shape
carat
color
clarity
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. PriceScope Upgrade Completed
    For issues, questions and comments click the link below
    https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/pricescope-upgraded-comments-and-issues.229551/

    Dismiss Notice

Calling NewEnglandLady...or any other independent women (who got/are getting married)

Discussion in 'Hangout' started by dockman3, Jul 18, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. dockman3
    Brilliant_Rock

    Messages:
    560
    Joined:
    May 30, 2008
    by dockman3 » Jul 18, 2008
    NEL-

    I''ve got a question for you. I read your post over in the "Questions for married PSer''s" thread and you sounded exactly like my gf. She is deathly afraid of being tied down and being called somebody''s wife. She''s afraid she will lose her identity and become Mrs. Dockman only and won''t be herself anymore. She doesn''t want to be the housewife that does all of the cooking and cleaning (which she never has been as we share those responsibilities). She doesn''t really like my last name. She thinks that once you''re married your life is over and the rest is all downhill from there (which I don''t understand because her parents have been happily married for almost 30 years and are very happy with their lives). We''ve been together for about 4.5 years now, living together for the last (almost) 2 years and I''m ready to get engaged. We''re both in our mid 20''s and the majority of our friends are already married, some with kids.

    Right now, my gf is telling me that she''s not ready to get married, though she has told me she has every intention of marrying me some day. We even have kids names picked out and have discussed where we want to live and how often we want to move and how often we want to travel. We''ve got just about everything sorted out. My question for you is: How did you know you were ready to get married and how are you dealing with all of these emotional issues that you have going on? I want to help my gf through this and let her know that she won''t be known solely has Mrs. Dockman and that she''ll still have her own identity. Any suggestions? If all its going to take is time, I''ll gladly wait for her. She''s terrific, and one of the reasons I love her so much is her independence and free spirit, but that''s what''s keeping her from settling down with me. I feel like us not getting married is holding our lives back and we can''t truly start our lives together until we are married. (I''m talking about a house and kids and things of that nature) I just can''t convince her that marriage is a good thing, not a bad thing, and that she doesn''t have to be afraid of it.

    Thanks in advance for any help you might have, and if you don''t feel like discussing it, I understand that too. Its a really personal thing and I don''t mean to pry. I just want to help my gf get over her fear of marriage so we can move forward with our lives. Thanks again!
     
  2. JSM
    Brilliant_Rock

    Messages:
    802
    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2008
    by JSM » Jul 18, 2008
    I''m not NEL but I consider myself independent. [​IMG]


    First off, that''s great that you and your gf are honest with each other about this! You know where she stands and what she is feeling.


    Have you discussed that she keep her last name if that would make her more comfortable?

    You sound like a wonderful guy. I hope others have better advice for you, and good luck!
     
  3. dockman3
    Brilliant_Rock

    Messages:
    560
    Joined:
    May 30, 2008
    by dockman3 » Jul 18, 2008
    Yeah, we have, but then the issue is what last name to give the kids. I told her she could keep her name professionally but change it privately, and she seemed to be ok with that, but not totally sold. I think its the legally changing her name that she''s not really comfortable with, even if she keeps it professionally. She is starting to bend on that, but isn''t sold on it yet.
     
  4. brazen_irish_hussy
    Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    2,044
    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2006
    by brazen_irish_hussy » Jul 18, 2008
    Why should she bend? My mother has been happily married for almost 25 years and she kept her name and I am keeping mine. I have always been Ms. brazen_irish_hussy and I always will be, privately and professionally. I use Ms. because not only is it a double standard with men, but I don''t think marriage should define me in the same way earning my PHD will.My FI is keeping his name, but the kids are getting a combined name. We talked about it for a long time, and that is what is best for us.

    What about kids? Are you going to stay at home with them, hire a nanny, send them to day care or expect GF to be a SAHM? MY FI wants to be a stay at home dad, so it works for us, but she may not want to drop her life to raise kids. Many women want to and that''s great, but I have known women who didn''t want to but were pressured to do so.

    Are you expecting her to change (name, lifestyle, etc)? If so, maybe you aren''t ready to marry an independent woman.
     
  5. littlelysser
    Brilliant_Rock

    Messages:
    1,862
    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2005
    by littlelysser » Jul 18, 2008
    Hey there. I''m not NEL either...but I was a practicing attorney when I met my DH and consider myself to be pretty independent.

    And I clearly don''t know your story, but I can tell you that your post set off a few red flags for me...you talked about telling her she could keep her name professionally. My DH never told me what I could do or could not do especially regarding a name. This may be just a choice of wording...but it bothered me. If your gf is at all sensitive to that sort of thing...it seems a pretty patriarchal tone to take with your future wife.

