Brainstorm:A consumer commissioning a cut diamond from rough

[kenny]

I hope in this thread that consumers will brainstorm and post their questions, and pros will offer their thoughts and concerns.
Nothing in this thread is any reflection on any vendor or buyer who may have engaged in such a project.
Since nothing is personal feel free to speak your mind.
I will brainstorm and post some worst-case scenarios ... again nothing personal ... all hypothetical.

The more this topic is explored and fleshed out the more likely it is to happen.
Fear can be replaced with knowledge.
I hope the outcome of this thread is more customers getting the unique diamonds they want, and vendors getting more business, a win win.

In spite of all the obstacles, commissioning a diamond cut from rough material may be the only way to get a rare cut in a rare size with rare specs.
Here are some of the things I foresee that the buyer and seller must work out before such a project can proceed.

Pricing and risk are the big questions.

One possibility is the price is not set until after the diamond is polished and lab-graded.
This puts the buyer at the mercy of the seller if the buyer has agreed to buy regardless of price.
Should the buyer just trust the seller? Maybe the answer is yes.

I personally cannot see myself commissioning the cutting of rough.
So far I've only bought diamonds with an Internet-published price.
Revealing the price in private, after the seller has a chance to size up my affluence and diamond ignorance/knowledge feels different to me than seeing a price published on the Internet.
I'd be concerned I may pay a higher price than if it were published.
Also, there are few comps on a rare cut to get a sense of what a fair price is.
But people vary and there are certainly people with the comfort level to commission rough cutting, and are more trusting than I. I salute you.

Another possibility, one fixed price is set before cutting based on the middle of the range of the cutter's estimates of weight, color and clarity.
This puts both parties into a high-stakes gamble since a grade or two will dramatically change the value.
You could argue this is fair since the grades are equally likely to be better or worse than the estimate ... but then there may be concern the pre-cut and pre-grading guesses favored the seller.
That would tip the odds towards the lab report delivering lower grades, and the vendor enjoying an unfairly high 'profit'.

Below is an example of how much the price may vary based on an expert's grade/weight predictions of rough.
Because they have a large database I searched Bluenile's database for their top-cut rounds, Signature Ideal.
A range of 4 color and 4 clarity grades seems a reasonable prediction range for rough.

2.00 - 2.15 carat
I - F
VVS2 - SI1

The search found 56 diamonds, priced from $20,096 to $49,333.
With a thirty-thousand dollar spread I cannot imagine buyer or seller would agree to gamble on a single-price contract.
Plus, a search found no diamonds 1.95 to 1.99 ct and if your commissioned branded cut diamond falls there even more price variation will result.

IMO it would be in the interest of both the buyer and the vendor for the vendor, prior to cutting, to give the buyer a chart with all the weight and grade possibilities and their corresponding prices.

I've talked a lot about protecting the buyer, but what about protecting the seller?
Should the buyer sign a contract obligating him/her to buy the stone no matter what, if so at what price?
What if the buyer does not like the outcome, final price if it was to be revealed only after lab grading, ASET performance, grades, weight, gets cold feet, or has an unforeseeable financial catastrophe and can't/won't buy the polished stone?

Who takes the risk?
I read on PS that diamond can explode from the heat and mechanical stress of the cutting process.
Even if I just send in a polished diamond to remove chips I must agree to take this risk.
If it explodes on the cutting wheel the cutter is not liable.
I just lose all my money and have no recourse.

When commissioning the cutting of rough who should take the risk, me or the vendor?
If I take the risk shouldn't the price should be lower?
If the vendor takes the risk shouldn't the price should be higher?
I'm not a fan of insurance, but is there insurance for such risk?

Your thoughts please.
Consumers, would you commission the cutting of rough?
Vendors, would you engage in such a project?

 

[Karl_K]

Re: Brainstorm:A consumer commissioning a cut diamond from r

So much for waiting........

NO one is talking about accepting rough from outside sources or consumer supplied rough.

Pricing and risk are the big questions.
huge questions!!!

One possibility is the price is not set until after the diamond is polished and lab-graded.
This puts the buyer at the mercy of the seller if the buyer has agreed to buy regardless of price.
Should the buyer just trust the seller? Maybe the answer is yes.
There is going to have to be a high degree of trust

Revealing the price in private, after the seller has a chance to size up my affluence and diamond ignorance/knowledge feels different to me than seeing a price published on the Internet.
I'd be concerned I may pay a higher price than if it were published.

