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Brilliance, Fire, Scintillation, what are correct definitions?

Paul-Antwerp

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The job of a cutter is different from that of a gemologist. Where a gemologist tries to describe certain appearances after the product is finished, a cutter has to basically foresee these appearances in design and in production.

The advantage of being a cutter is that we can build upon experience, our own and that of predecessors, while the gemologist might still be struggling in ways to accurately describe. In that sense, we can produce diamonds, that gemologists have a hard time describing since they are still struggling with the definitions of certain descriptions.

This introduction only served to explain that I am coming from a different background than most contributors here. However, I have tried to combine my hands-on-experience with an ever-growing knowledge of gemology. I see it as an advantage that I can consider certain basics of gemology and, as a relative newbie in this area, can pinpoint where a certain gemological definition or description is lacking in clarity.

Over the past years, I have concentrated on the gemological description of brilliance (contrast-brightness), fire and scintillation. Understanding these phenomena now a lot better, I am glad to see that the extra knowledge does not affect my designs or production. But I am shocked to see, on a gemological field, how these terms are often loosely and incorrectly used, hampering new developments in gemological knowledge.

Reading PS''s tutorial-page on the subject (link), I find it hard to understand, and in its attempt to be clear and short, often incorrect. Therefore, I would like to attempt to re-set these definitions. Here it goes:

"
Brilliance, fire and scintillation are traditionally mentioned as the three aspects of light, which jointly describe a beautiful diamond.

In order to better understand them, we need not only define them, but also pinpoint the difference between them. First, the definitions:

Brilliance, or contrast-brightness, is the white light returned and observed by an observer in relation to the contrast, caused by the observer obstructing the light and light-leakage.
Fire is the colored light returned and observed by an observer.
Scintillation is the combination of sparkles, white or colored, observed by an observer, when either the diamond, the light-source or the observer are moving.

Looking at scintillation specifically, there are two major differences with the other two. First, there is a need of movement, and second, scintillation comprises both white and colored light being observed. So, in a sense, brilliance and fire are subsets of scintillation.

The difference between observing brilliance (a white sparkle) or fire (a colored sparkle) is a difficult one. This depends upon various factors, notably the observer (his visual acuity, his age, his pupil diameter), the lighting (the environment and the type of lighting) and logically the diamond itself. With one and the same diamond, it still depends upon the observer and the lighting.

With scintillation, the need of movement to accurately observe scintillation comes closer to the real-life interaction between diamond and observer. The study of brilliance and fire, static as they are, would be more accurately named ''potential brilliance'' and ''potential fire''. How these translate into sparkles when moving, is actually the study of scintillation.

On the date of today, it is safe to say that most gemological studies are still limited to studying ''potential brilliance''. As such, many gemological ''truths'' are still based upon a partial study of diamonds.
"

Looking forward to comments.

Live long,
 

oldminer

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Scientifically, Brilliance is the amount of light coming out of the crown of the diamond measured in a known land consistent ight source environment. We do not all agree what that environment should be. This must include all light, colorless and colored since you cannot begin to discern body color light from dispersion in diamonds and fire is light source dependent more so that total light return. Total light return can be measured with great repeatability and fire will vary based on lighting, distance, and body color all within exactly the same cut parameters of a given sample diamond.

Fire is the colored light return, but it is a poor measure due to the issue of the light becoming tinted by thee body color of most diamonds. Where does the industry draw the line on when white light is no longer pure white? We can appreciate fire, but it is not a good measurement to base grading on.

I agree with your Scintillation definition. Measurement made statically and in several positions results in what we term "Sparkle" and this can be measured with repeatability, while measurements made in motion would be far less consistent.
 

Paul-Antwerp

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David, in your definition of brilliance, I see no relation to an observer, nor to the potential contrast that this observer might cause.

Light coming out of the crown of a diamond (I suppose that you mean the total top, including the table?) is meaningless if it does not go to the observer''s eyes.

Interesting is your point that it should be measured in a specific light-environment, while there is no agreement on what that environment should be. Does this not dilute enormously the potential value of the ''science''. Still, you say that it can be measured with great repeatability. Considering that brilliance is dependent upon the light-source, the choice of the lighting-environment to measure it, also influences the outcome. How can this then be measurable with great repeatability?

Interesting, and confusing to me, is your mention of the body color of most diamonds eliminating white light-return, or the observation of white light by the observer (2 different things!). In a sense, you are saying that their is no other light return but fire, even without dispersion.

