buying diamond ring in Israel

[holeniche]

Hello,

I'm visiting Israel for work and will stay here for a few months. I'm thinking of buying an engagement ring during my visit here. I read that people can make appointments with shops at the "Bursa" (The Israel Diamond Exchange) and purchase diamond rings there.

Does anyone have experiences buying diamonds from there? Is there anything I should be aware of? It will be my first diamond purchase and so I'll only look for stones with GIA certs.

Thanks!

 

[Sunstorm]

It is not any cheaper there than in any other place in the world unless you can actually enter the bourse building and buy really wholesale. Anything else will not be wholesale even if it is called that and you will have to be extremely careful because just like at the NYC Diamond District, there is a high chance of getting ripped off. While a GIA cert helps avoid some problems, in general you would be much safer buying from the vendors recommended by people on this forum, some of whom are actually located in Israel as well.

 

[OoohShiny]

@diagem is the man behind the www.gemconcepts.net website (Instagram page: https://www.instagram.com/gemconcepts/) and he is based in Israel.

If you can visit him, you will be able to see some lovely diamonds and other gems

 

[WinkHPD]

When you go, be sure to know what parameters you are willing to accept if you are looking at rounds. I have seen some incredible diamonds cut in Israel, and some of the worst.

Just like every diamond market, you need to know the parameters you will except and the prices you would pay in those other markets to know if you are being offered a bargain or an overpriced sucker's deal.

If you are looking at diamond shapes other than rounds, then you will be buying with your eyes more than with paper, so know ahead of time what a great diamond of the shape you are interested in looks like.

Most importantly, ENJOY THE JOURNEY!

Wink

 

[holeniche]

Thanks for the advises!

I think I will try to visit the shops inside the building, but since I haven't been there I'm not exactly if that means the prices are really "wholesale". I also read that shops outside the buildings (but in the area) are not reliable. So I will only stick to those that are members of the exchange.

Anyway, before I go, I will look up the prices of the diamonds offered by the online vendors using this website to get a sense of the price range I should be looking for.

If any of you could recommend some vendors located in Israel I'd very much appreciate that. (I did a search here but it seems there is very little discussion about diamond vendors in Israel on the forum.)

I'll be looking for a round diamond. I read some tutorials here but I still find it a bit hard to be familiar with the parameters in the HCA, which seem to be particularly important for an engagement ring setting. But I suppose I can get hold of the GIA Report # to find out more after first visit, correct? So what should I pay attention to when I look at a round diamond in person, in addition to the information given by the numbers on the report?

@OoohShiny Thanks! It seems that his shop is in the diamond exchange district (not sure if it's located inside though). I will shoot him a PM/email to see if I can pay him a visit.

 

[foxinsox]

Use the cheat sheet parameters below which should put you in the ballpark for great light return. They’ll all be listed on the report. Don’t rule out AGS certs either.
54-57 table
60-62.4 depth
34-35 crown
40.6-40.9 pavilion
75-80 LGF
You want to make sure the crown and pavilion compliment each other. 35/40.6 or 34/40.9.

 

[OoohShiny]

When you go, be sure to know what parameters you are willing to accept if you are looking at rounds. I have seen some incredible diamonds cut in Israel, and some of the worst.

Just like every diamond market, you need to know the parameters you will except and the prices you would pay in those other markets to know if you are being offered a bargain or an overpriced sucker's deal.

If you are looking at diamond shapes other than rounds, then you will be buying with your eyes more than with paper, so know ahead of time what a great diamond of the shape you are interested in looks like.

Most importantly, ENJOY THE JOURNEY!

Wink

I would love to go diamond shopping with you, Wink

 

[MarionC]

@diagem is the man behind the www.gemconcepts.net website (Instagram page: https://www.instagram.com/gemconcepts/) and he is based in Israel.

If you can visit him, you will be able to see some lovely diamonds and other gems

I second this! It would be an amazing diamond experience with a great guy.

 

[denverappraiser]

Why do this?

