Buying antique ring online - what questions should we ask?

[shadiou]

Hi everyone

Long time Pricescope lurker here! We are looking at purchasing my engagement ring online from the US, but being in Australia are really, really nervous about not being able to see or try on the ring first. Yes, we can return it but there will be export duties, insurance and postage to consider.

Can anyone suggest the types of questions we should be asking about the ring? We are a pair of jewellery newbies! I'd post a link but I don't want anyone else to snap it up, as I am in LOVE. That said, i'm trying to be cautious and find out EVERYTHING I need to do and not be swayed by a purely emotional decision

Does this sound like a good deal for under $9000?

It is solid platinum, 1930s era, with a old european cut round - 7.01 x 7.10mm J SI1, 1.53carats. Surrounded by *many* accent diamonds, all single cut rounds or old euro cut rounds. All F-G, SI1 or SI2, with a total diamond weight of 2.16 carats.

there is a 'certified independent appraisal' included, whatever that means!

 

[diamond-enthusiast]

Re: Buying antique ring online - what questions should we as

Doesn't sound like the diamond comes with a GIA report. It's risky not knowing the true quality of the stone you are paying for.

 

[Rhea]

Re: Buying antique ring online - what questions should we as

GIA only certify loose stones. I wouldn't risk pulling apart an antique piece of jewellery to get a GIA document.

This is from Era Gem, isn't it? I love their website! I'd ask to see the appraisal. Who is it appraised by? The photos on their website are typically really good but they are in a collage. I'd ask for bigger individual photos so that you can see the ring in it's more magnified view.

I don't think it's a bad price at all. Hopefully others will be along shortly with more questions for you to consider. Can you place the ring on hold in the meantime?

 

[SB621]

Re: Buying antique ring online - what questions should we as

From someone who has also lived overseas and purchased antique items I HIGHLY RECOMMEND sending the ring directly to David Atlas to have him appraise it. He is highly respected on PS and sort of specialises in antique jewelry. If he OK's the item then have it sent directly to you- I think 9k is a great price!!!!. If there is an issue you can return it to the vendor and David will let you know what those issues are.

Goodluck and for what it is worth I personally love that ring!

 

[SB621]

Re: Buying antique ring online - what questions should we as

GIA only certify loose stones. I wouldn't risk pulling apart an antique piece of jewellery to get a GIA document.
This is from Era Gem, isn't it? I love their website! I'd ask to see the appraisal. Who is it appraised by? The photos on their website are typically really good but they are in a collage. I'd ask for bigger individual photos so that you can see the ring in it's more magnified view.

I don't think it's a bad price at all. Hopefully others will be along shortly with more questions for you to consider. Can you place the ring on hold in the meantime?

Couldn't agree with this more. Don't bother with a report since this is set into antique setting. You can ruin it taking the dimaond in and out. Just go with a good 3rd party independant appraiser. I would not do the store appraisal as they have a vested interest in this ring selling.

 

[shadiou]

Re: Buying antique ring online - what questions should we as

GIA only certify loose stones. I wouldn't risk pulling apart an antique piece of jewellery to get a GIA document.

This is from Era Gem, isn't it? I love their website! I'd ask to see the appraisal. Who is it appraised by? The photos on their website are typically really good but they are in a collage. I'd ask for bigger individual photos so that you can see the ring in it's more magnified view.

I don't think it's a bad price at all. Hopefully others will be along shortly with more questions for you to consider. Can you place the ring on hold in the meantime?

Hahah, I thought I was being really discreet.

So here are a list of questions that I have, to begin with. Any other ideas appreciated!

• -Is the central diamond original to the antique ring setting or has it been added later?
  -Can we see the independent appraisal before purchasing?
  -Could we see a photo outside in the sunlight
  -The centre stone is listed as SI1, is it 'eye clean'?
  -What are the Total Depth %, Table % and Crown deg and Pavilion deg angles
  -Is the ring sturdy enough to be worn daily as an engagement ring?
  -What is the origin of the ring? If it was made in the US then we will not need to pay a duty fee to import it into Australia, we will be able to claim preferential tarrif rates under the AUST-US FTA

 

[Rhea]

Re: Buying antique ring online - what questions should we as

I doubt they'll be able to tell you with absolute authority if the stone is original to the ring. If a setter and the bench have done their job really well, no one would ever be the wiser. The angles may also be very hard to get on a set diamond. I have no experience in this, but am just guessing based on observations from other threads.