In any case, I see you connecting the phenomena to the act of grading. Considering the difficulty of defining them, going to grading immediately seems a giant leap to me.

Live long,
 

Karl_K

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Paul,
Interesting topic:
Defining diamond performance is meaningless without defining the lighting environment.
We all know that diamonds return light differently in different lighting.

The top 5 factors in diamond performance are:
lighting
lighting
lighting
lighting
lighting
everything else.

That is why machines that say they measure and grade light return(b-scope) are useless.

ASET and IS share the same issue to some extent.
They model the potential of the stone in one type of lighting and viewing condition.

As to the light itself, if you want to get very technical white light does not exist.
All light is colored.
 

Karl_K

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I have another question for the discussion, which is more important Brilliance, fire or scintillation? and why?
 

Paul-Antwerp

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Karl, I do not want to go too technical, although it will probably be unavoidable.

I do not agree with your assessment about ASET and IS. They do not model the potential of the stone in one type of lighting. They actually model it independently of any light-environment. In that sense, they show the true potential brilliance or light-return (if that term is preferred).

Live long,
 

oldminer

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Both of you guys are in denial. There are lighting models which people who have created light return measuring device have decided upon but there is no universal agreement as to what is the one, single best lighting environment to use. Using one which exists, such as ImaGem's lighting model, does provide a consistent way to assess light return it the ImaGem lighting environment. The industry has not agreed on any standard model so we all wait for that day. Obviously light return from the crown of the diamond is measured by a camera or sensor located perpendicular to the diamond's table, but can collect light from a certain angular relationship to the entire crown. Some obstruction, mimicking the head of the wearer is incorporated in the ImaGem model, but again, this is ImaGem's approach and is not universal. Such a universal lighting model could be created, but who is in charge? We do have a problem in this regard in order to advance the scientific approach to solving the problem.
One need not "grade" diamonds with light return measurements. One can simply "report" the findings. Let consumers make their own choice. I don't care if they choose high, medium or low, so long as they get information which helps them and is consistent and repeatable.

The body color issue is a real issue. No one has proposed a valid measurement of fire to date. The problem with light becoming slightly tinted in most diamonds is one key problem. Where do you draw the line for whiteness? Do you really have more fire in every tinted diamond than in white diamonds? Obviously the answer is no. Is the measurement of fire and the adjustment to body color a combined function? Is it worth the huge cost of programming to get a measure which means so little? Fire is way too flexible a measure to get busy with. It will not determine the quality of a diamond's cut. Besides, all well cut diamonds have some fire. Few people would want more fire at the cost of less white light return or less overall brightness.

Karl has given the best clue yet. "All light is colored" "White light does not exist" This being the case, measuring fire is a wasted effort. Reporting it is present is sufficient.

Paul; My effort to keep the explanations short is part of the inadequate way we express ourselves here. There is so much to the process of measuring light return that I can't hope to give complete responses, but that does not mean there are large loopholes in the scientific effort to date with measuring light return. Maybe, someday, you will have an opportunity to be in my area and to come see the solid work that has been done in this regard. It might help to convince you that quality efforts have been successful in being able to competently quantify light return in the correct manner especially suited for diamonds. Your top cut diamonds would score extraordinarily well and if the technology was adopted, it would help convince more people of the correctness of your cut approach.
 

Karl_K

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Date: 4/29/2010 11:42:12 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
Karl, I do not want to go too technical, although it will probably be unavoidable.


I do not agree with your assessment about ASET and IS. They do not model the potential of the stone in one type of lighting. They actually model it independently of any light-environment. In that sense, they show the true potential brilliance or light-return (if that term is preferred).


Live long,

IS/ASET are nothing more than another lighting environment.

Garry even has defined them as uniform lighting comparison devices.
 

Karl_K

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Date: 4/29/2010 11:54:35 AM
Author: oldminer
Both of you guys are in denial. There are lighting models which people who have created light return measuring device have decided upon but there is no universal agreement as to what is the one, single best lighting environment to use. Using one which exists, such as ImaGem''s lighting model, does provide a consistent way to assess light return it the ImaGem lighting environment.
That is exactly what I said it measures light return in its own lighting environment change the lighting and light return changes.
One lighting can not model all lighting conditions and 2 diamonds that model the same under one lighting condition may not be the same under another.
 