This may produce a good story to tell your grandkids, which is a fine enough reason, but be aware that you almost certainly will be paying more and your risks will be higher. This is a high dollar foreign transaction and it's a one-off retail sale for the so-called wholesaler. Also be aware that you may owe some taxes when you come home (depending on where home is and details like whether the stone is mounted or not). Check the rules and be sure to include that in your budget.

 

[sledge]

Are you going to be okay not having a return policy, trade-up policy, etc? Most likely this will be a no-frills experience with lots of risk.

I'd have a blast, but I'm picky and love to negotiate. I'm worried you may not be armed with the knowledge to make a good purchase in your own best interest, no offense meant.

A few thoughts:

• Open up your stone search to GIA or AGS graded stones. AGS > GIA for the mere fact AGS uses 3D modeling and can objectively determine a true cut grade. For AGS, you want an Ideal 0 cut.
• Utilize the parameters provided by @foxinsox to help narrow potential stones.
  
• For GIA stones that you narrowed down using ideal parameters, run the data through the HCA calculator. You'd like a stone that scores 1-2. This is an elimination tool, meaning 1.5 is no better than 2. It just confirms the angles, table and depth of the stone you are looking at is a potential candidate.
  • https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca
  • FYI, HCA does not apply to AGS certified stones, as the 3D modeling and cut grade supersedes the HCA results
• Purchase either an idealscope or ASET scope. Prefer ASET myself, or both if you so desire. Learn to read both so you can identify a well cut stone and when there is leakage.
• If possible, post results back here and ask for advise prior to purchasing.
  
• Utilize websites like WF, HPD, BGD, BN, JA, etc to help establish current market prices for stones with similar specs.
• Negotiate...negotiate...negotiate!
• If you aren't sure, a deal doesn't feel right, etc. then don't be afraid to walk.

Do you happen to have a budget and criteria established already? Just wondering if we can find you an awesome stone now, so you can go on your trip and enjoy the experience but not have the added pressure of buying.

 

[holeniche]

Why do this?

This may produce a good story to tell your grandkids, which is a fine enough reason, but be aware that you almost certainly will be paying more and your risks will be higher. This is a high dollar foreign transaction and it's a one-off retail sale for the so-called wholesaler. Also be aware that you may owe some taxes when you come home (depending on where home is and details like whether the stone is mounted or not). Check the rules and be sure to include that in your budget.

Thanks! I understand the risk, and so I'm not 100% committed to buying it from here. I'm still interested in visiting the shops here and see how the prices differ from other places. For sure I won't be buying anything during my first (few) visits! I'll be in Israel for 6 months and so I'll take my time and make sure I get a decent deal if there is one.

The diamond is for an engagement ring so I'll have it mounted. If I did buy the ring then I'd certainly hope that by the time I leave the country, it would be sitting on my girlfriend's hand! (Planning to pop the question when she's visiting, *if* I do have a ring ready by then.)

Are you going to be okay not having a return policy, trade-up policy, etc? Most likely this will be a no-frills experience with lots of risk.

I'd have a blast, but I'm picky and love to negotiate. I'm worried you may not be armed with the knowledge to make a good purchase in your own best interest, no offense meant.

A few thoughts:

• Open up your stone search to GIA or AGS graded stones. AGS > GIA for the mere fact AGS uses 3D modeling and can objectively determine a true cut grade. For AGS, you want an Ideal 0 cut.
• Utilize the parameters provided by @foxinsox to help narrow potential stones.
  
• For GIA stones that you narrowed down using ideal parameters, run the data through the HCA calculator. You'd like a stone that scores 1-2. This is an elimination tool, meaning 1.5 is no better than 2. It just confirms the angles, table and depth of the stone you are looking at is a potential candidate.
  • https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca
  • FYI, HCA does not apply to AGS certified stones, as the 3D modeling and cut grade supersedes the HCA results
• Purchase either an idealscope or ASET scope. Prefer ASET myself, or both if you so desire. Learn to read both so you can identify a well cut stone and when there is leakage.
• If possible, post results back here and ask for advise prior to purchasing.
  
