Calling all teachers - help on choosing a Masters program?

[Brown.Eyed.Girl]

I'm applying to some PhD programs in English, and also to some MAT programs for secondary education. I was wondering if you guys had any tips for applying, what programs are looking for and your experiences with them, and any recommendations for MAT (Master of Arts and Teaching) programs to look at. I want to stay on the West Coast, preferably CA, so I think I'll apply to Stanford's STEP program and USC's MAT program, but I wonder how many more schools I should apply to, to make sure I'll get into one, and what other schools I can look at.

Quick background info - I was an English and Philosophy major in college, and I just graduated with my JD from a top-10 law school, but I am seriously unhappy with law and don't want to be a lawyer. I was interested in teaching back in college, though my dream was and is to be a professor and get my PhD. However, humanities PhD programs being super super competitive, and the job market being horrible, I also want to look at teaching at the high school level.

Any help you can give me would be much appreciated! Thank you!

 

[slg47]

Re: Calling all teachers - help on choosing a Masters progra

I was just about to post that you should look at UC Berkeley's MACSME program but realized you are in English...silly me! Anyway, if you really want the PhD you should at least apply for it...

 

[Brown.Eyed.Girl]

Re: Calling all teachers - help on choosing a Masters progra

I was just about to post that you should look at UC Berkeley's MACSME program but realized you are in English...silly me! Anyway, if you really want the PhD you should at least apply for it...

Haha thanks though

And I will - just need to get all my recommenders lined up. I'm having the hardest time getting hold of one of them.... gah.

 

[Haven]

Re: Calling all teachers - help on choosing a Masters progra

WOW! I'm shocked to hear about this big decision, B.E.G.!

Okay, I don't know anything about programs in California, but I just wanted to pop into the thread and wish you luck! Teaching is, in my opinion, the greatest job in the world and I often find myself thinking "I can't believe they pay me to do this!"

As you know, I used to teach HS English, and I now teach English at a community college. CCs are different than universities, but if you're looking for some information about teaching in either environment, I'd be happy to share. The differences between teaching HS, CC, and in a university are huge, and I feel lucky that I believe I've found the right place for me. I hope you're as happy teaching as I am!

 

[Brown.Eyed.Girl]

Re: Calling all teachers - help on choosing a Masters progra

Haven, I'm really glad you saw the thread and responded - I was actually hoping you would because of your background teaching in HS and CC.

Can you give me a general rundown on pros and cons of both HS and CC teaching? Which do you prefer? How is job availability? How hard is it to get into M.Ed or MAT programs? Does teaching at a CC also qualify you for loan forgiveness in 10 years, like teaching at public secondary schools? (this is a really important point for me, if I do get into a PhD program and have to choose between that and the MAT). Did you ever consider teaching at the university-level with a PhD and if so, what made you decide not to? Basically, I'd love to pick your brain

Thank you!

 

[Haven]

Re: Calling all teachers - help on choosing a Masters progra

You know I love talking about teaching!

Okay, let me know if I accidentally skip any of your questions. And of course, all of these things are based on my experience, which is limited to the suburbs of Chicago, and certainly isn't everyone's experience.

Can you give me a general rundown on pros and cons of both HS and CC teaching?

High School Pros

- The kids. I love teaching high school kids. They're insightful and hilarious and dramatic and needy and just plain a lot of fun.

- Great sense of community. I ate lunch with my entire department every single day, I knew a huge amount of the students (2,200 total), all of the students knew me, it was easy and fun to be a part of the community by attending sports games, community events, etc. I really do miss many of my HS colleagues, and I love how closely we all worked.

- Many opportunities to co-teach, co-plan, and otherwise work with colleagues. I loved creating tandem schedules with my friends who taught the same classes in the same terms and periods, and then swapping classes for the day, going on field trips together, etc.

- Higher pay. I took over a 20% pay cut to teach CC, but I don't teach for the money and it was worth every single penny, in my opinion.

- Variety of classes. It's much easier to propose and launch new classes in a HS, or at least in my experience it is.

- My school paid for my entire MEd, and they supported us when we wanted to take a bunch of kids to Greece just because. That was pretty great.

