

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 7, 2015
Messages
2,177
I recently messaged Paul from "Beyond 4c's" about the Cartier Diamond and according to him the dimension were not good enough. Is this true:
That is a bold statement to make without seeing the actual image or IS. Yes, the table is slightly big and the crown angle is a tad low. But the numbers complement each other. It has potential to show some fiery characteristic of H&A and great light return of 60/60.

For a 1 carat in terms of cut/dimensions is this a decent one or can I do better? (i know it's hard without seeing it in person)
It is more than decent. But it is not what is considered super ideal. But it still may be spectacular. Can you do better? (Arguably) yes, but no definitive answer without light performance images. I would buy a stone with those numbers depending on the overall appearance and light performance.
 

canuk-gal

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 19, 2004
Messages
20,559
HI:

Cartier makes beautiful jewellery. They also have beautiful service. :))

Please, if you want specific parameters in cut, then ask them to find you what you are looking for. They get you what you want and go to great lengths to ensure you are satisfied. For sure!

cheers--Sharon
 

ADN

Shiny_Rock
Trade
Joined
Nov 24, 2015
Messages
311
Tsuska|1463524753|4032935 said:
Thanks for all the suggestions.

Yea it really is hard to find a really good diamond at Cartier and the price is... :-o

I'm not looking for a larger diamond though. 1 carat is perfect for her size (and she doesn't want a big diamond either.
- i know i can save some money if I don't get a Cartier though
- For a 1 carat in terms of cut/dimensions is this a decent one or can I do better? (i know it's hard without seeing it in person)
- I'm currently living in Australia so it's hard to order from elsewhere... (I like B&M shops)

Then again i could get a better colour for a better price elsewhere but I'm more concerned about the cut at the moment (everyone says Cut is King)
Hey mate :wavey: - - I'm in the trade, and forum rules don't allow me to comment on specific stones or other suppliers - but in general, if you're looking for a top end cut stone, look to stay around these parameters for a round brilliant:

Table: 55-58
Depth: 60-62.3
Crown angle: 34-35.5
Pavilion angle: 40.6-41
Diameter: for a 1ct stay around 6.4-6.5mm
Girdle: -/+ medium

Now the qualifier ;-) ...are these the only measurements that make a beautiful stone...absolutely not (that's why GIA is so broad with their 'excellent' cut grade)...it's about overall balance in the stone - - however, these numbers will give you a stone that you can be very confident will return light the way a diamond should.

Regarding the original stone you were looking at (in general) - many people would find that a very desirable diamond - but on this forum, it's not likely to receive favourable reviews - - so remember...what you're going to be getting when you seek advice from places like this forum are other peoples opinions...there is no right or wrong with what you find appealing, what you're willing to pay, and your dealings with the vendor...with diamonds & jewellery it's about what you/recipient find aesthetically pleasing, and what will make you and the recipient happy.

Lastly...and yes I'm biased :lol: ...but you have a lot of really good options here is Aus that you should explore if you're worried about buying from overseas.
Hope this helps
 

honn

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 31, 2016
Messages
26
hi tsuka,
what do you want your diamond to be like? you mentioned that it is not the size you want? what do you value most and look for in a stone you desire to purchase?
please let me put my experience: recently i went to cartier and tiffany when i first thought of marking my 20th wedding anniversary. when i was in europe i dropped into cartier at place vendome in paris and spoke to a lovely SA who specialised in sales of diamond. she showed me 3 beautiful solitaire rings. i also visited tiffany's and i wasn't greeted with a level of service compared to cartier but i saw what i wanted to see.
i was looking at the cut. that was the most important thing for me.
i discovered that i wasn't convinced of the cutting precision at the above venders, meaning that they weren't as maniacally "into" discussing cuts of the stone as i was. yes, they were all beautiful and elegant and designed with sophistication up to their historical standards.
thank you for reading my notes. i hope you find your beautiful stone.
 

Tsuska

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 16, 2016
Messages
14
honn|1463534169|4033017 said:
hi tsuka,
what do you want your diamond to be like? you mentioned that it is not the size you want? what do you value most and look for in a stone you desire to purchase?
please let me put my experience: recently i went to cartier and tiffany when i first thought of marking my 20th wedding anniversary. when i was in europe i dropped into cartier at place vendome in paris and spoke to a lovely SA who specialised in sales of diamond. she showed me 3 beautiful solitaire rings. i also visited tiffany's and i wasn't greeted with a level of service compared to cartier but i saw what i wanted to see.
i was looking at the cut. that was the most important thing for me.
i discovered that i wasn't convinced of the cutting precision at the above venders, meaning that they weren't as maniacally "into" discussing cuts of the stone as i was. yes, they were all beautiful and elegant and designed with sophistication up to their historical standards.
thank you for reading my notes. i hope you find your beautiful stone.
Thx ADN,
I will look out for these. We both knew next to nothing about diamonds prior to me doing all this google "researching".