 

[SB621]

Re: Buying antique ring online - what questions should we as

-What are the Total Depth %, Table % and Crown deg and Pavilion deg angles


I **think that information could only be obtained if the diamond were loose. I don't think you can get that info with it mounted.

 

[GemFever]

Re: Buying antique ring online - what questions should we as

I agree with Rhea and SB -- the specific angle measurements are taken on loose stones. A good appraiser can figure out the table percentage and estimate the depth, but I think that's about it.

I would ask for numerous additional photos, but not necessarily outside. Maybe in a diffused light environment (like by a window that has natural light, but not direct sunlight). You want to see all the faceting details, and too much sunlight can wash the details out. I would as for a profile shot, a head-on shot, a macro shot of the faceting. Maybe also a hand shot.

Having the ring sent to an independent appraiser sounds like a great idea.

 

[IE_Princess]

Re: Buying antique ring online - what questions should we as

I would second sending any ring you purchase to Dave Atlas first. As a plus, if you see something you like at Jewels by Erica Grace, a lot of their pieces have had a qualitative report done by Dave already (which is then easily converted to an appraisal for you, for a small fee).

 

[kenny]

Re: Buying antique ring online - what questions should we as

there is a 'certified independent appraisal' included, whatever that means!

It means absolutely nothing.
I'd never buy ANY diamond over $500 without a report from GIA or AGS.
Insist the seller get this or move on.
Why send it to an appraiser when you can get the real deal, a GIA report?

Diamonds are expensive.
Color and clarity grades can make one diamond cost 10 times, or more, the price of another diamond that looks the same to 99% of the public.
That's why a competent independent grading report is essential to assure you don't overpay.

"Appraisals" obtained by the seller have an inherent conflict of interest and are not worth the paper they are printed on.
Even an 'appraisal' YOU pay for from the most competent, professional, honest, truly-independent appraiser who does not sell anything does not carry anything near the weight of a report from GIA or AGS when selling a diamond.
I'm not a risk taker or a gambler with my hard-earned money, nor do I expect to get something for much less than it's worth.

When you gamble on diamonds without legit reports the odds are with the house.
Sure a few get lucky, and a few others who are trained and davy can spot that rare bargain, but the majority of transactions of reportless-diamonds favor the seller.

My 2 cents.

 

[GemFever]

Re: Buying antique ring online - what questions should we as

While I agree with Kenny about the importance of knowing exactly what you're buying, I still would think twice before taking apart a vintage piece in order to send the main diamond to the lab. It's a risk. I recently took that risk, and when the diamond was being re-set into its original setting, the setting was significantly altered (the jeweler changed the prongs without asking me because he thought the original prongs were too worn down to reset the diamond securely). There's a risk to taking apart vintage pieces (especially if you can't be there in person to try to make sure everything goes well).

Of course, plenty of diamonds have been unset and reset from their settings without any problems. I guess you just have to decide what you're comfortable with. If you want absolute certainty about the diamond's specs, buy a loose stone with a GIA report. If you want a true vintage piece... you have to give up some of that certainty. But asking the right questions, seeing lots of photos, and getting an independent appraisal are all good steps to make sure you're getting what you're paying for.

 

[bunnycat]

Re: Buying antique ring online - what questions should we as

I would generally agree with what's been said already re antique stones. I'd be very wary of removing a stone from an antique setting just to get it certified and it would be so easy for someone to totally botch those fishtails if they were messed with. I'd have no issue at all with getting a stone that's already loose certified and then set in an antique setting.

One question I have is about the stone's age versus the setting. I'm not sure there's a way to know if a antique stone in an antique setting is original or not. Maybe someone else might have ways of knowing they can say. Would it matter to you if it were original to the setting, or does it matter more that you have an antique stone paired with an antique setting?

 

[IE_Princess]

Re: Buying antique ring online - what questions should we as

I'm somewhere in the middle on this. While I agree on not unsetting antique stones, I do think you need more information than you currently have, and I'm not sure how much information you're going to get from a big outfit like Eragem. You don't have depth or table percentages and you have no idea how the J color was arrived at. Based on a stone I looked at recently I'm wondering about the face up of the stone as the dimensions may be a little small for a 1.53 CT stone. I'm going to be looking at a 1.41 OEC today that has almost identical face up dimensions as this stone.