Lab grade rap + set percentage eliminates that worry. Maybe with a cap or max price. But that can hurt the cutter.

Another possibility, one fixed price is set before cutting based on the middle of the range of the cutter's estimates of weight, color and clarity.

That creates a lottery where some will get a great deal others an ok deal and some not so good a deal. That is bad for ones reputation. I am not sure that the average customer understands the risks and it is complex to explain in an easy manner that is not super scary.

IMO it would be in the interest of both the buyer and the vendor for the vendor, prior to cutting, to give the buyer a chart with all the weight and grade possibilities and their corresponding prices.
that is do able on a rap + basis but is a lot of work to put together.

I've talked a lot about protecting the buyer, but what about protecting the seller?
Should the buyer sign a contract obligating him/her to buy the stone no matter what, if so at what price?
It is my belief that no one should be stuck with anything but there would have to be a large non-refundable deposit. But I may get overruled on this one its one of the things we are working on.

What if the buyer does not like the outcome, final price if it was to be revealed only after lab grading, ASET performance, grades, weight, gets cold feet, or has an unforeseeable financial catastrophe and can't/won't buy the polished stone?
non-refundable deposit.
Who takes the risk?
I read on PS that diamond can explode from the heat and mechanical stress of the cutting process.
Even if I just send in a polished diamond to remove chips I must agree to take this risk.
If it explodes on the cutting wheel the cutter is not liable.
I just lose all my money and have no recourse.
The cutter is liable for it exploding is the only fair way, but what if an inclusion grows and it doesn't make weight? What is the grading comes back really low? There is no second opinion or independent grading of expected rough outcome available. And again can the average consumer understand the risks and can we explain them in a non-scary manner.

When commissioning the cutting of rough who should take the risk, me or the vendor?
If I take the risk shouldn't the price should be lower?
If the vendor takes the risk shouldn't the price should be higher?
This is where we are hung up
I'm not a fan of insurance, but is there insurance for such risk?
no

 

[Victor Canera]

Re: Brainstorm:A consumer commissioning a cut diamond from r

Hi Kenny,

I feel like I can answer this question having had a few diamonds manufactured order for clients up ’til now.

For the seller this is difficult for a couple of reasons.
Let’s say the client would like a 1.5ct G-VS2 stone but the resulting diamond is an H-Si1 or F-VS1. Although we’re able to judge the quality of the diamond relatively accurately from rough, there can always be slight movement up or down in the finished product. Many times a rough diamond can’t tell you 100% accurately what the final diamond will be because of the outer texture. There is machinery that can help with the planning of rough too but they're not 100% fool proof. The diamond can also fall below weight ie. 1.40ct vs. 1.50 for a variety of factors. This also depends on how much of a stickler you’re going to be on the polish\symmetry or the design of your stone.

In these situations, I like to provide a range of scenarios of the client as in, if the diamond ends up being a 1.50ct H-Si1 this much or a 1.40ct F-VS1 this much.

The client does not assume the risk of polishing though. If the diamond explodes during manufacturing, that can not be the client’s responsibility.

It’s a tricky situation. Diamonds are one of those things that can’t be predicted 1000% beforehand. It’s not like you’re ordering a toaster with all the specs and just be able to go into manufacturing.

As a seller, I would not want to have an order placed for a large diamond for example, and not be able to deliver 1000% exactly what the client wants and have the sale fall through and be on the hook for the rough diamond and finished product. I’ve had this proposed to me a couple of times where a client has wanted a 4-5 carat diamond polished but I felt that the slight risk wasn’t fair for the client or for me to assume. A 1 grade color\clarity movement up or down on a large diamond can be tremendous. It’s not the fault of the buyer or the seller but the inherent risk of the process.

Up until now, we’ve offered a +-1 grade color\clarity possibility to the client and things have worked out perfectly.

At the end of the day, the consumer would not not lose their money (i.e. if the diamond burst during polishing) but they should be prepared for very slightly different outcomes (on rare occasions) and have those possibilities presented to them in a clear way.