- My classroom. I miss having my own classroom. It was a haven for "my" students, and a place where I could promote all of the current reading and writing events, and create a print-rich environment, and fill the walls with pictures of former students and create a real space for learning and growth and reading and discussion.

High School Cons

- Lack of autonomy. This is the biggest negative for me. I need a lot of autonomy in work, and it just wasn't there in HS. Yes, when I was in my classroom with my students I could teach how and what I felt was in their best interest. However, there were just so many hoops to jump through, and so many people to answer to (I had SO MANY bosses) that it was a real pain for someone like me who has a hard time answering to other people when I perceive that they're just wasting my time. (This really varies based on your administrators. My first year teaching HS we had a completely different administration and they were amazing. Then they all left and everything changed.)

- Huge teaching load. We taught six classes a year on a four by four block, which is one class more than most HS teachers teach. We taught 25 hours per week, which doesn't sound like a lot, but the teaching part is the easy part--prepping for 25 hours a week is an enormous task. Oh, and my classes were HUGE--I taught a sophomore English class with 38 students once, and ALL of my sophomore English classes always had more than 30 students. That's a lot of work, and a lot of responsibility.

- Huge extra-curricular load. This might be very unique to my former school, but non-tenured teachers pretty much carried the weight of nearly all extra-curriculars on their shoulders. I was forced to be the head coach (and only coach) of the school's speech team, which meant about five to ten hours of practice a week, and Saturday tournaments which lasted from 5 AM (meet at the school) until as late as 9 PM, depending on how far away they were. I also sponsored a couple clubs, which only took a couple hours a week, but it piles up quickly. AND, there was the pressure to chaperone dances and other activities. I basically felt like it was impossible to live the kind of life I wanted to live outside of work while still being a great teacher.

- All the extras that seemed like a huge waste of time. I filled out more paperwork, email forms, contact forms, state forms, etc. when I taught high school. I felt like I constantly had a stream of paperwork to fill out. We had a lot of useless meetings, as well, that really felt like a waste of time. Some of them were great, but OH MAN was it a struggle to make it through most of them without screaming "DOES ANYONE FEEL LIKE THIS IS WORTHWHILE?"

- The hours. This may seem silly, but it is really difficult for me to be alert at 7 AM. We started teaching at 7:45 and finished at 3:20, and by contract we had to be in the school between 7:20 and 3:20, regardless of whether or not we even taught first hour. It was just too darn early for me, seriously. I woke up every single morning and said to the mirror "I have got to get a job that starts later in the day."

- Everyone was unhappy. I love my former colleagues, and I have wonderful memories of them, but in general, everyone there was pretty unhappy. There was constant complaining, bickering, whining, moaning, groaning, scoffing, and eye rolling. It's the type of thing that wears one down after a while. (That's not to say that I blame anyone for it, but it was extremely tiring, especially for a happy person like me.)

- The anti-administration mentality. There was a real them vs. us situation between teachers and admins at my former school. It made progress nearly impossible, and meetings very uncomfortable.

Community College Pros

The students. My students are wonderful. I can't say I like them any more or less than I liked my HS students, but I sure do enjoy working with them.

The autonomy. I work for a school that believes they do a good job of hiring qualified professionals, and they treat us as such. I thrive in this type of situation, so it's been really wonderful for me.

The teaching load. I teach 15 hours per week, full-time, and I cannot stress how much of a difference this makes. I feel like I am so much more effective now because I have the time I need to reflect on class, respond to student work and needs, provide quality ongoing formative feedback, prepare my classes, etc. This is HUGE for me.

The work load. In addition to teaching, I hold ten office hours per week, I attend two to four meetings a month for my division and department, and I'll be joining professional committees in the upcoming semester. There is no pressure to take on responsibilities for which I am not qualified or prepared. AND, they support and encourage my participation in professional organizations. Our focus is on teaching, contribution to the college, and contribution to my professional community. And I actually have time to do all of those things.

The hours. Teaching at the CC is much more flexible than teaching HS. I've schedule all of my classes to begin no earlier than 9:30 next semester, which is really nice.