As for being in love, I fell in love with a ring earlier this year, and I ended up not buying because the kind and brave members here at PS were able to point out its flaws to me, flaws that might have gone unknown if it wasn't for GIA numbers on the diamond, so I do think GIA is helpful for some things. I might have spent a lot of money on a poor performing stone. That can be a problem when buying from a large estate/antique retailer because the prices are really high and they kind of count on you falling in love with their amazing photos without having much knowledge about what you are purchasing.

EGL will evaluate set stones which is why they are popular for antique diamond rings.

 

[SB621]

Re: Buying antique ring online - what questions should we as

I'm somewhere in the middle on this. While I agree on not unsetting antique stones, I do think you need more information than you currently have, and I'm not sure how much information you're going to get from a big outfit like Eragem. You don't have depth or table percentages and you have no idea how the J color was arrived at. Based on a stone I looked at recently I'm wondering about the face up of the stone as the dimensions may be a little small for a 1.53 CT stone. I'm going to be looking at a 1.41 OEC today that has almost identical face up dimensions as this stone.

As for being in love, I fell in love with a ring earlier this year, and I ended up not buying because the kind and brave members here at PS were able to point out its flaws to me, flaws that might have gone unknown if it wasn't for GIA numbers on the diamond, so I do think GIA is helpful for some things. I might have spent a lot of money on a poor performing stone. That can be a problem when buying from a large estate/antique retailer because the prices are really high and they kind of count on you falling in love with their amazing photos without having much knowledge about what you are purchasing.

EGL will evaluate set stones which is why they are popular for antique diamond rings.

Not quite true. EGL is popular for antique diamonds because GIA doesn't take into consideration old cuts. They compare everything against a RB which is apples to oranges. Here is a very interesting post on why EGL is sort of the industry standard on true antique/ old cuts: [URL='/user']/user[/URL]

And dang after reading through this thread again I do remember that GIA will certify loose stones. I'm still not sure if I would bother though since it is a old cut. But up to you OP.

And I'm sorry but I couldn't disagree more with kenny on his post. Once again we are talking about an antique vintate ring. Not some modern cut solitare. OP I might be wrong but if you are going to antique rings it is probably more for the setting style in addition to the diamond. Taking apart anything antique is a crying shame and that is why we recommend a good appraiser in this case over a lap report.

 

[kenny]

Re: Buying antique ring online - what questions should we as

I'd go with GIA for color and clarity grading because those two have such a dramatic effect on price.
Not overpaying for 'soft' grades is much more important to me than a vintage antique setting possibly not withstanding the removal and resetting of the stone.
YMMV.

I'd ignore everything on the GIA report (and an EGL report) regarding cut for the old cuts.
I won't support EGL.
I don't care what is 'standard' for old cuts.
I'm not a lemur.
IMO EGL's grading borders on fraud.

I'm fine with people disagreeing with me.
IMO we all just post our perspectives and they do not compete; no opinion and no poster wins threads.
The readers make just up their own minds based on the range of information posted.

 

[bunnycat]

Re: Buying antique ring online - what questions should we as

I'm somewhere in the middle on this. While I agree on not unsetting antique stones, I do think you need more information than you currently have, and I'm not sure how much information you're going to get from a big outfit like Eragem. You don't have depth or table percentages and you have no idea how the J color was arrived at. Based on a stone I looked at recently I'm wondering about the face up of the stone as the dimensions may be a little small for a 1.53 CT stone. I'm going to be looking at a 1.41 OEC today that has almost identical face up dimensions as this stone.

As for being in love, I fell in love with a ring earlier this year, and I ended up not buying because the kind and brave members here at PS were able to point out its flaws to me, flaws that might have gone unknown if it wasn't for GIA numbers on the diamond, so I do think GIA is helpful for some things. I might have spent a lot of money on a poor performing stone. That can be a problem when buying from a large estate/antique retailer because the prices are really high and they kind of count on you falling in love with their amazing photos without having much knowledge about what you are purchasing.

EGL will evaluate set stones which is why they are popular for antique diamond rings.

I think you can tell a little from the info given, but certainly not tons (as you say). The most I do with comparing old cuts to modern stones is to figure out how the measurements relate to an ideal modern, and then everything else stops there because so much of old cuts has to do with seeing them.

