Buying loose no cert diamonds?

[0carat]

Does anyone have experience buying loose diamonds that aren’t certified?

I am located in Canada and I’ve found a place in the states (NC) that sells loose stones that they buy privately/wholesale. I e-mailed them in the past and asked them to let me know when they get something that meets my needs. I just received an email with the specs carat size/clarity/colour of a new stone that arrived but that’s all the information I am given. I asked if there is a cert and they said no, the stone is sold as is. I emailed back asking how do they know the clarity/colour if there are no specs (still waiting on a response).

What is the best way to find the specs of the stone and to verify its quality? Is this something that should be done by an independent jeweler, how accurate is that? Can I have GIA issue a report on it, how much would that cost? I can even fly out there on a weekend and take care of everything in a day and fly back, but before I get in over my head I’d like to hear what PS’ers have to say.

Thanks.

 

[0carat]

I also have a question on ebay stones.

I don't understand what "Type: Enhanced" is? I notice on ebay a lot of the diamonds state this.

Why is a diamond like this so cheap?

http://cgi.ebay.com/1-2-carat-F-VS2-Round-Certified-Natural-Loose-Diamond-/330506515764?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4cf3b93534

 

[slg47]

enhanced usually means clarity enhanced. this quote is from the seller

We specialize in clarity enhanced diamonds. These are natural diamonds mined from the earth. After the diamond is cut and polished, it undergoes another special treatment which surgically removes some of the visible inclusions. Our diamonds are not enhanced in any way other than clarity.

as far as your original post, I am not sure that I would trust uncerted diamonds. You can send to GIA for $200 (I think that is the figure I read?) but then what happens if it is not as stated by the seller? GIA process I think takes around 2 weeks, but I could be wrong about this.

 

[antelope1]

I am ok buying a no cert diamond (say a vintage piece) if it has an independent appraisal (with an appraiser of your choosing), and the price is right (use the PS search feature to figure out what is the "right" range). If this is a vintage or estate piece, I would knock it down some % from that of the "new" pieces you find on PS.

Alternatively, you can ask them to get a GIA cert for $200 -- if you buy it, you'll pay $200 extra to cover the cost of the cert, but if it's not close (within 1 color and clarity grade) of what they stated, you should negotiate hard on price -- if you want it.

 

[denverappraiser]

'Enhanced' is a BIG DEAL.

Depending on what their grading system is and what you are comparing it with, CE stones can be as little as 1/10 of the cost of a properly documented untreated natural stone. The language for describing them is extremely different even though the acronyms look similar. SI1-enhanced, for example, has nothing whatever to do with GIA-SI1 clarity.

Do some research with Google. Search on 'fracture filled diamond', 'clarity enhanced diamond' and 'yehuda diamond'. Don't do this deal until you understand what it means. It's one of the forbidden topics here but you can learn more about it elsewhere.

 

[denverappraiser]

enhanced usually means clarity enhanced. this quote is from the seller

We specialize in clarity enhanced diamonds. These are natural diamonds mined from the earth. After the diamond is cut and polished, it undergoes another special treatment which surgically removes some of the visible inclusions. Our diamonds are not enhanced in any way other than clarity.

as far as your original post, I am not sure that I would trust uncerted diamonds. You can send to GIA for $200 (I think that is the figure I read?) but then what happens if it is not as stated by the seller? GIA process I think takes around 2 weeks, but I could be wrong about this.

SLG47,

GIA's fees vary with the size of the stone and exactly what services are requested but here is their price list.
http://www.gia.edu/lab-reports-services/fees_payment/lab_fees/USD_feeschedule_Diamond_081210.pdf

Don't forget insured shipping each way for people who don't live in Carlsbad CA or NYC.

 

[0carat]

enhanced usually means clarity enhanced. this quote is from the seller

We specialize in clarity enhanced diamonds. These are natural diamonds mined from the earth. After the diamond is cut and polished, it undergoes another special treatment which surgically removes some of the visible inclusions. Our diamonds are not enhanced in any way other than clarity.

as far as your original post, I am not sure that I would trust uncerted diamonds. You can send to GIA for $200 (I think that is the figure I read?) but then what happens if it is not as stated by the seller? GIA process I think takes around 2 weeks, but I could be wrong about this.

