Blue gold - any pics/info?

[Undercover999]

Calling all pics of blue gold - alloy, intermetallic, oxide, or inteference coating, lets see em!

I've done a bunch of googling but I'm hoping you pricescopers have some stuff I haven't already found/seen. Thanks!

 

[AGBF]

Calling all pics of blue gold - alloy, intermetallic, oxide, or inteference coating, lets see em!

I've done a bunch of googling but I'm hoping you pricescopers have some stuff I haven't already found/seen. Thanks!

Hi, Undercover999-

I don't have any personal pictures of pieces made in blue gold, but different colored gold has been discussed on Pricescope before. This thread provides a link to an article about what was, then, a new way to make blue and purple gold. If you know of newer technologies, perhaps you would share them with us. Some of us are interested in gold.

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/question-for-goldsmiths.126689/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/question-for-goldsmiths.126689/[/URL]

Deb/AGBF

 

[Undercover999]

My situation is that Kelly is very pleased with her homemade e-ring (remember this?) and shes decided that we should make my wedding ring as well. I don't like jewelry but I do really like the color blue. We don't have a design chosen but we're pretty sure that we'll do something like a white gold ring with a blue "stripe" around the middle... maybe recessed if the blue material is fragile, like an oxide layer. We think we'll melt down the "leftovers" from her own ring so that our rings will be made out of the same metal.

I'm no jeweler, or a metallurgist, etc, but I've done some experimenting, this is what I've found/know:

Intermetallic compound

Usually this gets mentioned in the same breath as purple gold, as its very similar. The problem is that the blue color kinda, well... sucks. With purple gold (the intermetallic compound of aluminum and gold) the purple color is strong and quite striking. However until recently there was next to no information on the exact color of the blue gold, except that wikipedia said that indium/gold had a "clear blue color" while gallium/gold had a "blueish hue"... I've since editted wikipedia with what I found.

Anyway, I figured the quickest way to find out the color was to just make some, so I did.

Here is 0.23g of gold with 0.27g of indium - the proper amounts for the 46/54% intermetallic which was said to have a "clear blue" color.


Upon melting it does form a nice blue color... but sadly that is only the oxide layer.


When polished that oxide is removed and you get the true color of "blue gold", which is in fact mostly grey:


Bummer.

One wonders if perhaps I've done something wrong, given how widely the information on this "blue gold" persists on the internet. Only after the fact did I finally find a papers with some concrete info. "Metallurgy and processing of coloured gold intermetallics — Part I: Properties and surface processing" by Ulrich E. Klotz mentions that Au/In "blue gold" has CIE color coordinates of 79, -3.7, -4.2 (this is the info I added to wikipedia) which to a 1st order approximation looks like this.

Also the second half of that paper, "Metallurgy and processing of coloured gold intermetallics – Part II: Investment casting and related alloy design" by Fischer-Buhner, Basso, and Poliero even has some photos of blue gold, and even one comparing it with purple gold:





While I admit that the metal is blue-ish, this is FAR less blue than purple gold is purple. I'm looking for more of a deep or even navy blue color, so the "blue" intermetallics, in my mind, aren't very blue.

Oxide layer

The picture in your link is one I've seen before as an example of oxide-layer blue gold:


Another example I've seen in several papers and pages was this one, apparent by Ludwig Muller:


I found three more examples in "BLUE, BLACK AND PURPLE! THE SPECIAL COLOURS OF GOLD" by Dr Christopher W. Corti:



I think these colors are great, though as oxide layers they're fragile and wouldn't hold up to constant rubbing, so they'd need to be protected.

Now the big question... how to make these?

The second example, by Muller above, is apparently described in patent #5059255, which you can read here: http://www.google.com/patents/US5059255 Basically its 85% gold, 14.4-14.5% iron, and .5-.6% nickel, oxidized at 600C for 10-12 minutes. Simple, right? HA.

So I took 425mg of gold, 72.5mg of iron, and 2.5mg of nickel:


Alloyed and polished (no, thats not a bead or anything, the hole is just a defect):


After heat treating I get this. Note that these are the same sample in different lights:



I watched this alloy through the heat treat as it progressed from white-ish to brown to black. In between brown and black, lasting only about 1 minute, I believe I did see a very blue stage, not unlike that described in the patent. I am going to try again and be careful to remove it from the heat when its at its bluest. We'll see.