For instance, if they are correct that the measurements of the center stone are 7x7.1 and I know that a well cut modern equivalent would be about 1.3-ish carats give or take, then I know this stone is a bit deep by comparison so faces up smaller, which is the case for a lot of older stones and I wouldn't really expect it to have the same spread as a modern stone.

You could look at comps in the J-L range and see what the pricing runs to get an idea how much a center of that size and weight and clarity would be to help ask better questions about it.

 

[yennyfire]

Re: Buying antique ring online - what questions should we as

Adding on to what gemfever said about the stone being deep based on measurements, that was my first thought when I saw your post. I have a 1.60 oec that measures 7.5mm (I can't remember the depth off the top of my head). If you look at OWD (Old World Diamonds), most of the stones in the 1.5-1.6 carat range measure 7.2-7.6, so this stone is definitely on the deep side. That being said, if you love the setting, it would be worth it to sacrifice a tiny bit of face up size to have a completed ring that you love.

 

[IE_Princess]

Re: Buying antique ring online - what questions should we as

Not quite true. EGL is popular for antique diamonds because GIA doesn't take into consideration old cuts. They compare everything against a RB which is apples to oranges. Here is a very interesting post on why EGL is sort of the industry standard on true antique/ old cuts: [URL='/user']/user[/URL]

And dang after reading through this thread again I do remember that GIA will certify loose stones. I'm still not sure if I would bother though since it is a old cut. But up to you OP.

And I'm sorry but I couldn't disagree more with kenny on his post. Once again we are talking about an antique vintate ring. Not some modern cut solitare. OP I might be wrong but if you are going to antique rings it is probably more for the setting style in addition to the diamond. Taking apart anything antique is a crying shame and that is why we recommend a good appraiser in this case over a lap report.

Sorry, I should have said that it may be "one" reason it is popular; a reason that I have read several places. There are of course other reasons, like the usually more favorable color grading which is why I take the EGL color grade with a grain of salt, and I've read that it's cheaper to do (but haven't researched it myself). I have looked at thousands of old cut rings for sale online over the past six months and I guess I can say that I consider an EGL report better than an evaluation by the seller (usually worthless from a private seller) or in-house appraiser, but not as good as a GIA report. That said, I fully understand why sellers don't want to take apart antique rings and unless it is very straightforward I wouldn't do it.

Back to the OP, if I was considering this ring (and oh have I considered rings over the past six months), I would want to know the estimated depth percentage and table percentage. I would ask how they determined that it is a J/SI1; did one person look at it or did several people look at it? Do they use comparison stones? If possible, I'd want to know from whom the independent appraisal will come (because if they did it in store then it isn't independent, which has probably been pointed out already. I'd ask for the individual shots rather than the composite, so you can blow up that face shot. I'd ask if the stone obstructs, and how much.

Normally I would then decide if I want to have a look, but that doesn't work for your location.

This may be crazy, but my DH and I belong to a specialty trailer forum, and sometimes a forum member will check out a trailer for sale for another member who lives far away. I don't know if Eragem has a brick and mortar location, but if they do, and a PSer lives nearby, maybe they could check the ring out for you?

 

[shadiou]

Re: Buying antique ring online - what questions should we as

I'm somewhere in the middle on this. While I agree on not unsetting antique stones, I do think you need more information than you currently have, and I'm not sure how much information you're going to get from a big outfit like Eragem. You don't have depth or table percentages and you have no idea how the J color was arrived at. Based on a stone I looked at recently I'm wondering about the face up of the stone as the dimensions may be a little small for a 1.53 CT stone. I'm going to be looking at a 1.41 OEC today that has almost identical face up dimensions as this stone.

As for being in love, I fell in love with a ring earlier this year, and I ended up not buying because the kind and brave members here at PS were able to point out its flaws to me, flaws that might have gone unknown if it wasn't for GIA numbers on the diamond, so I do think GIA is helpful for some things. I might have spent a lot of money on a poor performing stone. That can be a problem when buying from a large estate/antique retailer because the prices are really high and they kind of count on you falling in love with their amazing photos without having much knowledge about what you are purchasing.

EGL will evaluate set stones which is why they are popular for antique diamond rings.