    I also notice that you talked about "trying to get her to bend on that." Again, those aren''t the words of a partner that allows his wife to be what she wants...

    I don''t know you, but it kind of seems like you want her to be Mrs.Dockman. And there is nothing wrong with that, if both of you are comfortable with that...but she clearly isn''t and maybe you could be more understanding of that?

    The issue of naming kids is kind of a non-issue, if that is what it takes to make your gf feel comfortable with the marriage.

    Just my .02.
     
  6. dockman3
    Brilliant_Rock

    Messages:
    560
    Joined:
    May 30, 2008
    by dockman3 » Jul 18, 2008
    Thanks for the response! To answer your questions, we've talked about a shared name for the kids, but our two names don't really sound good together. Her last name is Polish and mine is German, so lots of consonants in there. [​IMG] I don't think marriage should define her either. I totally agree with her on this point. That is more of a societal thing that she is worried about. She thinks others will perceive her only as Mrs. Dockman. I never would.

    As for kids, yes, I would be willing to stay home them, but I would also consider other options. Depending on the jobs we both have when we have kids, we will figure it out. I'm currently pursuing my PhD as well, so I may have the higher paying salary, but also the more flexible job. We will have to see what makes sense financially when the time comes. If we can afford it, yes, I would love for one of us to be home when the kids get home from school, but it doesn't have to be her. I would gladly do it.

    I'm not expecting her to change. I've never asked her to give up her professional life for me and I never would. She loves the feeling of having her own job and making her own money. I would never take that away from her. The name thing is more of a traditional thing and I would like her to change that, at least privately. Otherwise, I don't expect her lifestyle to change at all and I have no problem with her having her girls nights out or whatever. She loves them and I would never take those away either.

    I guess I still just need advice on how to convince her that she can still be independent and be married at the same time.
     
  7. NewEnglandLady
    Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    6,287
    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2007
    by NewEnglandLady » Jul 18, 2008
    Hey, Dockman!

    I just have to say that you seem to be so supportive and genuinely caring (not just in this post, but even since the beginning of your ring hunt) and I just think it''s great.

    I know that in my situation, my struggle with independence within marriage has absolutely nothing to do with my wonderful (and equally independent) husband. I wanted to be married--in fact, I left the relationship when I realized D may never want to be married--my therapist would say that was me asserting my independence again. I only say this because I want you to know that her struggle with not being ready for the "role" of wife most likely has nothing to do with you and everything to do with what she''s afraid is expected of her.

    I know that in my situation, it''s the little things that have gotten to me: my family asking me if things were okay because we spent Christmas apart (our families are 1,500 miles apart...and hello? I see him all year long, thanks), people asking me how I like being a "wife", which for some reason makes me feel like I should be celebrating a promotion or something, or people raising an eyebrow when I say that he is no longer working and spends his days on adventures with our dog. I wonder how many would raise an eyebrow if it were me who stopped working.

    To be honest, it''s D who has really helped this situation because none of these things bother him at all. He''s suggested I change my name back for our anniversary if I don''t like it, he still takes his indivual vacations (he''s on one this week), which makes me feel normal and happy that he''s still completely content to do things on his own. I''ve also started to take up some new hobbies which I''m loving (it was a new year''s resolution).

    I do realizes that marriage is what you make it and I didn''t think that as soon as we were married we were suddenly going to be dependent, start all of our sentences with "we think.." or say things like "we love doing everything together!", but I also didn''t embrace things like most women do and that part was tough for me. I''m actually feeling much, much better than I was a few months ago (after being married for 10 months) because I''m coming to terms with what our marriage is...and what it isn''t.

    I found that seeing an individual therapist really helped me. And reading some books about the emotional part of getting engaged and married, especially when you have no interest in the "wedding" part of it. It''s much easier when you realize that what you feel is normal and isn''t an indication that you shouldn''t be engaged or married.
     
  8. NewEnglandLady
    Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    6,287
    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2007
    by NewEnglandLady » Jul 18, 2008
    Honestly, I wouldn''t push the name thing. I''m not alone when I say it''s one of the toughest parts of getting married. And it has nothing to with feminism, it''s just that it''s your identity. My mother would argue that this is my ego talking, but it''s still hard!

    I wish I had waited to change my name...maybe it would have been easier if I let it grow on me a little. I went through the full legal process where you go to court to have your maiden name added as a middle name so I knew I wasn''t just keeping my maiden cosmetically. Still, it was just a band-aid.
     
