Be Diffusion?

[minousbijoux]

So I asked an ebay seller about a sapphire they were listing. It said it was heat treated, I wanted to know whether there was any way to know if it had been Be diffused. Since this was the same seller who was listing everything as Namibian spessies (and selling a lot of them), I wanted to see what the answer would be. This is what they said:

" the gemologist tested on the LIBS and said that there were very small trace elements of Beryllium but not enough to state BE-Heat, so many Thai's BE-Heat their sapphires so there is always a high risk of small amounts of cross contamination when gems are heated."

My take? Be afraid, be very afraid ...

Your thoughts?

 

[LD]

This is, I'm afraid, correct. Apparently small amounts can be retained in the oven and then "infect" the next batch of gems. I think the seller is being very honest with you.

 

[minousbijoux]

Thanks - I was interpreting it as a cover my a** type of response. See how cynnical and mistrusting I've become?

 

[LD]

No, it's understandable. Unfortunately I came across this several years ago when I was trying to buy a purple sapphire. It put me off and I didn't get that stone but I wonder how many gems have trace BE lurking within that we're blissfully unaware of! I think it can occur naturally in small amounts as well (think - not sure).

 

[Michael_E]

My take? Be afraid, be very afraid ...

Your thoughts?

Afraid of what? The guy admitted that the stone was BE treated, (it either is or it isn't, there's no accepted threshold for beryllium that I've heard of). You know what it is, so you either buy it for what it is or you forget it.

You know that there are a lot of colors in BE treated stones which just aren't really available in synthetics. If a person wants a really stunning pink/orange padparadscha and doesn't want to mortgage their house, then this might be a good way to go. Now don't everyone go telling me that there are good pad's in synthetic, because there aren't, not like the colors in BE treated stones. I'm not sure if many of the forum members remember when the BE treated stones first came out. They were selling the stones which didn't treat well for very low prices because they were full of small blue spots, like a leopard. Well they've fixed that and now it's really hard to tell if that's a pig wearing lipstick or a real princess. Almost makes you want to fall in love with it doesn't it?

 

[LD]

Minous, the other thing is that I believe BE diffusion was "discovered" by this very process - something had been left in an oven, "infected" a batch of stones and hey ho, a new treatment was born!

 

[minousbijoux]

Aw shucks, now I have this image of a poor, miserable pig trying to avoid all mirrors...

I get your point, but why can't they just say its Be treated? No harm, no foul. Some do, some don't. Its the ones who call it "natural" without disclosers that get my goat (or should I say pig?)

 

[Michael_E]

I think it can occur naturally in small amounts as well (think - not sure).

Well, you're right LD. I've seen several references to this and it's true. Here's one little blurb from the GIA:

"Occurrence of beryllium in natural corundum and its implications
The recent discovery of naturally occurring beryllium in corundum means this material must be studied to avoid confusion with corundum that has been beryllium-diffused to alter its color."

Now we have to decide whether it's a pig or a princess and are left having to take the word of it's parents. The problem here is that the parents of the princess are pig farmers. I guess we should be worried?

 

[Lee Little]

My take? Be afraid, be very afraid ...

Your thoughts?

Afraid of what? The guy admitted that the stone was BE treated, (it either is or it isn't, there's no accepted threshold for beryllium that I've heard of). You know what it is, so you either buy it for what it is or you forget it.

You know that there are a lot of colors in BE treated stones which just aren't really available in synthetics. If a person wants a really stunning pink/orange padparadscha and doesn't want to mortgage their house, then this might be a good way to go. Now don't everyone go telling me that there are good pad's in synthetic, because there aren't, not like the colors in BE treated stones. I'm not sure if many of the forum members remember when the BE treated stones first came out. They were selling the stones which didn't treat well for very low prices because they were full of small blue spots, like a leopard. Well they've fixed that and now it's really hard to tell if that's a pig wearing lipstick or a real princess. Almost makes you want to fall in love with it doesn't it?

Hi Michael,
I do not believe the guy admitted it was BE treated, he simply stated the results of the test which do not indicate BE treatment. Trace amounts do not indicate treatment, the labs do have a threshold and that stone they indicated it was not intentionally treated which could mean it occurred naturally or it picked up a little from previous treatments being done with the same equipment. When they are intentionally treated there is no mistaking it for a trace amount.