Wow, thank you so much everyone for all your replies and information!
I am overwhelmed by how helpful this forum is
I agree that removing the centre stone from the ring is just not an option for me. I have always wanted an antique ring more than I've wanted a diamond itself, if that makes sense, so I definitely prioritise the 'antiquity' of the ring and it's original settings more than making 100% sure that the diamond does follow the specs given.

Im going to ask for an EGL certification of the centre diamond. If one doesn't exist, that will definitely be a cause for some concern...

And a BIG thank you to whomever suggested "Jewels by Erica Grace", there's one on there at the moment that is just divine and they come with EGL certifications. I've searched the forum and found good reports on them.

In Australia, a similar ring costs around $20-30 0000 which is why we're going this route, that said, it is just terrifying to contemplate buying something that you've never seen!

 

[Hera]

Re: Buying antique ring online - what questions should we as

9k seems like fair pricing on an F/G stone but it's more likely the stone is H-J because sellers (especially high volume) overestimate the grading. I would look at the comparables in the 1.1-1.2 carat range H-J for the pricing. I also take an SI stone to mean you *might* be able to see the inclusions. I would ask if it's eye clean and if there are an chips on the stone.

I wouldn't necessarily be swayed against not having an EGL report. You can get one. I find that EGL is off of GIA by around two color grades and more accurate on the clarity. You can also go to an Independent appraiser (not associated with a jewelry store) to have the stone looked at.

I also recommend JBEG. I think their prices are pretty fair and they'll give you more pics if you need them.

 

[shadiou]

Re: Buying antique ring online - what questions should we as

Sorry for asking what might seem an obvious question, but GIA only grade loose diamonds don't they, not those set in a ring? But they are more accurate or 'less soft' than EGL?

I only ask because the JBEG ring I"m looking at it comes with a US EGL certificate and I don't want to look like a fool by asking for a GIA one! I have asked if it come with a qualitative report by Dave Atlas.

The fact that JBEG post videos makes me them, it really does give you a better idea of colour!

 

[Hera]

Re: Buying antique ring online - what questions should we as

Sorry for asking what might seem an obvious question, but GIA only grade loose diamonds don't they, not those set in a ring? But they are more accurate or 'less soft' than EGL?

I only ask because the JBEG ring I"m looking at it comes with a US EGL certificate and I don't want to look like a fool by asking for a GIA one! I have asked if it come with a qualitative report by Dave Atlas.

The fact that JBEG post videos makes me them, it really does give you a better idea of colour!

GIA only grades loose diamonds (exception being fancy colored diamonds). They are more strict than EGL on color but I have noticed that they aren't as different on clarity. I usually notice a 2 color difference on color as I said above. So if EGL says "L" color, I will think it's GIA "N." That's not 100% accurate, just something I've noticed. I look at it more like a range. Dave Atlas is an Independent grader so I would take his opinion on grading as well. Personally, I don't think there's need for extra grading in the way of sending it to GIA but you'll have to decide for yourself. You can always send it out to GIA but you will need to pay to have the diamond removed ($40ish-depends), mailed with insurance, pay for the cert, and then have it re-mounted. I think JBEG is a reliable source so I wouldn't go through all of that. The thing about old diamonds, is that part of the value lies within the specs (color, clarity) and some of the value lies in how nicely cut the diamond is. I don't think in that case, imo, that GIA has more to offer than EGL.

 

[SB621]

Re: Buying antique ring online - what questions should we as

I'm somewhere in the middle on this. While I agree on not unsetting antique stones, I do think you need more information than you currently have, and I'm not sure how much information you're going to get from a big outfit like Eragem. You don't have depth or table percentages and you have no idea how the J color was arrived at. Based on a stone I looked at recently I'm wondering about the face up of the stone as the dimensions may be a little small for a 1.53 CT stone. I'm going to be looking at a 1.41 OEC today that has almost identical face up dimensions as this stone.

As for being in love, I fell in love with a ring earlier this year, and I ended up not buying because the kind and brave members here at PS were able to point out its flaws to me, flaws that might have gone unknown if it wasn't for GIA numbers on the diamond, so I do think GIA is helpful for some things. I might have spent a lot of money on a poor performing stone. That can be a problem when buying from a large estate/antique retailer because the prices are really high and they kind of count on you falling in love with their amazing photos without having much knowledge about what you are purchasing.