Hope this helps

 

[GeorgeStevens]

Re: Brainstorm:A consumer commissioning a cut diamond from r

Sorry if this is on a tangent, but why would someone want to buy a rough diamond and have it cut? Unless you found it yourself at that park in the Ozarks or some river delta, I can't see why anyone would want to do this.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: Brainstorm:A consumer commissioning a cut diamond from r

Sorry if this is on a tangent, but why would someone want to buy a rough diamond and have it cut? Unless you found it yourself at that park in the Ozarks or some river delta, I can't see why anyone would want to do this.

b/c it is an adventure!..

 

[kenny]

Re: Brainstorm:A consumer commissioning a cut diamond from r

So much for waiting........NO one is talking about accepting rough from outside sources or consumer supplied rough.

Sorry if this is on a tangent, but why would someone want to buy a rough diamond and have it cut? Unless you found it yourself at that park in the Ozarks or some river delta, I can't see why anyone would want to do this.

Who said anything about consumer-supplied rough?
I didn't.

The idea of consumers accessing acceptable rough at acceptable prices has been shot down many many times here on PS.
That's why I thought it went without saying.
The only possibility I see as workable is the consumer asking the vendor and/or their cutter to source appropriate rough.

 

[kenny]

Re: Brainstorm:A consumer commissioning a cut diamond from r

Are cutters paid a fixed amount per carat?
That is how we civilians are charged if we send a polished diamond in for a recut.
That would seem unfair to a cutter cutting a difficult branded design requiring a high degree of precision.

Are cutters paid more if polish and symmetry grades come back higher, or if a key-weight milestone is kept?
Am I correct in assuming the diamond cutter's skill can not improve the color or clarity grades since that's is a given property of the material?

Who usually owns/buys the rough, the cutter, the vendor, both, or is another party/broker/wholesaler/investor usually involved?

 

[kenny]

Re: Brainstorm:A consumer commissioning a cut diamond from r

Thanks Victor.
Glad to hear you've been through this process a few times, successfully.

 

[Victor Canera]

Re: Brainstorm:A consumer commissioning a cut diamond from r

Sorry if this is on a tangent, but why would someone want to buy a rough diamond and have it cut? Unless you found it yourself at that park in the Ozarks or some river delta, I can't see why anyone would want to do this.

Hi GeorgeStevens,

Usually these requests are for unusual items that aren't typically in stock. For ourselves, requests to polish from rough are usually for our branded in-house line of stones. Clients might request a large stone or for a pair of stones. We recently polished a pair of 0.80ct each Canera European Round diamonds from rough (to put into studs) to order because we didn't have the stones in stock. Another advantage to this is that in rough planning for a pair of stones will yield an almost identical pair of diamonds as opposed to matching two separate stones that are already polished.

 

[Karl_K]

Re: Brainstorm:A consumer commissioning a cut diamond from r

Are cutters paid a fixed amount per carat?
no that would not work the majority of the time with varies cuts.
That is how we civilians are charged if we send a polished diamond in for a recut.
That would seem unfair to a cutter cutting a difficult branded design requiring a high degree of precision.
The cutting cost of a stone such as Octavia is several magnitudes higher than a h&a RB
Are cutters paid more if polish and symmetry grades come back higher, or if a key-weight milestone is kept?
there are contract cutters who cut others rough and the answer would be yes to that. Most cutters source the rough and cut it both and anything that effects value means they make more
Am I correct in assuming the diamond cutter's skill can not improve the color or clarity grades since that's is a given property of the material? color until you get to fancy colors but clarity is a different matter, a lot of times a cutter will have to choice between a smaller stone of higher clarity or a larger stone with lower clarity sometimes in the middle of the cutting process. This also complicates selling from rough.

Who usually owns/buys the rough, the cutter, the vendor, both, or is another party/broker/wholesaler/investor usually involved?
cutter the vast majority of the time. Sometimes the cutter will sell the vendor the rough and charge a cutting fee. The vendor never touches it until after its cut. Then the vendor carries the risk not the cutter. There are contract cutting houses that cut other companies rough.

 

[Rhino]

Re: Brainstorm:A consumer commissioning a cut diamond from r

Hey there ol friend,

Great questions and great thread. I was going to build on the conversation in the other thread but since you posted here I'll proceed to answer your questions directly and be as transparent as humanly possible.