  9. dockman3
    Brilliant_Rock

    Messages:
    560
    Joined:
    May 30, 2008
    by dockman3 » Jul 18, 2008
    Thanks for the response! "Telling her" was the wrong choice of words on my part. When we discuss this, it is more of her telling me what she wants and me saying I''d be ok with that, or me offering this as a suggestion that would be a compromise between her keeping her name in all circles or taking my name in all circles. I was just trying to find a happy medium and wasn''t "telling" her what she could or could not do.

    I only said "get her to bend on that" because sometimes, to me anyway, it seems like I''m willing to compromise but she isn''t. We are a great team together because we can talk things out like this, but it takes effort on both sides. That''s the only reason I said that. It wasn''t to be controlling or overbearing, but try to get her to compromise on some things and meet me half way.

    I''m very understanding of her not wanting to be known simply as Mrs. Dockman. I have no problem with that what so ever, and as I stated earlier, her independence is one of the things that drew me to her. I have known of her feelings on this for some time now and if I had a major issue with it, I would left a long time ago and not stayed with her! The problem is with the rest of the world, who she fears will only see her as Mrs. Dockman. I don''t know what to tell her to calm her fears that to the rest of the world she won''t be just Mrs. Dockman.
     
  10. decodelighted
    Super_Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    11,534
    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2005
    by decodelighted » Jul 18, 2008
    briefhijackpleaseexcuse

    ** whispers ** um, many. many would raise an eyebrow. [​IMG] my poor DH! I''m a freelancer & with this economy I''m so much more *free* than *lance* its embarrassing. without the impenetrable shield of d-tots i''m sure people are talking.[​IMG] How long can I claim to be homeschooling our cats? Sigh.

    backtotheoriginallyscheduledpostprogrammingsorryagainthxbai
     
  11. Lorelei
    Super_Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    40,758
    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2005
    by Lorelei » Jul 18, 2008
    Dockman, I know this is hard, but I don't know if trying to convince her will do any good, if marriage isn't at the moment something she is comfortable with, then I don't know if there is anything you can say or do to change her mind. All you can do is to keep proving your love for her and perhaps leave the subject of marriage alone for the time being, then broach the subject again at a later date. She may just need more time to get used to the idea, but my advice is to not push it - if she is telling you she isn't ready to get married now but maybe someday, then you may just have to accept her decision and hang in there until she indicates she IS ready.
     
  12. littlelysser
    Brilliant_Rock

    Messages:
    1,862
    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2005
    by littlelysser » Jul 18, 2008
    LOL. As you know, I''m not really lawyering right now...so I tell folks that I homeschooling the dogs...who are still very poorly behaved...so I''m not doing so well.

    Most of my friends are quite surprised that I''m not doing it anymore...but I don''t regret it...now I just have to figure out what I want to be when I grow up. Other than jewelry designer and canine home schooler.
     
  13. dockman3
    Brilliant_Rock

    Messages:
    560
    Joined:
    May 30, 2008
    by dockman3 » Jul 18, 2008
    Thanks NEL!! I really appreciate you taking the time to respond to me. I''m not quite as independent as she is, but I don''t mind doing things on my own. I could see the holiday thing coming up (our families are 2000 mi apart) and we''ve talked about that and came to an agreement about rotating holidays. I love her family and would love to see them around the holidays and sometimes I want her to spend the holidays with my family, so we agreed to split them.

    That''s great that these things don''t bother D at all and you guys are able to make it work! I''m so happy for you! Its also really great that you started your own hobbies. We each have our own things we like to do, and I don''t see marriage changing that one little bit. She actually is excited about planning the wedding, she just doesn''t want to get married yet! Maybe we''ll check some books out of the library on the emotional side of things and hopefully that will help her see that marriage is not the end of the world and can actually be wonderful.

    I''m trying to be patient with the name thing and honestly, it won''t be a problem until we have kids and have to decide what name they are going to take. We''ll figure that out though. I''m supremely confident in our abilities to talk things out. That''s one thing we are both pretty good at!

    Thanks again for your response! I really appreciate it!
     