Hi Loving Diamonds,
I talked to a retired gem cooker and he said that for many years sapphires were heated with chrysoberyl without the intent to BE treat the Sapphires and they were often perplexed as to how some yellow sapphire rough must have been in the rough they had just cooked yet nobody had noticed, however, they knew they had looked at it all beforehand and there was no yellow in there. When they finally figured out what was causing it they went out and bought all the Chrysoberyl the market had to offer. That buying was one major tip off for the guys that researched and figured out how BE treatment was being done because the guys cooking were not talking. Best regards, Lee

 

[mastercutgems]

I agree that many corundum look much better with a little extra Be but as always when you are looking at any particular color of corundum you will use the spectrometer and see what elements are there and if a particular element is needed to create that color in the mineral and it is not there but you have high concentrations of Be or exceedingly strong bands;you can more-than-likely ASSUME there is a Be concentration through the heat cycle.
Yes there is naturally occurring Be in heated and unheated corundum; but it is the amount of Be and also the LACK of particular elements that create the colors viewed in that particular gem mineral corundum that sets off red flags. You will always get some freaks of nature like ground radiation, natural heat, hydrothermal heating, etc. that will reek havoc on some lab tests but you will always be able to narrow it down to a more educated guess.

I hope that makes sense as that is how it was explained to me by the GIA and AGTA gurus many years ago. That is why I always test with the digital scanning spectrometer with B&W monitor as i can see things/ bands that I could never see with the traditional spectrometer.

I do agree I do not have any issues with bombarding a corundum with Be as long as they tell me it has been. I just do not like being told a gem is totally natural and other than natures little tricks it has been man enhanced.
I feel the guy selling this particular gem may be telling you all he knows or the lab people only know so much and naturally occurring Be is not uncommon. You will just want to look for the elements that make the corundum, yellow, green, blue, or red. If it is there well then you may just have basic heat.

Yes i do remember all those nasty blackish blue orbs that was once so evident in the old Be heating; wow that was a dead give-away

Most respectfully;

Dana M. Reynolds, csmg

 

[minousbijoux]

Hi Dana:

I'm not sure I understand all the technical aspects of your response, but I just wanted to say welcome back and ask after your Dad. I hope everything went well and you both have a little more worry free time now.

Take good care,

Minou

 

[Arkteia]

I think it can occur naturally in small amounts as well (think - not sure).

Well, you're right LD. I've seen several references to this and it's true. Here's one little blurb from the GIA:

"Occurrence of beryllium in natural corundum and its implications
The recent discovery of naturally occurring beryllium in corundum means this material must be studied to avoid confusion with corundum that has been beryllium-diffused to alter its color."

Now we have to decide whether it's a pig or a princess and are left having to take the word of it's parents. The problem here is that the parents of the princess are pig farmers. I guess we should be worried?

It reminds me of "accidental" discovery of penicillin by Fleming, do you remember how he left agar-agar with bacterias in his lab for a while and mold grew in one of the Pietri dishes. He noticed rounds around the mold - the bacteria did not grow there! And since the mold had name "Penicillium aspergillus", penicillin was named after it! Only in case of penicillin, the results were more positive - billions of people were saved, whild Be-treatment has more negative results since it drives the price of the stone down. Several dollars per carat is not the price of a sapphire, it is just some alloy...

 

[morecarats]

I think it can occur naturally in small amounts as well (think - not sure).

... Only in case of penicillin, the results were more positive - billions of people were saved, whild Be-treatment has more negative results since it drives the price of the stone down. Several dollars per carat is not the price of a sapphire, it is just some alloy...

Beryllium diffusion does not drive down the price of sapphire. On the contrary, the stones subject to beryllium treatment have essentially no market value until treated. Remember that this is a business, and beryllium diffusion of sapphire is expensive, time consuming and dangerous (beryllium is one of the most toxic chemicals known).

 

[LD]

I think it can occur naturally in small amounts as well (think - not sure).

... Only in case of penicillin, the results were more positive - billions of people were saved, whild Be-treatment has more negative results since it drives the price of the stone down. Several dollars per carat is not the price of a sapphire, it is just some alloy...

Beryllium diffusion does not drive down the price of sapphire. On the contrary, the stones subject to beryllium treatment have essentially no market value until treated. Remember that this is a business, and beryllium diffusion of sapphire is expensive, time consuming and dangerous (beryllium is one of the most toxic chemicals known).

I understand what you're saying BUT it in terms of the finished product, it has a lower price. These sapphires can be found littering Ebay for very little. Online vendors sell them cheaply as do television shopping channels. A sapphire that is heated only OR untreated completely if it has good clarity, cut etc., will always be more expensive and less in abundance. True gem/jewellery collectors tend to shy away from BE diffused gems.

 

[Lady_Disdain]

Beryllium diffusion does not drive down the price of sapphire. On the contrary, the stones subject to beryllium treatment have essentially no market value until treated. Remember that this is a business, and beryllium diffusion of sapphire is expensive, time consuming and dangerous (beryllium is one of the most toxic chemicals known).