ChunkyCushionLover

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Date: 4/29/2010 11:56:53 AM
Author: Karl_K

Date: 4/29/2010 11:42:12 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
Karl, I do not want to go too technical, although it will probably be unavoidable.


I do not agree with your assessment about ASET and IS. They do not model the potential of the stone in one type of lighting. They actually model it independently of any light-environment. In that sense, they show the true potential brilliance or light-return (if that term is preferred).


Live long,

IS/ASET are nothing more than another lighting environment.

Garry even has defined them as uniform lighting comparison devices.
Exactly and that is what we need for the other diamond metrics as well!
36.gif


Choose one controlled lighting environment (it should be one that highlights the differences the most, so it won''t be the same for each property) and devise a method of comparing multiple diamonds in that controlled lighting environment.

This has been done by several tools already! However the critics who don''t use these tools always have something negative to say, or a comment about how it doesn''t apply to their diamonds or design, this has to STOP!

As long as the lighting and conditions for the SAME measurement are consistant then the comparisons can be made. Jon at GOG does this effectively in his videos. He avoids the problem of an absolute scale and just uses a comparison in ONE lighting environment and a video showing a series of diamonds side by side under the same conditions.

Of course the critics will say its not the right lighting environment or conditions but that is really a matter of debate. I''d rather have one lighting environment and a comparison rather than none.
 

Karl_K

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Date: 4/29/2010 11:54:35 AM
Author: oldminer
Karl has given the best clue yet. ''All light is colored'' ''White light does not exist'' This being the case, measuring fire is a wasted effort. Reporting it is present is sufficient.
That is something to think about but there is a catch, which lighting a diamond returns fire(deeply tinted light and not near white) in and what the fire looks like is an important difference between 2 diamonds.

"which lighting a diamond returns fire" is the key and a huge topic in itself, you take 2 diamonds and view them in 100000 different lighting conditions and record how tinted the light return is you will get vastly different results in which lighting the perception of more colored light return by the 2 diamonds.
Compare a step cut to a RB to a princess cut and the differences would be very extreme.
 

Paul-Antwerp

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Date: 4/29/2010 11:56:53 AM
Author: Karl_K

Date: 4/29/2010 11:42:12 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
Karl, I do not want to go too technical, although it will probably be unavoidable.

I do not agree with your assessment about ASET and IS. They do not model the potential of the stone in one type of lighting. They actually model it independently of any light-environment. In that sense, they show the true potential brilliance or light-return (if that term is preferred).

Live long,

IS/ASET are nothing more than another lighting environment.

Garry even has defined them as uniform lighting comparison devices.
IS/ASET are not JUST another lighting environment.

They colour-code the complete hemishphere above a diamond, and thus colour-code every possible light-source. That is a huge distinction with just any other light-environment, I think.

Live long,
 

Paul-Antwerp

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Date: 4/29/2010 11:54:35 AM
Author: oldminer
Karl has given the best clue yet. ''All light is colored'' ''White light does not exist'' This being the case, measuring fire is a wasted effort. Reporting it is present is sufficient.
So, if all light is colored (which obviously does not mean that we necessarily observe it as such), does that not mean that potential fire is essentially the same as potential brilliance?

Live long,
 

oldminer

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If Brillance means ALL light return and fire is the colored component of light return, then if Fire was ALL the light coming back it could not possibly be more than ALL light return. Only in a prism does all light going in come out as all colored light coming out. This is not at all diamond-like.

"Potential" is the key word here. I see absolutely no real world potential for a diamond to produce only colored light return via dispersion. However, a tinted diamond, say a fancy vivid yellow, produces virtually no white light return. Obviously, not all of this light return would be fire. It would be light tinted by the body color of the diamond. If we said no white light came back from such a tinted diamond, there still would be less than 100% fire present to my way of thinking. To me FIre is the result of Dispersion, not body color tinting. In order to measure only fire, one would need to eliminate the body tinted return color. How much of that exact body tinted color would actually be fire and how much would be body color tinted? This is way too difficult to discern and would be unreliable. And, what would it mean anyway?
 

Dancing Fire

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how does AGS measure light performance? using what type of tool? what % of AGS RBs awarded the ideal 0 light performance?
 