  14. joflier
    Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    3,505
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    by joflier » Jul 18, 2008
    I think too, that really emphasizing that you respect and appreciate her independance is important. Expressing that that is something that you love about her and that you consider it a plus would be a big positive.
    I''m a very independant woman, who is married to a very dependant man. We have had a lot of growing and getting used to each other in those regaurds. He always wanted the more traditional cooking and cleaning wifey, and I''m just not anywhere close to that. I''m into my career and hobbies. I guess the difference in my situation was that I wanted to be married, but just not in the more traditional sense, I guess you could say. I had some hard times emotionally during the first year or two of our marraige with trying to keep my sense of independance. It was something that came at me after the marriage that I wasn''t expecting. But when dh started expressing to me in words " I appreciate that your so independant" that was a big turning point for me. Just hearing him verbalize that he was ok with that. It made me view things in a much different light. Kind of like NEL, we are kind of strange in doing so many things seperately, and a lot of people do raise their eyebrows. But us talking about it, and both being on the same page, that we take other people''s comments with a grain of salt, cuz it works for us!
     
  15. decodelighted
    Super_Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    11,534
    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2005
    by decodelighted » Jul 18, 2008
    WORD to this! I wasn''t going to change & at the last minute (like IN THE ROOM getting our license) I changed my mind & hyphenated. Blerg. It is so hard to say. I hate telling people by name because I have to spell it out now. Many times I just shorten it to my "old" name for ease & then feel ashamed for copping out or somehow disrespecting my "new" identity. It takes so much longer to write EVERY time I write it or sign something etc etc. ''Tis a real mess. And I think I resent it a little even though it was 100% my own (rash) decision.[​IMG]
     
  16. littlelysser
    Brilliant_Rock

    Messages:
    1,862
    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2005
    by littlelysser » Jul 18, 2008
    Gotcha. Tone is a tough thing to discern on the internets. [​IMG]

    FWIW, I''d recommend letting the name thing drop for sure. It seems to be important to her...and something she doesn''t want to bend on...so I''d let that one go. And really, there is no law that says she can''t change her mind and later change her last name to Dockman.

    Otherwise, I don''t know what you can do...it seems like it may be her issue and not yours, ya know? Counseling might not be a bad idea.

    Also, like NEL said...maybe she''s not looking forward to planning a wedding - which can be SO darn daunting. I called myself the anti-bride for at least a good year after we got engaged...perhaps that is one of the things holding her back? Just another thought.
     
  17. dockman3
    Brilliant_Rock

    Messages:
    560
    Joined:
    May 30, 2008
    by dockman3 » Jul 18, 2008
    Lorelei-

    Thanks for the input. I''ve pretty much come to that conclusion on my own, I was just wondering if there was any way to speed things up a bit. I was originally going to propose next month, but that probably won''t happen. Like I said before, I have no problem waiting, as I love our relationship right now and we are very happy together. Thanks again!
     
  18. dockman3
    Brilliant_Rock

    Messages:
    560
    Joined:
    May 30, 2008
    by dockman3 » Jul 18, 2008
    joflier-

    Thanks for your input! I try to be on the same page with her and tell her that I value her independence. I''ve told her that before, but maybe I don''t say it enough. I"m just trying to spare her the hard times you had emotionally in your first couple years, and maybe just verbalizing it is the way to go. Thanks for the suggestion, and I''ll try to do that more!
     
  19. Lorelei
    Super_Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    40,758
    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2005
    by Lorelei » Jul 18, 2008
    You are welcome, and it could be time will work in your favour, as she gets more accustomed to the idea.
     
  20. dockman3
    Brilliant_Rock

    Messages:
    560
    Joined:
    May 30, 2008
    by dockman3 » Jul 18, 2008
    Yeah, I have a feeling she wouldn''t mind hyphenated, though we figured out that with our hyphenated names, the first boy''s name will be 29 letters long!! [​IMG] Its just a really long name.
     
  21. dockman3
    Brilliant_Rock

    Messages:
    560
    Joined:
    May 30, 2008
    by dockman3 » Jul 18, 2008
    Thanks for the input! Sadly, its not the fact that she doesn''t want to plan a wedding. She''s looked at the wedding magazines and has looked at different styles of dresses and has picked out a color scheme. She just doesn''t want to lose her identity, and in her mind, getting married is just that, losing your identity. I can let them name thing go for now. Its not a huge deal to me and I can accept her keeping her own name. It might raise some eyebrows in the future, but who cares? Its our life, not theirs.
     
  22. TravelingGal
    Super_Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    17,193
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2004
    by TravelingGal » Jul 18, 2008
    Agreed.

    My husband really was easy going about this...he said he wouldn''t want to change his name and understood if I didn''t want to change mine...especially after I told him the reason.

    I was fiercely independent for a long time. I would hyperventilate in the shower at the thought of tying myself down for the rest of my life. I''ve heard that canker sores can be caused by stress, and I had them every other week in the months before we got married.

    Then I closed my eyes, plugged my nose and jumped in. I had no problems after we got married and not a single canker sore since.
     