Pricing and risk are the big questions.

One possibility is the price is not set until after the diamond is polished and lab-graded.
This puts the buyer at the mercy of the seller if the buyer has agreed to buy regardless of price.
Should the buyer just trust the seller? Maybe the answer is yes.

Ultimately that is the question. Since this thread is stemming off the thread concerning Dancing Fire's commission of cutting from rough a 2ct+ sized Octavia I can tell you that DF and myself have an already established client/vendor trust relationship which stems back years. Concerning your first sentence Kenny... "One possibility is the price is not set until after the diamond is polished and lab-graded."

Not true in the circumstance of cutting from rough. One thing that is in fact set is the price. DF and I, before proceeding agreed on price not exceeding x amount and I ensured this with Yoram. Ie. Before commissioning this project I had to know up front that my cost would not exceed X in order to guarantee DF that his cost would not exceed Y.

I personally cannot see myself commissioning the cutting of rough.
So far I've only bought diamonds with an Internet-published price.
Revealing the price in private, after the seller has a chance to size up my affluence and diamond ignorance/knowledge feels different to me than seeing a price published on the Internet.

I understand that concern. Believe me when I tell you that if I had ANY doubts concerning Yoram's ability to select the right rough crystals for the projects commissioned by clients or my own personal buying from rough (which he purchases on my behalf) I would not put any client at risk. The key Kenny is *communication*. I communicate clearly what the expectations are from the rough with regards to what we expect in the finished product and guarantee a "range" set by Yoram, arrange a deposit to cover the project and proceed.

I'd be concerned I may pay a higher price than if it were published.
Also, there are few comps on a rare cut to get a sense of what a fair price is.
But people vary and there are certainly people with the comfort level to commission rough cutting, and are more trusting than I. I salute you.

Which leads to the pros/cons of doing this and what Karl, Yoram and myself have been talking about privately in email. Here is the straight dope my friend. When purchasing and cutting from rough there is a certain degree of risk involved. A rough crystal can be purchased figuring/hoping at x color and x clarity with an estimation on the weight +/- but as you know 1 difference in a grade either way can impact value by hundreds or thousands of dollars. This is the risk we take on the wholesale level. At times we profit and at times we do not. If the latter far outweighed the former we'd not be in business of course.

Yoram, Karl and myself, in the case of Octavia have opened up this opportunity for the consumer to directly get involved in this process HOWEVER at the same time they are also bearing the same risks we are and this is communicated up front. If you note in the beginning of DF's thread he stated precisely what we communicated to him regarding the commission of this project.

"Remarks from Yoram...
My estimated opinion:
Polished weight estimation: 2.34 to 2.23ct+/-
Color: 10% G - 20% H - 50% I - 20% J.
Clarity: VS++ (I can’t visualize any inclusions in its natural rough state), but as you notice in the image, it’s a bit frosty.
Positives: Blue fluorescence which has the potential for a whiter outcome.
Clarity looks loupe clean in its rough state."

The key is transparency and clear communication. At the final culmination of the project after it is sent to AGS the diamond will either come out at fair market value, over fair market value or under fair market value. It is the risk we enter at the wholesale level and if the consumer would like to participate at this level we are opening up this opportunity on a more grand level. Nobody is twisting anyone's arm.

Another possibility, one fixed price is set before cutting based on the middle of the range of the cutter's estimates of weight, color and clarity.
This puts both parties into a high-stakes gamble since a grade or two will dramatically change the value.
You could argue this is fair since the grades are equally likely to be better or worse than the estimate ... but then there may be concern the pre-cut and pre-grading guesses favored the seller.
That would tip the odds towards the lab report delivering lower grades, and the vendor enjoying an unfairly high 'profit'.

Precisely which is why trust is important ... knowing the vendor and his reputation and the cutter and his reputation. I am happy to either proceed or cancel this opportunity at any time but my feeling is this my friend. If the consumer wishes to enter this level of risk we take at the wholesale level I say give them the opportunity. I am a strong advocate for freedom of choice and if the consumer wishes to participate at this level, I say give it to them. If they don't care to take the risks we do then they can always purchase already polished rough where the risks have already been taken.