Serg

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Brilliance can not be correctly define for static view. It is dynamical Phenomena as Scintillation .
difference between Brilliance and Scintillation is in the type of light sources. Secondary light sources and movement create Brilliance, Primary light sources and movement create Scintillation

I know most of you can not be agree with me, and I will not even try to proof my point of view
 

oldminer

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With ImaGem Brilliance is measured by a series of static images as the diamond is turned so that the average overall light return is measured. It is not a result of a single position view. Light return amounts change as a stone is rotated. We agree that it is not good to attempt to measure it statically.
 

diagem

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Date: 4/29/2010 3:30:57 PM
Author: oldminer
With ImaGem Brilliance is measured by a series of static images as the diamond is turned so that the average overall light return is measured. It is not a result of a single position view. Light return amounts change as a stone is rotated. We agree that it is not good to attempt to measure it statically.
Dave..., how many in "a series of static images"?
 

ChunkyCushionLover

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Date: 4/29/2010 2:38:03 PM
Author: Serg
Brilliance can not be correctly define for static view. It is dynamical Phenomena as Scintillation .
difference between Brilliance and Scintillation is in the type of light sources. Secondary light sources and movement create Brilliance, Primary light sources and movement create Scintillation

I know most of you can not be agree with me, and I will not even try to proof my point of view
Please define brilliance I see two definitions and long explanations on your website.
 

Serg

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Date: 4/29/2010 5:36:36 PM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover
Date: 4/29/2010 2:38:03 PM

Author: Serg

Brilliance can not be correctly define for static view. It is dynamical Phenomena as Scintillation .

difference between Brilliance and Scintillation is in the type of light sources. Secondary light sources and movement create Brilliance, Primary light sources and movement create Scintillation


I know most of you can not be agree with me, and I will not even try to proof my point of view
Please define brilliance I see two definitions and long explanations on your website.


CCL,

re:I see two definitions and long explanations on your website

do you mean
'
Our definitions of "Brilliance" for your consideration:

First definition :

Brilliance is the characteristic of a diamond, which remains when we "take" all its appearance and "subtract" Scintillation and Fire. The human eye will see Brilliance as combination of white, gray and black zones for motionless diamond ( i.e. colored zones are eliminated).

Second definition :

The phenomenon called Brilliance consists of two parts. The first one is based on comprehension of primary/initial/incipient brightness and contrast of diamond image (motionless photo-shots taken from different positions), and this part can be called "primary approach". The second part consists of posterior/subsequent traditional comprehension of some phenomena in diamond. HUMANS seek to DEFINE WHAT WE OBSERVE AS SIMPLIFIED AND UNDERSTANDABLE CONCEPTS. THIS LED US TO ATTACHING CONCEPTUAL LABELS based on phenomena that are currently described and viewed as being negative or positive (like «Fish-Eye», «Nail Head», «Leakage», thick girdle, symmetry deviations, Tolkowsky pattern, «Ideal Cut» etc.). This can be called "the expert approach".

This "expert approach" evolved after attempts to grade the characteristics used to describe brilliance and to interpret it by viewing many diamonds. Professionals in the contemporary market have established in their minds standard images which are labeled and associated with positive or negative values that evoke specific tastes and emotions.'
http://www.cutstudy.com/cut/english/grading1/_12.htm#pb
?

It is 8 years old article . now I have idea to change first definition . I can not give clear and full definition on English ( it is not easy task even for native speaking experts)

Try something as "The human brain sees Brilliance as united dynamical pattern of white( without flashes) , gray and black zones which is reflection secondary light sources during motion ( i.e. colored zones are eliminated). Scintillation is not united pattern, it is just dynamical set of flashes . very important part of Brilliancy is increased Brightness dynamical range due motion and contrast statical pattern."

other parts this article could be more helpful for you . see for example



"
"Understanding of brilliance


Below are all the definitions of "Brilliance" that we could find. Secondly we consider why so many definitions exist followed by two definitions of "Brilliance" that match our understanding of this phenomenon.
We would be grateful if you will share your considerations, concerns and comments.

Definitions of "Brilliance":

From Tolkowsky's "Diamond Design", 1919:

The brilliancy or, as it is sometimes termed, the " fire " or the " life " of a gem thus depends entirely upon the play of light in the gem, upon the path of rays of light in the gem. If a gem is so cut or designed that every ray of light passing into it follows the best path possible for producing pleasing effects upon the eye, then the gem is perfectly cut.