SLG47,

GIA's fees vary with the size of the stone and exactly what services are requested but here is their price list.
http://www.gia.edu/lab-reports-services/fees_payment/lab_fees/USD_feeschedule_Diamond_081210.pdf

Don't forget insured shipping each way for people who don't live in Carlsbad CA or NYC.

I talked to the store owner just now about this and I am just not sure what to do.

The stone is from an estate sale and the price is pretty good. I asked if they would send it to GIA and they said that's too long of a process and that's not how they work.

The only way i can commit to this is if I had another jeweler go and look at it. I asked her to take pics of the stone next to a GIA certified stone that's of similar specs and email them to me. I will get those tomorrow, but again those are just pictures. I don't want to discard this option because it may reasonable...the store has pretty decent reviews.

This is located near Raleigh, NC. Is there gemologist on call or something haha? Maybe a website that has a list of them? The owner is a GIA certified gemologist, but there is obviously a vested interest in selling the stone so I am not sure if I can rely on that. I am obviously going to pay for their time to go to the store and examine it. If it checks out, I buy it, if not I lose some cash and move on.

Thoughts?

 

[0carat]

BTW, it's a 1.17 carat VS1/H

What would be a reasonable price for it?

 

[MarkBroumand]

Is it natural or enhanced?

 

[Dancing Fire]

What is the best way to find the specs of the stone and to verify its quality? Is this something that should be done by an independent jeweler, how accurate is that? Can I have GIA issue a report on it, how much would that cost? I can even fly out there on a weekend and take care of everything in a day and fly back, but before I get in over my head I’d like to hear what PS’ers have to say.
Thanks.

you are asking for trouble...

 

[Dancing Fire]

BTW, it's a 1.17 carat VS1/H
What would be a reasonable price for it?

who said that??

 

[0carat]

Is it natural or enhanced?

That's a good question, I will ask tomorrow.

What is it worth if it wasn't enhanced? Also, could their GIA appraiser be able to tell the difference by examining it? Wouldn't they also have to disclose the fact that it's enhanced if it was?

Thanks.

 

[0carat]

BTW, it's a 1.17 carat VS1/H
What would be a reasonable price for it?

who said that??

The GIA appraiser.

 

[Dancing Fire]

BTW, it's a 1.17 carat VS1/H

What would be a reasonable price for it?

what's the asking price?

 

[slg47]

ok is this their appraiser or an independent appraiser? honestly you don't know a lot about this diamond, so I would pass.

a search for 1.16-1.18 carat, H VS1, GIA certified lists prices from $6500-$8500. if you change to VS2 prices are $5600-$7500. I'm not even sure if that's helpful at all but those are ballpark ranges for diamonds listed now with GIA reports.

 

[0carat]

BTW, it's a 1.17 carat VS1/H

What would be a reasonable price for it?

what's the asking price?

What do you think it's worth?

 

[0carat]

ok is this their appraiser or an independent appraiser? honestly you don't know a lot about this diamond, so I would pass.

a search for 1.16-1.18 carat, H VS1, GIA certified lists prices from $6500-$8500. if you change to VS2 prices are $5600-$7500. I'm not even sure if that's helpful at all but those are ballpark ranges for diamonds listed now with GIA reports.

It's their own appraiser.

I'd like to know if there is a service or a database of GIA appraisers that I can contact. I'd pay for someone independent to go and look at the ring for me.

 

[slg47]

ok is this their appraiser or an independent appraiser? honestly you don't know a lot about this diamond, so I would pass.

a search for 1.16-1.18 carat, H VS1, GIA certified lists prices from $6500-$8500. if you change to VS2 prices are $5600-$7500. I'm not even sure if that's helpful at all but those are ballpark ranges for diamonds listed now with GIA reports.

It's their own appraiser.

I'd like to know if there is a service or a database of GIA appraisers that I can contact. I'd pay for someone independent to go and look at the ring for me.

PS has a list of independent appraisers under resources. what is the asking price?