  23. brazen_irish_hussy
    Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    2,044
    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2006
    by brazen_irish_hussy » Jul 18, 2008
    Does she know many independant married women? All the femmenists, high earning professionals owmen, etc I knew were married, so for me it never represented that, but if she doesn''t know a lot of wmoen like that she may feel differently.

    You mentioned your peers are marrying fairly young and some are having kids. Are these women or those in her family more traditional? Or are you in a conservative area? If all I had ever seen of married women were ones who weren''t independent like me or who had been until they married, I would be scared of marriage too.

    If this is the case, maybe you can find couples like you with an independent wife so she can see it doesn''t have to be traditional.

    If I am totally off base I am sorry, its so hard to get the full story off the internet.
    Also, has she given you anything specific she is uncomfortable with? Breaking it down into, this is how we handle the name, this is how we handle money, etc, might help to
     
  24. dockman3
    Brilliant_Rock

    Messages:
    560
    Joined:
    May 30, 2008
    by dockman3 » Jul 18, 2008
    TGal-

    That''s great to hear! I''ll definitely back off on the name thing a bit and it sounds like it will just work itself out. I really hope that''s what happens. Like I''ve said all along, I just want to make this transition as easy as possible for her. Thanks for the reply!
     
  25. joflier
    Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    3,505
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    by joflier » Jul 18, 2008
    Just reading this makes me think, that perhaps she''s more open to the idea of being engaged/married than you may think. Or at least, she''s working to that point.

    Also, another thing to maybe consider is a longer engagement....maybe she''d feel more comfortable knowing that she has a good amount of time as a transition period?
     
  26. dockman3
    Brilliant_Rock

    Messages:
    560
    Joined:
    May 30, 2008
    by dockman3 » Jul 18, 2008
    Funny you should mention that. She thinks that any engagement over a year would be too long. As much as she wants to plan a wedding, she doesn''t want the stress of one being held over her for more than one year. Go figure.

    I''ve thought that her looking at the magazines and having some details picked out might indicate that she''s close, but every time I seriously bring it up, she keeps telling me to wait until at least next spring. I guess I''ll just have to wait, but sitting on this ring is killing me!! At least I got it out of the house and in a safe deposit box so I can''t obsess over it everyday!
     
  27. joflier
    Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    3,505
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    by joflier » Jul 18, 2008
    I think so.....that''s how it was with me.....when I was absolutely NOT ready, I didn''t want to hear anything about marriage or a wedding, mine or anyone else''s, not to mention looking at bridal mags. It first kinda started by my looking around on the internet at engagement rings and thinking.....hmmm......maybe its time for me to have one of those....[​IMG] Then came the wedding magazines.....but if she says wait....then as hard as it is, patience will have to do, huh?
     
  28. Miranda
    Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    4,102
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    by Miranda » Jul 18, 2008
    I''m far from financially independant as a SAHM, but, I as someone who is known for being headstrong and independant in a lot of other ways I can offer a smidge of advice. Take things slowly so she doesn''t feel suffocated and violated. It sounds as though you are doing that so that''s a great thing! I think she''s more ready than she''ll admit. She''s just scared - which is no reflection of you - it''s natural for some people. About the name change thing. Don''t worry about it if she wants to keep hers. She may change her mind. I did. It took two years and two kids, though, lol! If she doesn''t, it''s not the end of the world.
     
  29. dockman3
    Brilliant_Rock

    Messages:
    560
    Joined:
    May 30, 2008
    by dockman3 » Jul 18, 2008
    Luckily I''m the most patient guy on the planet! (Or at least I''ve been told that!) I really don''t mind waiting, as everything is great with us right now. The only real reason I wanted to push things forward a bit is that we''re taking a trip next month and I wanted to propose while we were on the trip. We''re going to Yosemite and neither of us has ever been there. We''re planning on climbing the Half Dome, which is supposed to be amazing, and I was going to ask her on the top of the mountain. She''s pretty out doorsy and I think she would love that proposal, but if she''s not ready yet, like I was hoping she would be, then I''ll have to scrap that plan and come up with a new one. That''s why I bought the ring already, because I wanted to have it for this trip. Oh well. You win some, you lose some.
     
  30. Miranda
    Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    4,102
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    by Miranda » Jul 18, 2008
    Maybe you should drop a hint about the ring. I know you want the proposal to be a surprise. It may be better if she has an idea it may be coming. When DH proposed he wanted it to be a complete surprise. I found out about it. It was actually better that way. I don''t know what I would have done if I was taken completely off guard. Our circumstances were very different from yours, though.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page