Diamonds, E. Bruton (1978):

Eric Bruton F.G.A gives in his book "Diamonds" (1981) definition of brilliance that can be collected from several places of his book: "This quality of returning the maximum amount of light from the stone to the eye - from the surface lustre and from internal reflection - is knows as "life". "The fire of a gem is the display of spectrum colors (and scintillation) caused by its refracting white light before returned to the eye". "Brilliance has never been exactly defined. As it is used in a general way, it should cover all the visual properties which have been concentrated, in the two last paragraphs, into the terms "life" and "fire". .....The brilliance of a stone depends upon the optimum combination of its lifre and fire. If the two qualities could be quantified, brilliance would be at maximum when life X fire was at a maximum".

GIA Diamond Dictionary, 3rd edition:

Intensity of the internal and external reflections of white light from the crown of a polished diamond or other gemstone. Hardness, refractive index, reflectivity, polish, luster, and proportions all affect a gemstone's brilliance.

Diamond Grading ABC by V. Pagel-Theisen, 11th edition:

External brilliance - luster, produced by reflection of light on the surface of the facets; Internal brilliance - refraction and total reflection of light on the pavilion facets; Dispersive brilliance - splitting of scattering of light into its spectral colors = the dispersion which evokes the "fire" or "life" in a brilliant; Scintillation brilliance - the "sparkle" of the stone when moved, caused by light reflections of the light source.

Dodson's definition (1978):

A measure of the light that, entering the crown of the stone, is scattered out of the crown facets.

"Professional Jeweler" (July 1998) Light Return/Brilliance :

The amount of light returned to the eye, or brilliance, depends on how well the diamond in question reflects and refracts light. This includes dispersed wavelengths, which are reflected from the internal surfaces of a diamond and returned to the eye.

GIA (G&G Fall 1998):

White light returned through the crown (excluding glare - light directly reflected from the top surface).

Garry Holloway : http://www.diamond-cut.com.au/09_brill.htm

Brilliance is the human perception of diamond brightness. It is the most important feature of a beautiful diamond.

Brilliance is not simply light return, it involves complex issues that include scintillation or contrast with the added variable of human perception. However a diamond with poor light return cannot display optimal beauty.


Discussion

Today diamond appearance is described by gemologists and those in the trade in terms of Brilliance, Scintillation and Fire. These three terms are commonly accepted as completely describing diamond appearance.

Yet a literature review and comparison of trade opinions show the term "Brilliance" is not clearly defined; there is no one generally accepted definition.

Probably about 50 years ago the word "Brilliance" was used as ultimate description of the diamond appearance. At that time it was a synonymous with "Beauty". An evolution occurred that led to the term "life" to be deleted from the commonly used terms and the term "Scintillation" became commonly associated with the effect of a moving diamond. Fire too has become clearly separated as a characteristic of the colored component of Brilliance.

As you can see there are many different definitions for brilliance in a diamond.

At present time there are three different ideas of brilliance:

Diamond beauty (Life) (as 50 years ago);
Diamond beauty minus Scintillation minus Fire;
Light Return (sometimes including external luster or sometimes taking"
http://www.cutstudy.com/cut/english/grading1/11.htm

and
"Let us now analyze the light reflected by the mirror (the coefficient LRGIA) and the light entering the observer's eye (the coefficient LRMSU). We shall use the abbreviation LRGIA0 to denote the coefficient LRGIA calculated for the specific position of the lamp and the abbreviation BR0 to denote the mirror brilliance for this case.

Now suppose that we have split the mirror into 100 equal portions (for example, squares) and randomly tilted each portion by an angle that ranges from -3° to +3°.

Now the software models splitting the original mirror into 100 portions (10x10). Each of the portions is randomly tilted by an angle ranging from zero to 2 degrees. As before, the whole object swings with an amplitude of 3 degrees. In this case, the number of highlights visible at once ranges from zero to a few ones. Some of the highlights are complete, while other are just fragments."
example with mirrors
 

oldminer

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Below are the elements and definitions ImaGem, Inc. believes are essential for defining and grading the quality of light behavior in a diamond. Dr. Aggarwal would be glad to fill in the more scientific data for interested parties that I''d be unable to do with my more limited knowledge. I think these definitions are relatively simple and would not confuse people who wanted to understand them. Yet, I am assured these are accurate defintions and elegant in their simplicity.


Brilliance: a measure of a stone''s overall strength of light return that represents its average light return in the face-up position. This measure is arrived at by computing the mean gray-scale value of all pixels within the girdle portion of a diamond.


Sparkle: a measure of those spangle-like flashes of reflected and refracted light that gives diamonds what might be called “life” or "kick". The greater the number of these flashes, the higher a stone''s sparkle. This measure is arrived at by measuring the standard deviation in the gray-scale value of the light return within the girdle image.