In addition I got a tip from someone who worked for a jeweler who recalled that they made a blue oxide by immersing high-iron golds into molten potassium nitrate. It was worth a try so I repolished the above sample and tried it. Nope:


I guess the 75/14.5/.5 alloy isn't the proper one for a KNO3 dip.

I also know of a crazy-sounding alloy described in patent 4820487, here: http://www.google.com/patents?id=Ygo0AAAAEBAJ No less than 8 metals in that alloy. However it claims:

There is thus obtained a gold bar of beautiful iridescent blue color. The shade of the color obtained depends on the time and temperature at which the metal piece is left. Lighter colors are obtained when the temperature is brought down and darker colors when the temperature is brought up.

There is also one note in the patent that says:

A gold and iron alloy which has an exceedingly attractive peacock blue color is already known.

Perhaps that is the alloy I should use with the KNO3 dip... but I have no composition information. I'll do a test.

 

[Undercover999]

Oh one more.

While I prefer blue gold, niobium also will develop a nice blue color with a carefully controlled oxide layer (as niobium oxide is transparent). I tried it so that I'd have a backup plan if I can't make the blue gold work. This is quite easy.

Before:



After anodizing in a sulphuric acid bath at 25V:

 

[AGBF]

Oh one more.

While I prefer blue gold, niobium also will develop a nice blue color with a carefully controlled oxide layer (as niobium oxide is transparent). I tried it so that I'd have a backup plan if I can't make the blue gold work. This is quite easy.

The blue niobium is gorgeous, but my last chemistry class was so many years ago that I had to go look niobium up to have any recollection whatsoever of what it was! When I did, I found this:

"Niobium and its compounds may be toxic (niobium dust causes eye and skin irritation) , but there are no reports of human being poisoned by it. Apart from measuring its concentration, no research on niobium in humans has been undertaken.

Niobium, when inhaled, is retained mainly in the lungs, and secondarily in bones. It interferes with calcium as an activator of enzyme systems. In laboratory animals, inhalation of niobium nitride and/or pentoxide leads to scarring of the lungs at exposure levels of 40 mg/m3."

The above information would make me wary about wearing a ring with niobium in it! Who knows what the long term effects of niobium rubbing against your skin all day every day would be? Besides, I like the idea of gold!

Deb/AGBF

 

[AGBF]

My situation is that Kelly is very pleased with her homemade e-ring (remember this?) and shes decided that we should make my wedding ring as well. I don't like jewelry but I do really like the color blue. We don't have a design chosen but we're pretty sure that we'll do something like a white gold ring with a blue "stripe" around the middle... maybe recessed if the blue material is fragile, like an oxide layer. We think we'll melt down the "leftovers" from her own ring so that our rings will be made out of the same metal.

I may be the only person on Pricescope who didn't know the story of the handmade ring, but I didn't know it until tonight, Undercover999! You are a prolific writer and I am having trouble keeping up with you. I just had a chance to click on the link above and I therefore just found the thread about the ring you made for your fiancée, Kelly. Like everyone who followed the thread as you made the ring, I am incredibly impressed by it. You certainly took that engagement ring seriously! I am assuming that you will therefore be entering into the manufacturing of blue gold with the same verve!

I only had time to respond to the idea of your using niobium in a ring when I posted earlier. You posted a lot more today about your work with trying to make blue gold that deserves a response, however. I will try to get back to you about it...and I hope that others will, too. There are experts posting here with far more to offer than I have! I feel you deserve their help because you appear to be a man on a mission!

Deb/AGBF

 

[Imdanny]

I thought we ussed lapis or blue enamel for this. Blue and purple gold? That's new to me.

 

[JewelFreak]

Me too, Danny. Something new around here every day!

--- Laurie

 

[AGBF]

Here's a link to a little more information on Mr. Antoniazzi! (Thanks for digging him up for us, Undercover!) I have to go back to read it now; I just skimmed it. What I want to know is how he could could make 24K blue gold, which is what I thought I read. Surely that is impossible! 24K gold is pure gold. Maybe I saw 22K and misread! Back I go!