• Utilize websites like WF, HPD, BGD, BN, JA, etc to help establish current market prices for stones with similar specs.
• Negotiate...negotiate...negotiate!
• If you aren't sure, a deal doesn't feel right, etc. then don't be afraid to walk.

Do you happen to have a budget and criteria established already? Just wondering if we can find you an awesome stone now, so you can go on your trip and enjoy the experience but not have the added pressure of buying.

A few questions.

• Is AGS stricter than GIA in every aspect? (I understand it's better than GIA in terms of determining a cut grade because of 3D modeling.)
• Do shops usually offer an idealscope or ASET scope for customers to see the diamonds?
• Definitely will be posting the reports here before making any purchase

Yes, I have a budget of $8500-$9500, and I am looking for a round diamond with

~1.05 carat
Color F-G (need to see if I can distinguish between F and G in person)
Clarity SI1+
XXX/000 cut

Is this a reasonable budget for such a stone? I plan to have it set in a platinum ring. How much budget should I give for buying the ring and setting the stone?

Thanks for all the help!

 

[sledge]

Yes, your budget is sufficient, depending on the type of setting. Here are some super ideals I pulled in seconds at WF. All cream of the crop meeting your criteria.

That would leave you around $1,000 for the setting which is doable. Depending what exact type of setting you plan to get her. A plain but simple solitaire can be had for $350 or so. If you buy the stone and setting from the same place there is no setting fee usually. There can be some limitations and small costs associated in buying the stone for Vendor A and the setting from Vendor B. In those cases, it's about $100-200 to set an outside stone unless the vendor builds it into their price for the setting itself. All are manageable situations but until we know specifics it's hard to guess more.

Most here would prefer the AGS report over the GIA because of its precision. GIA does some funky rounding and reporting of their angles and percentages so IMO you have to be more particular when shopping their stones. But this is mainly related to cut as those values determine cut quality. Other items like color, clarity, etc seem to be the same. Both are trusted overall and there are gorgeous GIA stones. It's just easier to pick a good performing AGS stone than a GIA stone, mainly because of the cut grade.

In lower colors, some people believe AGS can be a little softer in grading than GIA. This is very subjective at best based on the sensitivity of the buyer, not mention as you go lower to an I or J you may have a low, medium or high variant of that color. For higher colors D-H there is much less disparity, if any.

And no, I would not assume each shop has those scopes. For $35 or so you can get a handheld ASET. Another $50 get a you an idealscope. The ASET shows more detail do if you choose just one, get an ASET. A hearts and arrow (H&A) viewer would be nice too so you can check symmetry but typically if it passes an ASET you will be fine.

 

[OoohShiny]

Yes, your budget is sufficient, depending on the type of setting. Here are some super ideals I pulled in seconds at WF. All cream of the crop meeting your criteria.

Are they invisible? I can't see them LOL


OP, I will be very surprised if any stores have ASETscope or IdealScope tools available - they seem to only be a US-based 'thing', and then only in stores aware of Pricescope!

You can buy your own for a very reasonable cost, which may help you assess stones in person (Although be prepared for strange looks from vendors, and/or looks of "oh, here comes someone else who thinks they know it all because they've read something on the internet " lol

 

[crbl999]

1.071 G VS2
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3999639.htm

1.052 F SI1
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3965455.htm

1.04 F SI1
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3978022.htm

 

[sledge]

Sorry. Traveling

 

[crbl999]

Here's another great choice.

1.108 F SI1
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3986332.htm

Plenty of super ideal choices with budget left over for a nice setting.

 

[EvaEvans]

If I were you, I would go and explore all options there in Israel. Not everybody has the possibility to go and stay at this country!
GIA is as good as AGS, but do not rely on GIA "excellent cut".
Also, trust your eyes. Numbers are numbers, but the best judge is your perception!