Intensity: a measure of the number and strength of contrasting light-dark areas in the girdle portion of a diamond that give it vitality and character. The greater the stone''s symmetry the higher its intensity will be. This measure is arrived at by calculating a ratio of bright pixels to the total number of pixels within the girdle.



 

Paul-Antwerp

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Date: 4/29/2010 2:38:03 PM
Author: Serg
Brilliance can not be correctly define for static view. It is dynamical Phenomena as Scintillation .
difference between Brilliance and Scintillation is in the type of light sources. Secondary light sources and movement create Brilliance, Primary light sources and movement create Scintillation

I know most of you can not be agree with me, and I will not even try to proof my point of view
I must say that this is a novel approach, but I think that I understand what you mean and I agree (if I understand it correctly, of course).

That would however imply a totally new look at the traditional considerations of brilliance, fire and scintillation, wouldn''t it?

Live long,
 

Paul-Antwerp

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Date: 4/30/2010 8:22:03 AM
Author: oldminer

Below are the elements and definitions ImaGem, Inc. believes are essential for defining and grading the quality of light behavior in a diamond. Dr. Aggarwal would be glad to fill in the more scientific data for interested parties that I''d be unable to do with my more limited knowledge. I think these definitions are relatively simple and would not confuse people who wanted to understand them. Yet, I am assured these are accurate defintions and elegant in their simplicity.

Brilliance: a measure of a stone''s overall strength of light return that represents its average light return in the face-up position. This measure is arrived at by computing the mean gray-scale value of all pixels within the girdle portion of a diamond.

Sparkle: a measure of those spangle-like flashes of reflected and refracted light that gives diamonds what might be called “life” or ''kick''. The greater the number of these flashes, the higher a stone''s sparkle. This measure is arrived at by measuring the standard deviation in the gray-scale value of the light return within the girdle image.

Intensity: a measure of the number and strength of contrasting light-dark areas in the girdle portion of a diamond that give it vitality and character. The greater the stone''s symmetry the higher its intensity will be. This measure is arrived at by calculating a ratio of bright pixels to the total number of pixels within the girdle.

David,

I have read your replies in this thread and considered them for some time before replying.

It seems to me that you are considering only the potential ''measurement'' of these light-phenomena and disregard the theory or the aspects that can be observed, but are possibly difficult to measure.

This approach is not really helpful, if for instance, your belief that ''measuring fire is a wasted effort'' leads to not investigating what Fire actually is, how it is observed and what causes it.

Live long,
 

Serg

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Date: 4/30/2010 8:50:16 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
Date: 4/29/2010 2:38:03 PM

Author: Serg

Brilliance can not be correctly define for static view. It is dynamical Phenomena as Scintillation .

difference between Brilliance and Scintillation is in the type of light sources. Secondary light sources and movement create Brilliance, Primary light sources and movement create Scintillation


I know most of you can not be agree with me, and I will not even try to proof my point of view

I must say that this is a novel approach, but I think that I understand what you mean and I agree (if I understand it correctly, of course).


That would however imply a totally new look at the traditional considerations of brilliance, fire and scintillation, wouldn't it?


Live long,

That would however imply a totally new look at the traditional considerations of brilliance, fire and scintillation, wouldn't it?

yes, it is new for experts.
I never saw any consumer( or even sells persons) who examines diamonds in static position . Did anybody see such consumer ?
do anybody want say what consumer never saw Brilliance ?
this approach is not new for consumer. when consumer examines diamond in any real light environment he tilts diamond and see all three Phenomenas in same time ( Brilliance, Fire, Scintillation )
Because secondary light sources have much bigger angular size than typical primary light sources , the "Brilliance image" is much more slow( less dynamical ) than "Scintillation Image"
it is reason why early we considered Brilliance as statical phenomena
 

Paul-Antwerp

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The big picture, Sergey, is that I agree that none of these phenomena should be studied from a static point of view. This however implies, as you confirm, a totally new look at them, away from the traditional attempts of defining them.

In the small picture, but that only becomes an issue if our novel point-of-view gains acceptance, I do not think that the difference between Brilliance and Scintillation for one, are caused by light environment (light-sources) only. I would definitely add that the actual observer also influences the observation.

Live long,
 

oldminer

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This approach is not really helpful, if for instance, your belief that ''measuring fire is a wasted effort'' leads to not investigating what Fire actually is, how it is observed and what causes it.