 

[0carat]

4k

 

[slg47]

yeah so if it is indeed H, VS1, 1.17 carat that seems like a good price BUT I wouldn't spend that amount of money without getting it checked out first. Also, you have 0 information about cut quality which makes a huge difference in the way the diamond looks

 

[0carat]

yeah so if it is indeed H, VS1, 1.17 carat that seems like a good price BUT I wouldn't spend that amount of money without getting it checked out first. Also, you have 0 information about cut quality which makes a huge difference in the way the diamond looks

That's exactly my issue, out of this whole diamond shopping deal I want excellent cut. Thanks for letting me know about the independent appraisers, i just found one 10 minutes from the shop and have contacted her to see if she can go there and examine it.

 

[Dancing Fire]

4k

$4000?? RUN... ain't no way this is a H VS1 stone.

what is the diameter of this stone??

 

[slg47]

yeah i'm assuming it's not a great cut (since most diamonds aren't) and the price seems suspect, so maybe it's not even worth spending the $$ on the appraiser?

 

[Anon-E-Mouse]

$4000?? RUN... ain't no way this is a H VS1 stone.

I'm no diamond expert but I do have some experience with estate sales and the like. I say don't just run. . . push the pedal to the metal and don't look back. I'm certain that $4k will buy you a very nice legit diamond -- with papers -- through normal channels.

 

[0carat]

So no one really knows much about this and is just stating their opinion, which is based on hearsay?

Great, thanks.

Anyone with some legitimate input?

 

[Dancing Fire]

So no one really knows much about this and is just stating their opinion, which is based on hearsay?

Great, thanks.

Anyone with some legitimate input?

..

let me ask you this Q...why would they sell you a $7000 stone for $4000?

 

[antelope1]

So no one really knows much about this and is just stating their opinion, which is based on hearsay?

Great, thanks.

Anyone with some legitimate input?

Err. You're going off the "hearsay" of the vendor at this point. So it's someone (whom you admit) who has a vested interest in selling you something (which may or may not be worth -- at wholesale, even -- what he is offering you)

vs

PSers who aren't out for your money...(in general, according to forum rules)...

If the vendor says that he's not going to send a diamond to GIA to be cert'ed -- but knows that if he sends it to GIA (and it comes back with the right color and clarity) he could get 2x what he's asking now -- is setting money on fire. If you owned a business, and you could get an extra $3k for a $200 outlay + a couple months, wouldn't you do it? That is a GREAT rate of return! Unless...you (the vendor) know that it's not really what you're saying it is. Hm.

Your best bet is to look up independent appraisers within a few miles of this guy, or persuade him to ship it to a well-respected independent appraiser in the US (say, David Wolf in NYC). If you are happy with the appraisal report, you pay shipping and the appraisal fee and buy the diamond. Shipping it to an appraiser will only take 2 days longer than finding one locally in NC.

 

[Anon-E-Mouse]

So no one really knows much about this

Without an appraisal or at least a cert nobody, including the seller, knows anything. This much is common sense.

 

[LGK]

You could probably find an attractive antique cut diamond (like Old European Cut, Old Mine Cut etc.) doing what you're doing now- looking secondhand for uncerted diamonds, that is. I do that myself and you can find good deals. However- if you don't have a decent amount of experience looking at diamonds, and you aren't going through a very trusted vendor, shopping second hand, you are likely to get burned. Sorry, I know that's really not what you want to hear, but it is quite true unfortunately.

And if an excellent cut modern round brilliant is what you're looking for, that's even less likely, especially in the scenario you're describing. Sure, you can find them secondhand, but frankly without a cert and long distance? Total crapshoot. And with a lot of $ on the line too.

Instead, if you really are up for looking for a used modern diamond, I'd only look for diamonds with a GIA or AGL cert if you're not looking in person. You can still find those used. You may need to broaden your parameters, though, either by looking through other vendors or by looking at different carat/color/clarity combos.

If you really want to look secondhand seriously, first, if I were you, I would go look at some really well cut diamonds in person. Jared's carries the Peerless line, which are AGL 0 ideal cuts, or Hearts on Fire is another line of beautifully cut diamonds. Also look at some lower colors to see what they actually look like. Then and only then, go looking at second hand goods in person. Preferably with an idealscope and a loupe in hand and some idea how to use them. An educated eye is really invaluable in such a search.