 

[Rockdiamond]

I'm with those who discourage a purchase there- Remember, the Israeli domestic diamond market is tiny- so even compared to a place like 47th St NYC, you'll see far less in terms of selection. But by all means, go and look ( just leave the wallet home

And pleeeeease!!
Have a Felafel on my behalf

 

[holeniche]

So I paid my first visit to a store here today. Through the help of a friend who knows someone working at a store as a salesperson, I visited her store in the diamond exchange district. It's located on the first(ground) floor of one of the buildings but not on the trading floor, and is more like a jewelry store. The owner is a director of the diamond exchange here.

They do have diamonds certified by GIA, but when I asked about AGS, the salesperson didn't know what it is and asked her manager and he said they don't have any.

The salesperson couldn't find anything I was looking for and so she again called her manager, who has a few more stones in his office, but still none of them met the requirement. Nevertheless, she did offer to show me following two diamonds.

1.07 F IF
https://www.gia.edu/report-check?reportno=2195031152

1.17 D IF
https://www.gia.edu/report-check?reportno=5286794638

Clearly, both of them are beyond my criteria, but I wanted to see the numbers in the paper and the prices to get a sense of the pricing of the shop so I asked her to show me the stones.

The first one costs 16380 USD and the second costs 28080 USD. This includes a platinum ring in any style (as long as I can provide a picture) and setting the stone. (They didn't offer platinum ring for free and I was told later that it's not popular in Israel?) I will be able to get the 17% tax refund (minus 1.5% service change) since I'm on a tourist visa. They also offer full-refund and free upgrade.

Anyway, after looking at the certs, I pointed out that both stones have a table diameter of 59% and I'd like something between between 54%-57% as suggested by @foxinsox and some websites. I even showed her the numbers on the cheat sheet. She said 54% is too small, and she'd had the same request from customers before and had asked her manager the same question, but her manager told her that diamonds with a larger diameter would "look bigger", she even showed me two diamonds with 2 different table diameters, but I couldn't really tell the difference besides noticing one has a larger table. The first one has a HCA score of 2.7 and the second has a score of 1.9.

So, without the right numbers, I asked for an ASET scope. Unsurprisingly, she didn't know what that is and passed on the request to her manager. The manager said he could try to get me the ASET images and they did give me an H&A scope to check the symmetries, and both diamonds look good in the scope.

After waiting for a while finally the manager came down to see me by himself. He said he couldn't find anyone with the equipment to take the ASET images and again told me AGS is not popular here and was only popular in the 80s and now GIA is the top standard everywhere in the world. He did point out that other certificates like EGL are not accurate at all. We did pull out the AGSL proportion chart (https://agslab.com/docs/pbcg/AGSLProportionCharts.pdf) and the two stones are indeed in the ideal region, but I think that's only a necessary condition for the stone to get an ideal grade, but not a sufficient one.

The manager did offer to look for diamonds with any proportion I want either from his factories located in Jerusalem and Tiberias, or from the trading floor (which then it will cost more but take less time), and I'm welcomed to take my time to do more research on the proportions before getting back to him.

In general the experience was okay-ish. The salespeople were not very knowledgeable (I asked and they said the manager explains things to them only when they ask) and so pretty much every time I had a question she had to pass it to the manager via the phone and get back to me, which is a bit annoying and I wish the manager could have come down earlier. But I didn't feel pushed to buy anything during my visit even when I was the only customer in the shop.

Regarding the prices, they seem wayyyyy above the prices of the same grade given by online vendors, especially for the first diamond, the price is almost doubled! It's so much more expensive that I had to confirm with salesperson that the prices are given in USD and not ILS...

After doing some online search, I noticed that this particular store seems to be Chinese customers. They have a website and ads in Chinese and everything in the shop has a Chinese translation. On the other hand, I couldn't find any information about the shop in English, although they said the shop is popular in Israel and it has a longer history. So I'm not entirely surprised that things are overpriced. I'm also not sure if it's worth asking the manager to look for the diamonds that meet my criteria if it's gonna cost way above my expectation.

Yeah, so now I don't have high hope that I'll be able to buy a ring here at a good price. It was a fun experience and I might check out a few other vendors when I have time and report back. Next time I will definitely bring an ASET scope with me (placed an order yesterday and it's on its way), otherwise I don't think I'd be able to distinguish the differences between two 3X diamonds.