Paul; I am not saying it is a wasted effort to investigate what "fire is, how it is observered, or what causes it". The entire scientific community already well knows fire is the break up of white light into its spectral color components. This is called dispersion and it is an inherent characteristic present in diamond which can be made to display it. I believe we know most of what needs to be known about how to see colored light coming out from a diamond. We could know more about how to cut diamonds to produce more or less fire in certain different light scenarios and that might be of further interest for cutters to investigate.


I am only saying that the measurement of fire, in order to grade it, is a wasted effort. I hope this is clear to every reader now.
 

Serg

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Date: 4/30/2010 9:55:57 AM
Author: oldminer
This approach is not really helpful, if for instance, your belief that 'measuring fire is a wasted effort' leads to not investigating what Fire actually is, how it is observed and what causes it.



Paul; I am not saying it is a wasted effort to investigate what 'fire is, how it is observered, or what causes it'. The entire scientific community already well knows fire is the break up of white light into its spectral color components. This is called dispersion and it is an inherent characteristic present in diamond which can be made to display it. I believe we know most of what needs to be known about how to see colored light coming out from a diamond. We could know more about how to cut diamonds to produce more or less fire in certain different light scenarios and that might be of further interest for cutters to investigate.



I am only saying that the measurement of fire, in order to grade it, is a wasted effort. I hope this is clear to every reader now.

Dave,
Dispersion is well know for scientific community, but Fire is not dispersion and Fire had not been describe yet

Do you know where Fire is bigger: when you see one big colorful flash or when do you see two smaller colorful flashes with total area as one big Flash ?

If you can give answer on this and several similar questions ( about size, saturation , brightness, number Fire flashes), you do not know what FIre is.
If you do not know what Fire is, you can not say " the measurement of fire, in order to grade it, is a wasted effort."
Both Brilliance is not average Light return and Fire is not dispersion

all these three phenomena are result Human subjective reactions on light sources passed through polished diamond.
you can not grade it correctly without connection with Human perception of the world

Imagem approach is far away from diamond cut appearance by Human
 

Paul-Antwerp

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David,

Just to make sure and clarify, I respect you highly, and while it may seem that way, I am not trying to pick on you.

You just give certain ''definite'' statements here, that offer an opportunity to make clear distinctions, that are very important in the further understanding of these events. Like this example:


Date: 4/30/2010 9:55:57 AM
Author: oldminer
Paul; I am not saying it is a wasted effort to investigate what ''fire is, how it is observered, or what causes it''. The entire scientific community already well knows fire is the break up of white light into its spectral color components. This is called dispersion and it is an inherent characteristic present in diamond which can be made to display it. I believe we know most of what needs to be known about how to see colored light coming out from a diamond. We could know more about how to cut diamonds to produce more or less fire in certain different light scenarios and that might be of further interest for cutters to investigate.

I am only saying that the measurement of fire, in order to grade it, is a wasted effort. I hope this is clear to every reader now.
Here, you are equating Fire to Dispersion.

I suggest that there is a difference between Fire and Dispersion.

Dispersion is the break-up of white light into its spectral colour components.
Fire however is the observation of these (separated) colours.
According to me, Fire is caused by Dispersion, but they are not the same.

I disagree that ''the entire scientific community'' knows most of what needs to be known about Fire, nor about other light-aspects of a diamond.

But more importantly, I absolutely disagree with the notion that this scientific research will steer further cutting-developments. My premise is that a cutter, building upon the experience of generations and actually aiming to produce for ''light performance'', very well knows what to do. The gemological world on the other hand is lagging behind in accurately defining and describing what we produce.

Live long,
 

Karl_K

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Serg,
When brilliance is discussed mainly what is discussed is static contrast brilliance.
There are other types of brilliance.
The biggest flaw in static contrast brilliance is that it does not tell you if the leakage or obstruction is hard or soft.

hard: does go away with small amounts of tilt or off axis lighting
soft: goes away with small amounts of tilt or off axis lighting.

I am working on looking into the effects of secondary lighting.

In my opinion so far, you have it backwards:
not:
Secondary light sources and movement create Brilliance, Primary light sources and movement create Scintillation
but:
Secondary light sources and movement create Scintillation, Primary light sources and movement create Brilliance

Primary light sources tend to be fairly flat in the real world, even outside in sunlight.
Flat light creates brilliance.
 
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