EGL will evaluate set stones which is why they are popular for antique diamond rings.

Not quite true. EGL is popular for antique diamonds because GIA doesn't take into consideration old cuts. They compare everything against a RB which is apples to oranges. Here is a very interesting post on why EGL is sort of the industry standard on true antique/ old cuts: [URL='/user']/user[/URL]

And dang after reading through this thread again I do remember that GIA will certify loose stones. I'm still not sure if I would bother though since it is a old cut. But up to you OP.

And I'm sorry but I couldn't disagree more with kenny on his post. Once again we are talking about an antique vintate ring. Not some modern cut solitare. OP I might be wrong but if you are going to antique rings it is probably more for the setting style in addition to the diamond. Taking apart anything antique is a crying shame and that is why we recommend a good appraiser in this case over a lap report.

I meant to say will certify SET diamonds. At least according to a few people on PS I have read that. I would honestly just call GIA and verify. However as the previous poster mentioend if you are buying from JbEG and it comes with EGL USA (whish is better then EGL international) and with an appraisal from David Atlas I would be fine with that information. I wouldn't bother wasting more money when you have 2 sources telling you the info. Plus Grace and Erica really know their antiques and wouldn't sell something that was misleading in any way.

I also agree when you are buying an antique diamond/ setting there is more involved then the report. I typically only care about the setting and facet pattern of the diamond. I know many of us on PS have bought our antique diamonds from OWD who doesn't even other EGL or an an appraisal at all in most cases!!!!

Anyhow not to beat a dead horse but you have received some great advise here. Now you just have to find an antique setting and diamond that you like. Goodluck in your search! I would hesitate to direct link to anything as lurkers can scoop it up, but you can also visit the antique jewelry forum and those ladies can help you as well. It is not as fast and furious as RT, but they are amazing at finding things!

 

[IE_Princess]

Re: Buying antique ring online - what questions should we as

I love Jewels by Erica Grace! Some people don't like the photos but they will do their best to take any photos that you want. They will also do comparisons for you.

Just yesterday I had the chance to see a GIA certificated N stone, and I would say that it definitely has more color than my Dave Atlas appraised "GIA standard" L, so that makes me trust his judgement (and JbEG) even more. When buying from JbEG I'm happy with just the report from Dave, honestly. I love that some of the newer pieces have GIA reports (to use as a weeding tool), but I don't have to have them.

JbEG also has a trade in policy; maybe this is a forever stone but if it isn't it's nice to know that you can trade in versus selling a stone yourself.

 

[shadiou]

Re: Buying antique ring online - what questions should we as

I am so grateful to have found out about JBEG on this forum - they are just so friendly and communicative and I feel so much more relaxed with the appraisals.

I *think* I've found the perfect one (it has GIA certification!) but I won't link it as the fiance has to organise an increase in his credit card limit to pay for it first haha. Let's hope the Aussie dollar doesn't drop again!

 

[arkieb1]

Re: Buying antique ring online - what questions should we as

Hi,

I am an Aussie too and I have purchased from the JBEG girls before, always good service and you know what you are getting. Ebay has some great deals but you have to have a good eye and really know what you are after in advance. If you don't have any luck try Adam at Old World Diamonds he is super helpful as well, or Good Old Gold they have some nice old cuts from time to time too. They have some antique jewellery pieces these days as well.

 

[SB621]

Re: Buying antique ring online - what questions should we as

Jbeg also does a 3 month layaway at 0% interest. So if you are not in a rush to get the diamond and don't want to increase your credit then this is a great option.

 

[hippi_pixi]

Re: Buying antique ring online - what questions should we as

shadilou i'm in australia and wanted an antique diamond that i knew i would have to buy from the us because australias limitied in selection of antique stone and they are overpriced.

we ended up considering the additional costs if we had the diamond posted to us, which could be doubled or tripled if we had to return and then buy another stone/ring. and decided to travel to the US to pick it out ourselves. we combined it with some sightseeing and called it a subsidised holiday (yay!)

jbeg are great, also google leigh jay nacht for antique engagement rings. good luck!

 

[Rhea]

Re: Buying antique ring online - what questions should we as

When you return that item that you imported, is there no way to claim back the tax that you paid? I know in the UK is a long form, and it's been a couple years since I did it, but I got back everything except the small handling fee of about £8 that I paid. All the VAT was refunded.