Link to article:
http://multiculturalcanada.ca/node/328297/full

Deb/AGBF

 

[Undercover999]

Here's a link to a little more information on Mr. Antoniazzi! (Thanks for digging him up for us, Undercover!) I have to go back to read it now; I just skimmed it. What I want to know is how he could could make 24K blue gold, which is what I thought I read. Surely that is impossible! 24K gold is pure gold. Maybe I saw 22K and misread! Back I go!

Link to article:
http://multiculturalcanada.ca/node/328297/full

Deb/AGBF

re. the 24k bit, that appears to be a bit of journalistic imprecision. The article says:

He succeeded in producing blue gold - a pure 24k gold, with all the characteristics of that metal - its rich warm color was achieved by a thermic process in which gold alloy is fused with other metals.

It would, of course, be impossible to be 24k if it was "gold alloy" or if it was "fused with other metals." The report was just confused, it seems.

 

[AGBF]

You asked if anyone had any pics or info, Undercover. I think I found some info. I mean I think I am onto something. I am just not, yet, sure what. I am sharing as I go along and you are welcome to jump in.

I found a website that seems pretty obscure-it seems to have only a little over 1400 hits-based In Rome, Italy. The man who runs it has a lab where he manufactures colored gold and makes pieces of jewelry out of it, especially blue and purple gold jewelry. I just skimmed the website, and read nothing about the processes he uses. My Italian is pretty rudimentary and and reading about any chemistry or metallurgy would tax my abilities, let alone doing so in Italian. Even if I found a description of how he works on his website, which I didn't. But my point is that he may be a lead. If his work is good, perhaps you and he can exchange e-mails. But I am getting waaaaay ahead of myself. All I did so far was skim the site. I am returning, now, to read it. I just got excited and had to share!

http://www.laboratorioarteorafa.it/

Deb/AGBF

 

[JewelFreak]

What an interesting website, Deb! Very New Age via ancient techniques of alchemy & astrology. He says he uses 7 metals to create 18K and 12K blue & purple gold according to a discovery in the 16th century (I think -- lost the "blue gold" part & couldn't get it to show again). Anyway, curative powers to be had. Would be fun to see more of this pieces, they're nice. Don't think there's a lot of specific info for Undercover, but as you said, maybe emails would be enlightening. Such amazing people to be found on the internet!

--- Laurie

 

[Undercover999]

I speak no italian and Google's translator thing really mangled that page, so its Greek to me. My initial assumption would be that he's referring to "ordinary" blue/purple gold intermetallic compounds, as Au/Al purple gold is 18kt and Au/In blue gold is 11-12kt; which are the numbers he mentioned.

 

[AGBF]

Well...I probably should add that I e-mailed the owner of the website and he wrote back to me. His name, as it says on the website, is Sirio. He does not speak either English or French, however, and my Italian is too limited to allow me to communicate very well with him. He told me that he did not use the traditional methods to produce blue and purple gold, but since I do not know what the traditional methods are (sorry, Undercover), and I didn't feel up to the challenge of a discussion of methods, I let it go.

I know that JewelFreak speaks some Italian. Are you equipped to discuss methods of coloring gold with him, Laurie?

Deb/AGBF

 

[JewelFreak]

Deb -- this guy is a flake. Here's what his website says:

The Sirio laboratory of gold art also researches ancient alchemical alloys which can be adapted for work with objects and jewelry of esoteric symbolism, such as astrology, energy-amulets, etc.

To that end, we produce exclusively in our laboratory ancient alloys of gold and silver base, but composed of 7 metals, called electro discovery. It was described by Teofrasti Paracelso (1493-1541), who divulged the technique of fusion and its energy power.

These alloys are not simply a mixture of metals in prescribed proportions, but are possible only through specific astrological-alchemical procedures, without which the same mixture of the alloyed elements is impossible to realize.

In other words, he buys his gold in Milan, gets out a dusty book & says some gobbledigook while waving his hands, and ** SHAZAM!**
imbues it with New Age powers. Don't think he'd be real forthcoming about his "non-traditional" methods. I got a huge kick out of reading it. Sorry, Undercover, I don't think this is your guy!