Below is an example of how much the price may vary based on an expert's grade/weight predictions of rough.
Because they have a large database I searched Bluenile's database for their top-cut rounds, Signature Ideal.
A range of 4 color and 4 clarity grades seems a reasonable prediction range for rough.

2.00 - 2.15 carat
I - F
VVS2 - SI1

The search found 56 diamonds, priced from $20,096 to $49,333.
With a thirty-thousand dollar spread I cannot imagine buyer or seller would agree to gamble on a single-price contract.
Plus, a search found no diamonds 1.95 to 1.99 ct and if your commissioned branded cut diamond falls there even more price variation will result.

IMO it would be in the interest of both the buyer and the vendor for the vendor, prior to cutting, to give the buyer a chart with all the weight and grade possibilities and their corresponding prices.

If this was done I don't think anyone would enter the contract including myself. This project with DF I've done with others in the past but in general when we are custom cutting I can do so either from rough or from polished diamonds not cut to AVC/AVR/Octavia standard. When REcutting the finished color/clarity is pretty predictable. From rough, as you see it is not so, there are certain guarantees in place between cutter and vendor. Believe you me my friend ... if ANY cutter (and I work with more than one) consistently sends me diamonds that are overpriced and far exceed market value the majority of the time I cut them off. I've done this in the past already because if I can't offer consumers fairly priced diamonds and justification for the quality of workmanship I pull out. Plain and simple. Yoram's products far exceed my expectations and he has always been fair in his picking and pricing. On the grand scale I can honestly say he has been more than fair but this is on the wholesale level. The one thing we are concerned about (and Karl has been raising Cain about it) is should that happen to just one consumer they will vent, cry and weep about it here on the forums making us look like the "bad guys". It is for this reason alone that we are hesitant about making this known on the grand scale (oops ... did I just say that on a public forum? ) As stated earlier if a consumer wishes to enter at this level of risk they stand to either profit, get what they fairly paid for or even perhaps not. Regardless of the scenario they are getting involved at a level that is rarely offered to consumers and they get to see and know the details of their diamond from rough state to finished project all along the road to completion. It is my goal to fly to Israel and record this entire process with our video cameras.

I've talked a lot about protecting the buyer, but what about protecting the seller?
Should the buyer sign a contract obligating him/her to buy the stone no matter what, if so at what price?
What if the buyer does not like the outcome, final price if it was to be revealed only after lab grading, ASET performance, grades, weight, gets cold feet, or has an unforeseeable financial catastrophe and can't/won't buy the polished stone?

Hence why I do not commit to these projects unless the consumer commits. I trust Yoram's assessment but ultimately the consumer must trust the both of us and the assessment. It is why Yoram gives the estimations as he does. In the end all parties must be comfortable.

Who takes the risk?
I read on PS that diamond can explode from the heat and mechanical stress of the cutting process.
Even if I just send in a polished diamond to remove chips I must agree to take this risk.
If it explodes on the cutting wheel the cutter is not liable.
I just lose all my money and have no recourse.

Yoram has never subjected me to this although I have personally experienced this on the wholesale level and I hate to say it but with a rough crystal we expected to finish around 9-10ct. (huge loss for us personally). My arrangement with Yoram is I don't pay for what he doesn't deliver. Does it always come out the SAME color/clarity he predicts? No but most of the time yes.

When commissioning the cutting of rough who should take the risk, me or the vendor?
If I take the risk shouldn't the price should be lower?
If the vendor takes the risk shouldn't the price should be higher?
I'm not a fan of insurance, but is there insurance for such risk?

To question #1 we both take the risk. Both vendor and consumer.
To question #2 ... is there insurance for such risk? I don't think there is otherwise I'd have it.

Your thoughts please.
Consumers, would you commission the cutting of rough?
Vendors, would you engage in such a project?

I am as long as the consumer is willing to take the risk along with me. As stated, nobody is twisting arms. You might ask ... what is the value add to consumers? There are many who, beyond the monetary risks simply enjoy the process of being involved at the wholesale level, seeing the rough crystal in it's raw form, watching progress and knowing the provenance from start to finish.

Hope this helps Kenny and if my response has inspired any other questions feel free to shoot.