Yeah, it is more work. It takes more time. It can be fun and save you money however. But walking in blind and hoping for the best is not a good recipe for success.

In terms of the stone you're looking at, who knows- the color and clarity might be ballpark what GIA would grade it at. Most likely not, but could be. However, the cut? Is very, very, very likely to be crap. There is a *reason* for the low price, and a reason the seller isn't keen on sending it to GIA. The cut is probably a big part of it, and also the color and clarity is probably estimated high, too. The odds are just really good that's the case.

Here's some places to check for second hand deals: JewelsbyEricaGrace.com, DoverJewelry.com. They mostly do antique but they both get some modern stuff in from time to time too. I mostly look for antique goods, and can definitely recommend some other places to check for that, but modern used diamonds, not so much. Oh, and Pearlman's Jewelers too- they do consigment.

Oh, and with any used jewelry bought sight unseen- I never, ever, ever buy without a return period. Ever. And if it's something with a lot of $ on the line, take it to an independant appraiser pronto, within the return period. Keep in mind, lots of small sellers, like on ebay for example, will say "no returns" but if you ask, will make exceptions.

(I know I'm being rather blunt here, but nobody wants to see you get burned, that's all Good luck on your search and I do hope you find something fabulous!)

 

[0carat]

You could probably find an attractive antique cut diamond (like Old European Cut, Old Mine Cut etc.) doing what you're doing now- looking secondhand for uncerted diamonds, that is. I do that myself and you can find good deals. However- if you don't have a decent amount of experience looking at diamonds, and you aren't going through a very trusted vendor, shopping second hand, you are likely to get burned. Sorry, I know that's really not what you want to hear, but it is quite true unfortunately.

And if an excellent cut modern round brilliant is what you're looking for, that's even less likely, especially in the scenario you're describing. Sure, you can find them secondhand, but frankly without a cert and long distance? Total crapshoot. And with a lot of $ on the line too.

Instead, if you really are up for looking for a used modern diamond, I'd only look for diamonds with a GIA or AGL cert if you're not looking in person. You can still find those used. You may need to broaden your parameters, though, either by looking through other vendors or by looking at different carat/color/clarity combos.

If you really want to look secondhand seriously, first, if I were you, I would go look at some really well cut diamonds in person. Jared's carries the Peerless line, which are AGL 0 ideal cuts, or Hearts on Fire is another line of beautifully cut diamonds. Also look at some lower colors to see what they actually look like. Then and only then, go looking at second hand goods in person. Preferably with an idealscope and a loupe in hand and some idea how to use them. An educated eye is really invaluable in such a search.

Yeah, it is more work. It takes more time. It can be fun and save you money however. But walking in blind and hoping for the best is not a good recipe for success.

In terms of the stone you're looking at, who knows- the color and clarity might be ballpark what GIA would grade it at. Most likely not, but could be. However, the cut? Is very, very, very likely to be crap. There is a *reason* for the low price, and a reason the seller isn't keen on sending it to GIA. The cut is probably a big part of it, and also the color and clarity is probably estimated high, too. The odds are just really good that's the case.

Here's some places to check for second hand deals: JewelsbyEricaGrace.com, DoverJewelry.com. They mostly do antique but they both get some modern stuff in from time to time too. I mostly look for antique goods, and can definitely recommend some other places to check for that, but modern used diamonds, not so much. Oh, and Pearlman's Jewelers too- they do consigment.

Oh, and with any used jewelry bought sight unseen- I never, ever, ever buy without a return period. Ever. And if it's something with a lot of $ on the line, take it to an independant appraiser pronto, within the return period. Keep in mind, lots of small sellers, like on ebay for example, will say "no returns" but if you ask, will make exceptions.

(I know I'm being rather blunt here, but nobody wants to see you get burned, that's all Good luck on your search and I do hope you find something fabulous!)

Thanks for the post, this is what I was looking for.

The jeweler will send me pics later today beside a gia graded stone, i will post them.

I talked to another appraiser and I've decided that I will not buy this diamond unless they send it out to GIA for grading. I called GIA and the turn around time is about a week. I will offer the jeweler to pay for the shipping/insurance and grading, if it checks out I will buy, if not they get a free GIA report out of it.

Not sure what else I can do.