--- Laurie

 

[AGBF]

Deb -- this guy is a flake.

...

In other words, he buys his gold in Milan, gets out a dusty book & says some gobbledigook while waving his hands, and ** SHAZAM!**
imbues it with New Age powers. Don't think he'd be real forthcoming about his "non-traditional" methods. I got a huge kick out of reading it. Sorry, Undercover, I don't think this is your guy!

Well...sorry to waste the time of anyone who bothered listening to me. What can I say?

Thank you, Laurie, for clarifying!!!

Big hugs,
Deb

 

[TheDoctor]

If you can pull any of this off I will fund your successful search for Sasquatch and a bonus for Unicorns.
One major problem with web research is that you never get the whole story.
The purples and blues produced thus far are totally un-workable, can't be milled, cast, or shaped. Can't be worn or altered or enjoyed like jewellery. They are simply colorful little ingots that will crumble because the "alloyed" metals are not homogenous, the grain structure is totally unstable.

 

[Undercover999]

If you can pull any of this off I will fund your successful search for Sasquatch and a bonus for Unicorns.
One major problem with web research is that you never get the whole story.
The purples and blues produced thus far are totally un-workable, can't be milled, cast, or shaped. Can't be worn or altered or enjoyed like jewellery. They are simply colorful little ingots that will crumble because the "alloyed" metals are not homogenous, the grain structure is totally unstable.

That applies to the intermetallics, of course. The oxide-layer blues, at least for the formulas I've found so far, are cast and workable.

Trying some new experiments tonight, stay tuned.

 

[LadyMaria]

I can't contribute much to the conversation (I can get my 8th grade students to find the numbers of protons, neutrons, and electrons in niobium though) but I just have to say Undercover, you are amazing!

 

[AGBF]

I admit to to prowling around on the 'net. One finds unusual things. Apparently it is not unusual nowadays, when one is making alloys of gold, to call oneself an alchemist. This surprised me.

I had decided to try to understand Undercover's work so far, so I was reading over what he had done. Then I looked at the examples of others' work-and thought how much I liked the color of Steven Kretchmer's blue gold. I decided to read more about him. (I did. Depending on the source, he either was commissioned by Harry Winston to discover how to make blue and purple gold and worked for Harry Winston for years or he spent a few years working for Harry Winston and he also discovered a way to make blue gold.)

While looking for information on Steven Kretchmer's blue gold, I came across this. He seems like a handy guy to have around! As I said, until now, I didn't know many alchemists.

http://adammastropaolo.com/

Deb/AGBF

 

[Undercover999]

I tried two things tonight.

1) I tried dipping the Au/In intermetallic in the molten KNO3... the idea was perhaps to encourage the bright electric blue scale that was present after casting to return. No effect. I had also treat heating the intermetallic to oxidize it; all I found was that an ugly, tenacious, black oxide forms about 50 degrees before the compound melts.

Anyway, I think this concludes my tinkering with the intermetallic. Everything they say about it is true - my test sample was cracking simply from holding it in tweezers. Plus the lack of attractive blue color = I'm done with Au/In.

2) I made an 18kt Au/Fe alloy (75% Au, 25% Fe). In some verrry old references (1901) this is called "blue gold" and I was hoping perhaps this was the proper material for a KNO3 dip.



After alloying this cools to a pleasant pale blue... of course this is an oxide, so the as-cast condition isn't very useful, merely interesting to note:


It polishes to an unremarkable light gold/red color:


After a KNO3 dip it turns a deep navy blue. In these pics, and in person, it sometimes looks nearby black; I wish I could make a larger sample, the small size and the polish make it hard to see the color clearly. The color envolved over ~10 seconds in the KNO3, presumably less time in the oxidizer would make a lighter shade.



The spots, presumably, are areas where I didn't clean the metal well, or where there was a pinhole defect, etc. Scrupulous cleaning was mentioned specifically for this method, so that is perhaps unsurprising.

 

[TristanC]

Use your powers for good, not evil. I will be watching you...

 

[JewelFreak]

Deb, interesting resume. I admire that you go for it when you research something. I'd never have read the resume, I'm sure. Same about the guy in Rome -- that you emailed him was super. It wouldn't have occurred to me to ask him what he does if I hadn't been able to read his website. Sometimes I'm embarrassed at the brains other people use & I don't!