Kindest regards,
Jonathan

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: Brainstorm:A consumer commissioning a cut diamond from r

You guys heard it from "the Rhino's mouth"..so to speak..

 

[OoohShiny]

Re: Brainstorm:A consumer commissioning a cut diamond from r

Some great info from the big league players, thank you all


It almost sounds a bit like betting / gambling on horses or dogs - you look at the figures, you work out the form, you decide if you like the odds on a rough or parcel of rough, then you put down your money and hope the horse (rough) comes home better than you expected. If so, you win more than you thought. If not, you might not make as much as you hoped or be a little out of pocket. In a worst case scenario, the horse falls at a fence and is out of the race completely (i.e. the rough explodes).

The higher the risk / odds, the higher the potential returns, although also the higher potential losses.

Like all gambling, it looks like a game you should only play if you have the money to spare and can afford to lose it all! lol

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Re: Brainstorm:A consumer commissioning a cut diamond from r

Not having read the other original thread, I do not understand the feeling of 'uncertainty' in this thread. Seeing Rhino's answer, I agree that such is not a procedure suitable for everyone, but it remains relatively easy to pursue, if there is a mutual relationship of trust.

The question in basis is a consumer having a request, not readily available, thus looking for a supply-channel to get what he desires.

Let us assume for a second that you are that consumer, and I represent the supply-channel back to the rough.

In essence, all I need to know is what your specific request is. Then, it comes down to me to find a way to suitably supply this. As far as risk and price goes, this is my problem, and should not be yours. I should have the expertise to give you a decent estimate of the final stone, and the price-tag attached.

If it comes out better than foreseen, it is a windfall-benefit for you. After all, I was happy with the profit of the estimation. Why should I charge more if my estimation is worse than final outcome?

If it comes out worse than foreseen, price can be adapted downwards or the customer can walk away and wait for another starting-stone. Why should you be forced to accept something that you did not commit to?

Two other factors are important in this process, however.

Number one is time. Depending upon the specific nature of the request, it may take time to find a suitable starting-stone. Then comes a production-process, followed by a grading-process, finally distribution towards the consumer. One can only go this way if one has patience.

Number two is the reality of the request. I am for instance in negociation on a matching couple of cut-to-order 10Ct. D-IF's. Technically, there are minor problems, but the big thing here is that I will want to be absolutely sure about the sale going forward. If not, I have no desire to be stuck with 2 10Ct-stones, as my normal market does not have such demand.

The same applies in less exuberant cases. You may want a D-color with Very Strong fluo. Nice, but I will be weighing the risk of the sale not going through and the sell-through of the stone, when approaching this.

Same thing, if somebody wants a 1.90Ct. Totally acceptable, but impossible to supply unless a 2Ct-price is paid. And then, I advise against that, why would you think about paying a 2Ct-price and not get a 2Ct-stone?

Live long,

 

[SB621]

Re: Brainstorm:A consumer commissioning a cut diamond from r

I really have missed these types of threads on PS. Thank you to Karl, Victor, Paul, Rhino and anyone else I might have missed on weighing in. I have some follow up questions but have to wait till kids are in bed. Just had to give kudos first!

 

[OoohShiny]

Re: Brainstorm:A consumer commissioning a cut diamond from r

I am for instance in negociation on a matching couple of cut-to-order 10Ct. D-IF's. Technically, there are minor problems, but the big thing here is that I will want to be absolutely sure about the sale going forward. If not, I have no desire to be stuck with 2 10Ct-stones, as my normal market does not have such demand.

Apologies for the Off Topic but...

 

[AprilBaby]

Re: Brainstorm:A consumer commissioning a cut diamond from r

Sorry if this is on a tangent, but why would someone want to buy a rough diamond and have it cut? Unless you found it yourself at that park in the Ozarks or some river delta, I can't see why anyone would want to do this.

What if I did go to the Ozarks and find a diamond? Would anyone cut it? Would it have to go somewhere to be legal? (I'm being serious)

 

[Karl_K]

Re: Brainstorm:A consumer commissioning a cut diamond from r

Sorry if this is on a tangent, but why would someone want to buy a rough diamond and have it cut? Unless you found it yourself at that park in the Ozarks or some river delta, I can't see why anyone would want to do this.