My colleagues. The majority of my colleagues are happy people, they like what they do, and they love their fields. I finally feel like I'm surrounded with people who are as passionate about their specialties as I am about mine. It's really nice.

The vacations! I thought my working year was short when I taught HS, but it's even shorter now. We have a month off in the winter, a week in the spring, and a longer summer. HS had a 180 day school year, CC has a 159 day school year. I'm not saying I don't like to work, I do, but the extra vacation time is pretty nice.

Community College Cons

- The pay. As I said earlier, I took over a 20% pay cut to teach CC. I knew this before I made the decision to switch, and I willingly left my HS job, so obviously it was worth it in my opinion.

- It can be a bit solitary. I eat lunch in my office every day, I only see my colleagues outside of meetings if I happen to run into them. This is, of course, because we aren't all on the same schedule, and that flexible schedule is something I love. But I do miss being close to nearly everyone in my department.

- I miss my classroom. But now I have an office, whereas in HS I just had a desk pushed against a wall in a room with 20 other desks. But I still miss my classroom.

- This is a big pond. I definitely enjoyed being a big fish in a small pond in HS. I miss the days of having groups of students studying in my classroom after school just because they felt like it, or screaming my name down the hallway as I walked by. I miss knowing the majority of the students in the school by name. I feel very anonymous as I walk around the college, and that's fine, it's just very different. The HS felt like home, and the college does not. BUT, part of that is good, because I also felt like I LIVED in that high school, whereas I do not feel that at all teaching college.

Which do you prefer?

I prefer community college, no question. I can't imagine that I will ever go back to teaching high school. (But I am keeping my certificates up to date, just in case!)

How is job availability?

It's tough all around. I feel very lucky, EXTREMELY lucky, to have gotten a FT, tenure-track position teaching community college, because the jobs are really scarce. More than half of our English courses are taught by adjunct instructors, so there just aren't that many FT position available at all. High school jobs are a bit easier to come by, but they're still difficult to find, as well.

How hard is it to get into M.Ed or MAT programs?

It depends entirely upon the program. Based on your academic experience, I imagine that the programs you'd be interested in would be difficult to get into. HOWEVER, I have complete faith that YOU would be admitted. No worries there, as far as I can see it!

Does teaching at a CC also qualify you for loan forgiveness in 10 years, like teaching at public secondary schools?

I have no idea. I've actually never heard of loan forgiveness for teaching in a public secondary school.

Did you ever consider teaching at the university-level with a PhD and if so, what made you decide not to?

Nope, not at all. I really feel that the CC is the best teaching position out there, FOR ME, and it would not be any better at a four year university. I love that my primary focus is still on teaching, and I'm not interested in giving that up to spend more time researching or doing something else. I have considered earning my PhD, but I'm still not sure if I'd like to study something related to literacy, or something related to literature. I'm quite torn between the two, and until I have a very clear idea of which I'd rather pursue, I'm going to keep on using my free time to write.

I work with many people who used to teach in four year universities or colleges, and have chosen to come to the CC. On the flip side, I know people who have left CCs to work in four year universities. I think it's all about finding the balance, and the school, that works best for you.

I imagine I will always consider myself a teacher first, and that's why the CC is the right place for me. I am very involved in my field, and I love doing research and presenting at conferences, and doing all of those things. But I am a teacher, first and foremost, and I can't see myself being happy doing any less teaching than I'm doing right now.

If you've gotten this far, I'm impressed! Sorry to write so much. Let me know if you have any questions, or if anything is unclear. I'm so excited for you that you're making this change. I earned my MAT after undergrad, and then went back to earn my MEd, and I'm so glad that I did both.

ETA: Now that I've reread this post I feel the need to clarify:

I prefer the lighter teaching and work load because teaching too many students for too many hours per week makes it nearly impossible to be an effective, reflective, engaging, and adaptive teacher. It's not just because I'm a lazy arse who wants more time to myself. I do prefer more time to myself, but I also prefer to be a good teacher, and I felt that I just couldn't do it when I was teaching so much.