 

[kindred]

Thanks for sharing your experience. It's very interesting. Because the prices are so high , I would not ask them to call anything in for you. I think you would just be wasting everyone's time. I wouldn't hesitate to browse available selections at other shops as a learning experience, though.

 

[The Stig]

Seeing you are in the region, what about a trip to Dubai. Is it true that good deals are to be had there or that just hot air?

 

[EvaEvans]

Yeah, so now I don't have high hope that I'll be able to buy a ring here at a good price.

You discourage yourself too fast!
Chinese market demand D, IF because of their cultural believes.
Also, always negotiate the price!
Just look around, you have plenty on time!

 

[WinkHPD]

Seeing you are in the region, what about a trip to Dubai. Is it true that good deals are to be had there or that just hot air?

Please see and apply all comments and warnings above. No marketplace is foolproof, in fact most of them have an abundance of people looking for deals and dealers to make sure they get deals. Sadly, many of the deals are not so great for the buyers...

The only way to know what is a good deal is to know the product your are buying and to know what it costs in other locations and being able to actually analyze the deal you are looking at is critical to making a good deal.

Woml

 

[The Stig]

Please see and apply all comments and warnings above. No marketplace is foolproof, in fact most of them have an abundance of people looking for deals and dealers to make sure they get deals. Sadly, many of the deals are not so great for the buyers...

The only way to know what is a good deal is to know the product your are buying and to know what it costs in other locations and being able to actually analyze the deal you are looking at is critical to making a good deal.

Woml

Okay let me phrase it differently then. In Dubai is the fair market value of these diamonds generally less than in other markets? Make sense?

I’m actually very curious as to how the different markets fair against each other, I.e Belgium vs US vs Israel vs Dubai vs South Africa. Sort of like a VW GTI vehicle will sell up to 20k cheaper in the US than in other global markets. I was actually going to purchase my lady’s center stone through a contact I have in SOuth Africa until I stumbled upon IDJ in NY and purchased it through them instead. Talking to my SA contact, he didn’t think I would get anything comparible cheaper there anyway. That’s why I’m curious if other have more insight into this?

 

[Rockdiamond]

From my perspective, it's really dependant on the local market.
Dubai has a lot of jewelry buyers, as does Singapore- so it makes sense that such markets have greater diversity in vendors and a larger selection of goods.
Of course, more competition will also tend to have a downward pressure on prices.
Not that I've shopped in Dubai, or Singapore- but we have shipped many diamonds and rings to both places....

PS- excuse the threadjack, but I'm a GTI lover!!!

 

[sledge]

If it makes you feel any better, my experience at local diamond stores is similar to yours. The sales associates just aren't armed with enough knowledge to have a conversation about true details. Nearly every time I go in a store I (finally) get passed to their gemologist and/or a manager. This is largely why I prefer to shop online at super ideal vendors, etc. It's less of a waste of my time to be honest.

They are correct that a stone with a larger table will face up larger. If you look closer, you will notice the tables and depths are both nearly identical at 59%. If you haven't done so yet, do some research on 60/60 diamonds. The (old) theory was that if you had a stone cut with a 60% table and a 60% depth, then you would have "perfect" cut. Obviously, that isn't true.

Most people DO NOT prefer the 60/60 style of diamonds as they tend to throw more white light as opposed to rainbow color light. In short, 60/60 stones tend to be more white, whereas a higher crown and smaller table will result in more fire. However, if you fall in the crowd that does prefer those type of stones, we need to adjust your search parameters for an ideal cut 60/60 stone.

In both cases, the LGF's were at 80 and 85, respectively. Many prefer 75 LGF's for the appearance of "fat arrows". The higher the number, the more skinny the arrow and the more small dispersion of light you will get instead of big flashes. Generally speaking 75 LGF's perform better in dark environments and 80 LGF's perform better in brighter environments. LGF's in the range of 75-80 are pretty widely accepted as acceptable, but the 85 LGF would be a reason to reject for me. FYI, with the way GIA rounds LGF values, a reported value of 85 could land anywhere from 83-87.

https://www.whiteflash.com/about-diamonds/diamond-education/facets-the-lower-halves.htm

See the difference above? Symmetry is being compromised in the larger LGF stones and can adversely affect light performance.