Hi Honn,

1 carat is the size my GF wants. I value the cut the most so it has to be GIA excellent. (and symmetry and polish excellent I guess). All the stones in Cartier were GIA cut excellent. It also has to be eye clean, at least a H in colour - I don't want it to look yellow but honestly I can't tell the difference when I'm in the shop (Cartier only stocks H colour and up). Clarity I prefer VS1 and above.

I saw 2 other diamonds in store but they scored 3.8 and 4.2 on the HCA so I skipped them. (honestly i can't tell by eye haha).

I am also speaking to someone my mother knows who is a custom jewellery maker, he's no expert on diamonds but he makes custom jewellery for jewellery shops and other customers. He doesn't usually need to buy diamonds because most people who gets him to make jewellery bring their own stones so I think his knowledge about diamonds isn't particularly high however he does employ other more experienced jewellery makers in his business. He's currently contacting his diamond supplier and trying to find a diamond for me as well (significantly cheaper than Cartier...like half the price i think for a similar diamond).

Problem is...i know my GF will be a bit disappointed to not get a Cartier even if it is a better diamond. She'll still be happy but a little disappointed... She really likes the design of the 1895 solitaire (not paved). She also likes yellow gold but she thinks diamond doesn't look good with yellow gold (she's conflicted haha).

Haha life is difficult....
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
55,633
Okay, so she wants a 1 ct Cartier. Then use measurements to find the best possible stone Cartier can find in their database. If I am going to overpay for a branded diamond, you'd better believe it is going to be the best cut diamond possible. ADN gave you about the same thing I use, but I'll post mine.

These are measurements to help you stay in ideal cut territory with a GIA excellent cut stone.

table: 54-58

depth: 60-62.3

crown angle: 34-35.0 (up to 35.5 crown angle can sometimes work with a 40.6 pav angle)

pavilion angle: 40.6-40.9 (sometimes 41.0 if the crown angle is close to 34)

Using Victor's pricing, you'd be at about $7900 for a 1 ct H VS2 stone and add maybe $2500 or so for the handforged platinum setting, so under $11k USD for the non-Cartier ring. How much is the Cartier ring?
 

Tsuska

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 16, 2016
Messages
14
diamondseeker2006|1463538167|4033043 said:
Okay, so she wants a 1 ct Cartier. Then use measurements to find the best possible stone Cartier can find in their database. If I am going to overpay for a branded diamond, you'd better believe it is going to be the best cut diamond possible. ADN gave you about the same thing I use, but I'll post mine.

These are measurements to help you stay in ideal cut territory with a GIA excellent cut stone.

table: 54-58

depth: 60-62.3

crown angle: 34-35.0 (up to 35.5 crown angle can sometimes work with a 40.6 pav angle)

pavilion angle: 40.6-40.9 (sometimes 41.0 if the crown angle is close to 34)

Using Victor's pricing, you'd be at about $7900 for a 1 ct H VS2 stone and add maybe $2500 or so for the handforged platinum setting, so under $11k USD for the non-Cartier ring. How much is the Cartier ring?

Hi diamondseeker2006

Including tax of 10% it is $22900 AUD, which is about $16700 USD - a significant Cartier premium pricing :wall:
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
55,633
Well, honestly I thought it might be worse that that. I do enjoy having some branded jewelry, but I do not get diamond jewelry such as rings or stud earrings because I'd rather go for the better cut stones for less money. I do, however wear a Tiffany repro e-ring setting with a real Tiffany wedding band. There are however, many people who prefer branded partly because they assume they are the best quality. I feel for you because if that's what she really wants, you're kind of stuck (assuming that amount is in budget). The sad thing is, no one is ever going to know it's Cartier unless she tells them, and that's a little awkward!
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
You can try to educate her on cut and have an honest discussion about how much farther her budget will go without the Cartier name.

That's a great idea, because it practices skills you will need while married.

That's really the best thing.
 

ADN

Shiny_Rock
Trade
Joined
Nov 24, 2015
Messages
311
Tsuska|1463542807|4033067 said:
diamondseeker2006|1463538167|4033043 said:
Okay, so she wants a 1 ct Cartier. Then use measurements to find the best possible stone Cartier can find in their database. If I am going to overpay for a branded diamond, you'd better believe it is going to be the best cut diamond possible. ADN gave you about the same thing I use, but I'll post mine.

These are measurements to help you stay in ideal cut territory with a GIA excellent cut stone.

table: 54-58

depth: 60-62.3

crown angle: 34-35.0 (up to 35.5 crown angle can sometimes work with a 40.6 pav angle)

pavilion angle: 40.6-40.9 (sometimes 41.0 if the crown angle is close to 34)

Using Victor's pricing, you'd be at about $7900 for a 1 ct H VS2 stone and add maybe $2500 or so for the handforged platinum setting, so under $11k USD for the non-Cartier ring. How much is the Cartier ring?