What if I did go to the Ozarks and find a diamond? Would anyone cut it? Would it have to go somewhere to be legal? (I'm being serious)

The park will give you a verifiable Kimberly certificate and they have a list of cutters that will cut them.
If you find it outside the park getting it cut is much more problematic and in today's climate likely impossible unless your a mining company.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: Brainstorm:A consumer commissioning a cut diamond from r

Sorry if this is on a tangent, but why would someone want to buy a rough diamond and have it cut? Unless you found it yourself at that park in the Ozarks or some river delta, I can't see why anyone would want to do this.

What if I did go to the Ozarks and find a diamond? Would anyone cut it? Would it have to go somewhere to be legal? (I'm being serious)

The park will give you a verifiable Kimberly certificate and they have a list of cutters that will cut them.
If you find it outside the park getting it cut is much more problematic and in today's climate likely impossible unless your a mining company.

then you smuggle it into the park and claim that's where you found the rough...

 

[OoohShiny]

Re: Brainstorm:A consumer commissioning a cut diamond from r

Sorry if this is on a tangent, but why would someone want to buy a rough diamond and have it cut? Unless you found it yourself at that park in the Ozarks or some river delta, I can't see why anyone would want to do this.

What if I did go to the Ozarks and find a diamond? Would anyone cut it? Would it have to go somewhere to be legal? (I'm being serious)

The park will give you a verifiable Kimberly certificate and they have a list of cutters that will cut them.
If you find it outside the park getting it cut is much more problematic and in today's climate likely impossible unless your a mining company.

then you smuggle it into the park and claim that's where you found the rough...

That's like smuggling in reverse!

I feel like I've slipped into an alternative reality LOL

 

[Karl_K]

Re: Brainstorm:A consumer commissioning a cut diamond from r

One of the things I worry about is customers understanding of risks.
DF speaks diamonds and understands the risks.
If it is opened to just anyone can they fully understand the risks without scaring them if they have no experience or knowledge of diamonds?
What is an acceptable level of risk?

 

[kenny]

Re: Brainstorm:A consumer commissioning a cut diamond from r

One of the things I worry about is customers understanding of risks.
DF speaks diamonds and understands the risks.
If it is opened to just anyone can they fully understand the risks without scaring them if they have no experience or knowledge of diamonds?
What is an a?

Acceptable level of risk depends on the person.

You must disclose the truth.
Some will be 'scared', others not.

I think it would be a mistake to withhold some info about the risks to protect customers from getting scared.

Let's face it; It's a scary process, and not for everyone.
At the end of the day if a person wants X they must understand and accept the process.

Based on what Paul and Jon have posted it sounds like much less risk with Paul.
Compare their posts.
Maybe the risk is identical, but they surely do come across differently.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Re: Brainstorm:A consumer commissioning a cut diamond from r

One of the things I worry about is customers understanding of risks.
DF speaks diamonds and understands the risks.
If it is opened to just anyone can they fully understand the risks without scaring them if they have no experience or knowledge of diamonds?
What is an a?

Acceptable level of risk depends on the person.

You must disclose the truth.
Some will be 'scared', others not.

I think it would be a mistake to withhold some info about the risks to protect customers from getting scared.

Let's face it; It's a scary process, and not for everyone.
At the end of the day if a person wants X they must understand and accept the process.

Based on what Paul and Jon have posted it sounds like much less risk with Paul.
Compare their posts.
Maybe the risk is identical, but they surely do come across differently.

Different business models and different cuts of diamonds in question makes me think the risk is actually different (i..e. its not a matter of tone). Thinking out loud: Paul can "afford" to allow consumers a door out, so to speak, because he has a larger market by virtue of his business and cutting MRBs/PRincess stones. The risk is lower for him because he can easily move the commissioned stone if the consumers backs out, assuming the desired specs are not too wierd. Different situation for Rhino, who has a smaller market by virtue of his business model and the specialty cut; especially this latter factor I bet. So risk is higher because it would be much harder to sell the finished piece if the consumer backs out. So they need different policies. Paul hinted at this, by suggesting he needed a more firm committment from a buyer for a pair of 10ct D IF stones than for a 2ct H VS2, precisely because the former would be more difficult to sell. A 2ct Octavia seems more akin to a 10ct D IF MRB than to a 2ct H VS2 MRB, in terms of market demand.