Undercover, you make me wish I could remember anything from my high school chemistry. Look forward to your next try!

--- Laurie

 

[AGBF]

I tried two things tonight.

I'm done with Au/In.

I made an 18kt Au/Fe alloy (75% Au, 25% Fe).

So are you going to continue to work with the gold and iron (18kt Au/Fe alloy), Undercover? What are you planning to do next? You wrote that before you even posted here you tried making an alloy with iron and nickel as Muller did. Did you try one with copper like Kretchmer?

Deb/AGBF

 

[Undercover999]

I tried two things tonight.

I'm done with Au/In.

I made an 18kt Au/Fe alloy (75% Au, 25% Fe).

So are you going to continue to work with the gold and iron (18kt Au/Fe alloy), Undercover? What are you planning to do next? You wrote that before you even posted here you tried making an alloy with iron and nickel as Muller did. Did you try one with copper like Kretchmer?

Deb/AGBF

I don't have a formula for the Kretchmer alloy. The only one I know of with copper is the pale blue Friso alloy.

That said, I suspect strongly its an oxidized 18kt alloy with lots of iron like the others. I'll play with those compositions more, but I think the post-alloying process is more critical to the color than the 0.5% nickel vs 2.0% Cu.

 

[Starzin]

Good to see you're on to your next project 999

I had in my mind that a jeweller had done some work with blue gold and eventually tracked it down again to Hans Mevis http://www.meevis.com/jewelry-making-class-purple-gold-experiments.htm who has done quite a bit of experimentation with purple gold but I can not find anything about blue gold - he does however make a stunning blue titanium.

 

[partgypsy]

I am impressed with your persistence! It sounds like once you have a task on hand you like to get to the end of it, and blue gold is a tall order! My sense, if you like a strong blue color, even if you find a way to make and incorporate blue gold into the ring, it may not be what are looking for.

Would you consider it "cheating" to enamel a blue line onto a gold ring? After all, it was good enough for the Egyptians. And it would be an interesting skill to know how to enamel! I also think metal doped glass would be pretty as well.

 

[Starzin]

Don't know if you have considered PMC...Precious Metal Clay. It comes in .999 silver and 22K and 24K gold to which you can add Blue Gold Accents. The Blue Gold mix isn't stable enough for a full ring but different blues are available for adding to the ring once made with yellow gold. I don't know if the Blue Gold Accents can be applied to a gold ring not made with PMC gold.

Gold and silver metal clay is made up of particles of precious metal - pure silver or gold - held together with water and an organic binder. After a metal clay object has been fired with a torch or in a kiln, the water is eliminated and the binder is burned away. What's is left is the pure, precious metal - either fine silver (.999 silver, which is 99.9% silver vs. sterling, which is only 92.5% silver), or 22K gold.

Here are a couple of links:
Squidoo lens http://www.squidoo.com/metal-clay-brands
The PMC Guild gallery http://www.pmcguild.com/gallery/gold/gold.html
Blue Gold Accents http://www.jmiags.com/htm/accentBlueGold.htm

 

[Undercover999]

I've been lazy, I tried a few more things and took some video. I'll chop it up and post it when I have time.

I think I've learned, vis-a-vis my oxide experiments, is that my first alloys are contaminated somehow. I repeated it with fresh metals and it went much better, the blue is more noticable. Moreover I think I may have been heating too high - I'm following the patent but when I threw in a test sample it turned bright blue in a number of seconds before proceeding to black... I think it went through a blue phase while heating but the high heat produces only black.

tbd.

 

[distracts]

Would you consider it "cheating" to enamel a blue line onto a gold ring? After all, it was good enough for the Egyptians. And it would be an interesting skill to know how to enamel! I also think metal doped glass would be pretty as well.

Enameling was my first thought - he may want to make a slightly recessed area to contain the enamel, since it is a little raised. I think that would also protect it a little from chipping. Enameling is really easy, too. Even I, master of jewelry-making mistakes, did it right on my first try. I'm sure Undercover999, with his copious researching skills, would master it immediately. I'm not sure about durability though or the ability to re-do it if it chips or something.