Hi diamondseeker2006

Including tax of 10% it is $22900 AUD, which is about $16700 USD - a significant Cartier premium pricing :wall:
...Plus another 5% on top for duty to bring in diamond jewellery + entry charges... :doh:
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
Show her this:
Stone Option 1:
http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/1.133-g-vs2-round-diamond-ags-104082148006
Stone Option 2:
http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/1.237-g-vs2-round-diamond-bfg-21526
Setting:
http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/engagement-rings/elegance-platinum-5415p Very similar to the Cartier setting she wants

You can both do a search for "Brian Gavin Diamonds Review" for yourself and you'll see the rave reviews.

And then come to the best decision for you two. There really is no right or wrong here. It's all about preferences and money. Weddings are VERY expensive. So are homes. So are children.
 

Tsuska

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 16, 2016
Messages
14
I got an email from the sales person at Cartier for a diamond with these specs:

1.08ct H VS1 XXX $24,300.00 AUD
Table: 58% Depth: 60.5% Crown Angle: 35.5% Pavilion Angle: 40.6%

No other information given to me at this time. This is also a "set for me" Cartier service...so I won't be able to see the product before hand (apart from the GIA report which they won't show me unless I go in store).

I am also trying to find another diamond from the other jeweler I know however he seems to be struggling to find a diamond that fits the parameters you guys mentioned (he's searching through his diamond supplier so it's not his own supply).
 

arkieb1

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 11, 2012
Messages
9,543
I wish you could educate your g/f by showing her items on here. I am an Aussie too, another Aussie P/Ser and I some time ago went into Tiffanys and compared their halos with Victor Caneras halos, no contest Victor's pave is far better quality. His platinum settings, or at least the ones I own are nicer quality too. You are paying a premium for the Cartier name yet she will be disappointed with something that is a better cut better quality diamond in a hand forged setting made by someone like Victor unless you actually show her the difference. You need to educate her that she can have something even better than a Cartier, maybe for snob value because lets face it Cartier is a specific brand, she needs to understand Victor can create something that is handmade, exclusive and 5 star celeb quality no it's not a Cartier, is cheaper but it is better and most exclusive than Cartier......

I will go out on a limb and say I have looked at a lot of settings and a lot of jewellers here in Australia and nothing touches the quality of the Victor pieces I own. For the record his stones are amazing as well.
 

ame

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 7, 2004
Messages
10,733
Just because it has the brand name on it does NOT make it better quality. But for the record: A GIA Excellent Cut is a net so wide you can sail a Cruise Ship through it. I personally don't particularly value their "cut grade" because they're not known for grading cut quality. AGS is known for it, though.

You can do better, not just at Cartier, but just about anywhere else. Even that new stone isn't one I'd consider. Keep the table between 55-57. The CA would be better at 34.5 with that PA. The depth would be badass if it had a smaller table and better CA.

IF Cartier the name is vital to her (and to some girls it is!), keep looking thru their stock. Stick to the better numbers, and maybe buy a little ASET scope and bring it back with you to the store when you get more stones to look at (learn what a good image looks like), and they can definitely bring in more than just one, don't let the SA get lazy--they shouldn't require payment to bring anything in, either, regardless of where you are in the world--so you can make sure you're happy with the stones. Select the one that appeals to the eyes the most. But if not, find a better stone thru us, have the setting made by a vendor that makes one similar, and you can always get bands through Cartier for the real thing.

I am not someone that believes in surprising a girl with a ring, either. I think she should be involved in that process. You can always surprise her with the proposal itself.
 

Tsuska

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 16, 2016
Messages
14
Thanks for your opinions everyone. Yea I don't think she's thaaaat tied down to the Cartier brand. She'll definitely be happy with a great diamond and the proposal haha. I'm trying to get the other jeweler I know to find me the ideal diamond from his supplier. I'll chase him up on Monday.
 

Tsuska

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 16, 2016
Messages
14
Alright everybody,

I found a diamond with these specs (not a Cartier and much much cheaper despite better carat, colour, clarity), I will check if out tomorrow:
(not quite Table 54-57% though)

Measurements: 6.49-6.54 x 4.00mm
1.05ct, F, VVS2 (pinpoints, internal graining not shown), XXX, None fluorescence

Table: 58%, depth: 61.5%, Crown angle 35, Crown height 14.5%
Pavillion angle 40.8, Pavillion height 43%
Cutlet none
Girdle: medium to slightly thick (3.5%)

No more Cartier brand but at least I get a better diamond and custom replica the design (hopefully good workmanship). What does everyone think. I don't think i can get an ASET tool or IdealScope here in Australia....
 

ADN

Shiny_Rock
Trade
Joined
Nov 24, 2015
Messages
311
Tsuska|1463922641|4034735 said:
....I don't think i can get an ASET tool or IdealScope here in Australia....
Sure you can
Good luck
 
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