 

[zoebartlett]

Re: Calling all teachers - help on choosing a Masters progra

BEG -- You may know that I teach at the elementary level, so while I can't help you directly, my mom just retired after YEARS of teaching HS English and writing. For her last year, which ended in June, she worked as an administrator at her school. The HS she worked at is a little different from traditional high schools. It's part of something called the Coalition of Essential Schools, and she's worked closely with NSRF (National School Reform). I'd be happy to forward your questions to her if you'd like. Just let me know.

 

[swimmer]

Re: Calling all teachers - help on choosing a Masters progra

BEG, as far as I know, loan forgiveness is only for high need student populations in high need subject areas like physics. There are federal programs for loan forgiveness and state, so look into it first. I am willing to bet there is no loan forgiveness for working in a CC or JC as there is no need for it..meaning that there are lots of people who want the jobs. My exp in ccs is similar to Haven's, they paid better than some unis if you were trying to pick up a class here or there and were serious about if you could teach or not (one gave me an English proficiency exam!) Here most ccs are really looking only at terminal degrees, but that is b/c we have a glut of unemployed over-educated folks. Check out charter schools, they do require you to work 24/7 and don't pay well for the easy to find teachers (eng, hist) but they don't require certifications. I do know someone in a rural area who teaches cc with her JD, history and econ classes. She also teaches in a jail, apparently law is very popular thing to study there! I would not suggest that job for your tiny person!

I'm glad you are looking at MAT degrees, they can be faster than MEd, just 12 months, and more practical, plus your previous grad level classes might count. Will email you more later. busy day busy day... actually am on Comm Ave, turning in chapter 4 right now, and its sleeting!

 

[PilsnPinkysMom]

Re: Calling all teachers - help on choosing a Masters progra

BEG- I don't have any suggestions for you, but I wanted to wish you luck as you pursue this new profession!

I couldn't stand law school to the point of leaving half way through my second year, and my happiness has increased dramatically since starting on the education-path. I love secondary-level kids, social studies, and working with "hard to serve" youth. It's exhausting, but in a different way than law school... and I think the rewards are far greater (but I'm biased!)

Anyway- it's wonderful that you're following your heart! I'm excited to hear how the application process goes, and know you'll be accepted into whatever program you desire.

 

[Porridge]

Re: Calling all teachers - help on choosing a Masters progra

I often find myself thinking "I can't believe they pay me to do this!"

This is my greatest wish, to find a career that makes me feel like that!

B.E.G. - best of luck with your applications. Congratulations on going for what you want.

 

[swimmer]

Re: Calling all teachers - help on choosing a Masters progra

How goes the decision making process?

You could start off the bat by taking the PRAXIS, many states require you to take it to be certified, I know you will pass it. I have no idea what state you will want to teach in, but certification varies by state. Though I know that some states have reciprocity and waivers and such. Esp market your languages lady! Any district would be thrilled to have you. <- you but without the goatee, cool geeky teacher.

 

[Brown.Eyed.Girl]

Re: Calling all teachers - help on choosing a Masters progra

Hi guys! I'm so, so sorry I didn't come back to this thread earlier. THANK YOU SO MUCH everyone. Seriously, your advice has been incredibly valuable.

I've basically decided to apply only to M.Ed/MAT programs - no PhD programs - in CA. I'm definitely applying to Stanford's STEP program, and USC and UCLA. I'm considering adding Claremont too.

I'm just worried that I won't get in to any. I mean, I know I'm a pretty good applicant. I majored in English (I'd be doing secondary education with specialization in English), did really well in college and graduated magna, college honors and with Distinction in English (gained through a senior thesis), I have my JD from a top ten law school, I'm fluent in Korean and proficient in Spanish. But, I haven't had that much experience working with youth (I did a lot of peer tutoring and stuff in college though, and I did a lot of leadership activities - I was President of Pre-Law Society for 2 years, and Editor-in-Chief/President of Pre-Law Review and of the Honors Program publication. I also did a lot of mentoring stuff with foreign attorneys/LLM students at my law school, reaching out to undergrads as part of the admissions committee and doing Big Sibling mentoring with first-year law students. But none of those are really teaching-specific.