As to communicating with consumers about this process, Karl, I think you should be as scary as possible! You want consumers entering things with eyes wide open, like DF, not with pie in the sky ideals. I can only imagine this ever being a boutique experience for a very small segment of the consumer population with enough knowledge to understand the process It seems a consumer needs to have knowledge of the whole diamond industry to really understand the risks, though, and make the choice.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: Brainstorm:A consumer commissioning a cut diamond from r

[quote="kenny|
Let's face it; It's a scary process, and not for everyone.
At the end of the day if a person wants X they must understand and accept the process.

Based on what Paul and Jon have posted it sounds like much less risk with Paul.
Compare their posts.
Maybe the risk is identical, but they surely do come across differently.[/quote]


Kenny, you must have "balls" to take this kind of risk...

 

[kenny]

Re: Brainstorm:A consumer commissioning a cut diamond from r

Kenny, you must have "balls" to take this kind of risk...

DF, is this you?

http://www.youngherald.com/man-with-100-pound-scrotum-to-raise-money-for-operation/732/

 

[Karl_K]

Re: Brainstorm:A consumer commissioning a cut diamond from r

One of the things I worry about is customers understanding of risks.
DF speaks diamonds and understands the risks.
If it is opened to just anyone can they fully understand the risks without scaring them if they have no experience or knowledge of diamonds?
What is an a?

Acceptable level of risk depends on the person.
That is true.
You must disclose the truth.
Some will be 'scared', others not.

I think it would be a mistake to withhold some info about the risks to protect customers from getting scared.
Withholding information is not an option any of us would ever consider.
Let's face it; It's a scary process, and not for everyone.
At the end of the day if a person wants X they must understand and accept the process.
That is true.
Based on what Paul and Jon have posted it sounds like much less risk with Paul.
Compare their posts.
Maybe the risk is identical, but they surely do come across differently.

There is different risks with different sizes and different cuts due to the market size.
Custom cutting a pair of 1ct h-i-vs ideal cuts there is little risk because the market for them is large.
A 2ct+ fancy cut has a much smaller market, therefor more risk.

2x 10ct D/IF is super scary because of the very limited market and the huge investment if the deal goes south.
That would give me nightmares!

 

[pyramid]

Re: Brainstorm:A consumer commissioning a cut diamond from r

This is a great thread.

I think the piece of rough after the cutter has given his estimations would need to be exactly what the consumer wants or could live with. In other words the higher percentage would be the likely outcome but if the lower percentages were the outcome they would need to be happy with that too unless there was a get out clause. If they have to accept the diamond, they would need to be sure of this beforehand and also the possibility things could go lower. Higher being good news.

The consumers also need to be 100% sure they want an octavia cut and that they want to buy from this vendor.

Trust is of the utmost importance, if it is not there, then no point proceeding any further (just like a romantic relationship).

Can't wait to see DF's diamond and very excited for him.

 

[AprilBaby]

Re: Brainstorm:A consumer commissioning a cut diamond from r

Kenny, you must have "balls" to take this kind of risk...

DF, is this you?

http://www.youngherald.com/man-with-100-pound-scrotum-to-raise-money-for-operation/732/

Didn't that poor first guy die after the operation?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Re: Brainstorm:A consumer commissioning a cut diamond from r

I must confess to being late to the party and having only recently arrived home after the PS GTG in Vegas (via France and Italy - its a tough life) that there is the possability to add more science and predictability into recutting.
Here on DB is a selection of recuts from existing polished - and of course that is easier than from rough, but the stakes are high to much higher.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gkz59nfan4zgho7/AAC8U8WT-ganbvHAccwkz_6Aa#lh:null-Z642.JPG
it may take a while to download all 44 pairs.
Enjoy. Where is Kenny?

Edited to note that Yoram considers this cheating. I think its just cleva

 

[gregchang35]

Re: Brainstorm:A consumer commissioning a cut diamond from r

WOW GAry!

Some of these transformations are amazing!!!!! ranging from 0.1ct reduction to abotu 3ct reduction!

There is definitely a difference in colour when they are recut.... and of course their final value increased to include the cutters fee/ expertise and the vendors risk of recutting..

Amazed that a round can be recut to a cushion.