Last, but not least -- the sales manager tried to degrade AGS to something comparable to EGL. While he may not deal or be familiar with AGS, his assessment was incorrect rather that was due to his lack of knowledge or him trying to downplay the validity of AGS since his sales stock was limited to GIA stones. Other labs such as EGL and IGI are not well respected and inferior compared to GIA; however, AGS > GIA in my opinion due to the 3D modeling and objective cut grade assessment we previously discussed.

FYI, while there I would have them bring out stones in color from D-H and have them place in random order and NOT tell you which is which. Then try to decide if you can see any difference and what is "yellow" and what is not. This will help you gauge your color sensitivity. G seems to be a sweet spot offering colorless, while maximizing dollars. Some might be able to tolerate H producing more dollar savings. Most expensive premiums will be D & E colors.

I suggest this because looking at D IF and F IF stones seems like massive overkill. You could get much more stone if you dropped to a G VS2. Many SI1's would also be eye clean and pass, but the majority of VS2's is a near guarantee.

In short, you don't want to pay for color or clarity that you can't see.

 

[The Stig]

PS- excuse the threadjack, but I'm a GTI lover!!!

I own a 2017 MK7 GTI SE with PP in MT. Absolutely love it and is the best car I’ve every driven. Once I’ve recovered from this eRing purchase I plan to treat myself to a stage 1 tune fresh with a new downpipe - yes the GTI is Stig’s choice for a daily driver

Apologies for fueling the hijack, back to the topic of this thread

 

[Rockdiamond]

For sure there's a bias against 60/60 in many discussions- especially years ago- here on PS.
But I have to tell you- based on many years experience with both Supers, and 60's: If you show great examples of each to observers with no preference, the split in preference between a super ideal H&A and a well cut 60/60 is going to be pretty close to 50/50.
It's correct that solely having a 60% table and depth does not guarantee a well cut diamond.
But the reason Winston and other super high end jewelers cut to 60/60 for many years was because when everything else is done correctly, a 60/60 is drop dead gorgeous- and also has greater spread than many H&A style stones. Yes, in a super well cut 60/60 you trade off a few percentage points in the ability to throw fire versus Super Ideal- but you add them into the scintillation category in favor of 60/60- so it's not a net loss of light performance.
It's also not true in all cases that a larger table =larger face up- too many other factors play into spread versus weight.
I also agree that many sellers are woefully uninformed- yet feel free to spread sketchy info.
ASET is a tool that very few sellers, percentage wise, are familiar with. We agree, there's no way to prove an RBC stone is cut to that level of perfection without an ASET
A lot of local sellers that are well regarded have no idea about what goes into Super Ideal Diamonds. For sure, dealers who specialize in Super Ideal stones tend to be extremely well versed in the way a diamond is cut and evaluated.
Such dealers are rare- as well as cutters capable of producing Super Ideals.
Also rare are the type of 60/60's I'm referring to- and also cutters who will cut them.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I own a 2017 MK7 GTI SE with PP in MT. Absolutely love it and is the best car I’ve every driven. Once I’ve recovered from this eRing purchase I plan to treat myself to a stage 1 tune fresh with a new downpipe - yes the GTI is Stig’s choice for a daily driver

Apologies for fueling the hijack, back to the topic of this thread

SUWEET- we're car cousins.
We have a 2017 GTI Autobahn Edition.
I could not love a car more.
I've also thought about a power upgrade- but it's a lease...
Back to diamond stuff....

 

[Dancing Fire]

Hello,

Does anyone have experiences buying diamonds from there? Is there anything I should be aware of? It will be my first diamond purchase and so I'll only look for stones with GIA certs.

Thanks!

Why Israel? . Diamonds are almost free here in the U.S.