I did drop off an app for substitute teaching, but no interviews until after Thanksgiving. Thankfully the M.Ed/MAT programs' deadlines are later than PhDs - I have until January at the earliest, I believe, for the programs I chose.

I still need to take the CBEST/CSET exams for CA but since I'm out of state I don't need the scores when I apply - I'm signed up to take the CBEST in Jan. and I need to take the CSET (the subject specific exams) sometime soon thereafter. Stanford requires GRE scores and I did very well in verbal, and very meh on math. I don't have my analytical writing score yet.

I guess I just need some advice from people in education - how competitive is this process? I'm used to applying to 10 top tier law schools in the hopes that you get into some ... I don't know what's overboard in terms of numbers or what's too little for education programs, and I'd hate to apply to too few and not get into any, but at the same time I don't want to apply to too many (these are not cheap). My friends/high school teachers/college professors, etc. all say I'm a shoo-in but I just really don't know!

Eep.

 

[katamari]

Re: Calling all teachers - help on choosing a Masters progra

B.E.G., from everything I have known/seen most EdD's earn their degrees while working in education or while taking an only brief hiatus. It is, as a result, not as rigorous as grad programs that forbid you to work other jobs. At my previous grad school and my current institution, to get into our Education graduate program, you only had to get a 400 and 500 (respectively) combined GRE score. Of course, to get fellowships and assistanceships, you had to be more competitive. However, it was easy to get in, mainly because in both states there was mandatory MAs and required continuing education for all state-employed teachers.

One thing I will say is, if you have many loans from law school, you probably do not want to go on for an English PhD. The MLA keeps data on this, but from reading the Chronicle of Higher Ed very regularly, it seems that humanities TT profs regularly make $35-45K. (And this is with a placement rate of under 50% of PhDs in tenure-track jobs). I would struggle to repay my own education debt on that salary and it is far less than most law school debt.

 

[Brown.Eyed.Girl]

Re: Calling all teachers - help on choosing a Masters progra

B.E.G., from everything I have known/seen most EdD's earn their degrees while working in education or while taking an only brief hiatus. It is, as a result, not as rigorous as grad programs that forbid you to work other jobs. At my previous grad school and my current institution, to get into our Education graduate program, you only had to get a 400 and 500 (respectively) combined GRE score. Of course, to get fellowships and assistanceships, you had to be more competitive. However, it was easy to get in, mainly because in both states there was mandatory MAs and required continuing education for all state-employed teachers.

One thing I will say is, if you have many loans from law school, you probably do not want to go on for an English PhD. The MLA keeps data on this, but from reading the Chronicle of Higher Ed very regularly, it seems that humanities TT profs regularly make $35-45K. (And this is with a placement rate of under 50% of PhDs in tenure-track jobs). I would struggle to repay my own education debt on that salary and it is far less than most law school debt.

Hey Katamari! Thanks so much for responding! I'm not sure - I know my BFF who teaches 6th grade is getting her M.Ed online while working. The programs I'm applying to are 12 mos. full-time however, and they're basically for people who haven't taken any education courses and need to get state certification along with the degree. I think UCLA and Stanford's programs are M.Ed. USC's is MAT. I think. It's been a long day and I could totally be making that up

Definitely not going for English PhD. Maybe later in life, when the loans are paid off. It's a dream but not one, in the end, I'm willing to pursue for the next 7 years or so with nearly $200K in debt accumulating interest (especially with no guarantees that I'd be able to get a job once I graduated). One of my recommenders is a Visiting Prof at my college. He and I have chatted at length recently over this - he knows exactly how hard it is to get tenure-track, and he's brilliant, witty, and engaging, has won teaching awards from my college, is beloved by students and I know people in my classes have written to the Dept. Head asking him to hire him permanently. But you know, bad economy, and a bad job market even in a good economy. Must be practical.

I'm writing all my essays now. Apparently I have really strong beliefs on education policy that hasn't come up before! Hopefully I'll be able to start subbing soon, and do some volunteer stuff at my BFF's school (she thinks the principal might write me a recommendation too), and I'm hoping to get involved with high school debate again (on the coaching end of course).