I understand what you're saying BUT it in terms of the finished product, it has a lower price. These sapphires can be found littering Ebay for very little. Online vendors sell them cheaply as do television shopping channels. A sapphire that is heated only OR untreated completely if it has good clarity, cut etc., will always be more expensive and less in abundance. True gem/jewellery collectors tend to shy away from BE diffused gems.

Personally, I think this is a good think as it opens up the possibility of those who aren't collectors or whodon't have the budget to have a lovely sapphire ring. The collectors can still buy the unheated stones (which have kept their value). I think it is good that more people have access to nice things.

The problem, in my opinion, only comes from unscrupulous people selling BE sapphires or synthetics as untreated or heat only. That, however, is not to be blamed on the existance of the treatments, but rather on lack of scruples.

Let's use pearls as another example. Until cultured pearls became common, only very very few people could have a nice pearl necklace. Today, we have a range of pearls with something for every pocket, from cheap strand to multi thousand dollars cultured pearls to stratospherically priced all natural pearls. Yes, there are now cheaper pearls, but the top of the line stuff is still very highly priced. How is that bad?

 

[LD]

Beryllium diffusion does not drive down the price of sapphire. On the contrary, the stones subject to beryllium treatment have essentially no market value until treated. Remember that this is a business, and beryllium diffusion of sapphire is expensive, time consuming and dangerous (beryllium is one of the most toxic chemicals known).

I understand what you're saying BUT it in terms of the finished product, it has a lower price. These sapphires can be found littering Ebay for very little. Online vendors sell them cheaply as do television shopping channels. A sapphire that is heated only OR untreated completely if it has good clarity, cut etc., will always be more expensive and less in abundance. True gem/jewellery collectors tend to shy away from BE diffused gems.

Personally, I think this is a good think as it opens up the possibility of those who aren't collectors or whodon't have the budget to have a lovely sapphire ring. The collectors can still buy the unheated stones (which have kept their value). I think it is good that more people have access to nice things.

Let's use pearls as another example. Until cultured pearls became common, only very very few people could have a nice pearl necklace. Today, we have a range of pearls with something for every pocket, from cheap strand to multi thousand dollars cultured pearls to stratospherically priced all natural pearls. Yes, there are now cheaper pearls, but the top of the line stuff is still very highly priced. How is that bad?

I don't disagree on one proviso - the treatment is disclosed! Many people don't care or even know about BE diffusion so it opens up the possibility for them to own a very pretty cheaper item of jewellery (or loose stone) but disclosure (whether they're interested in it or not) should be the key.

 

[Lady_Disdain]

LD - I agree completely! In fact, after I posted, I went back and added that point. I think I took a little too long though and we cross posted.

 

[minousbijoux]

...which gets back to my original question - I was asking was for the seller to disclose treatment. When I asked, I felt like the answer was not a direct response. Do you know whether these have been treated? Answer: there are traces of beryllium. Is this the seller's way of saying yes (in which case they could just say yes and disclose) or no (in which case they could say I buy stones that are heat treated only, however, they can be cross contaminated by others in the heating process so if you have them tested you will find there are trace amounts of beryllium but not as much as there would be had they been treated). Instead, me and folks like me who care, are left in a quandary. I probably wouldn't even mind buying a be treated stone if I knew that was what I was getting - and I definitely would expect to pay a whole lot less for it.

 

[Lee Little]

...which gets back to my original question - I was asking was for the seller to disclose treatment. When I asked, I felt like the answer was not a direct response. Do you know whether these have been treated? Answer: there are traces of beryllium. Is this the seller's way of saying yes (in which case they could just say yes and disclose) or no (in which case they could say I buy stones that are heat treated only, however, they can be cross contaminated by others in the heating process so if you have them tested you will find there are trace amounts of beryllium but not as much as there would be had they been treated). Instead, me and folks like me who care, are left in a quandary. I probably wouldn't even mind buying a be treated stone if I knew that was what I was getting - and I definitely would expect to pay a whole lot less for it.

The seller is saying no, it is not BE treated. It appears that his honesty in telling you there are traces has left you and at least one other poster thinking the opposite. Many heated but not BE treated stones will show traces, that is acceptable as heat only. When they are treated the amount is much higher than a trace. Best regards, Lee

 

[Michael_E]

The seller is saying no, it is not BE treated. It appears that his honesty in telling you there are traces has left you and at least one other poster thinking the opposite. Many heated but not BE treated stones will show traces, that is acceptable as heat only. When they are treated the amount is much higher than a trace. Best regards, Lee

I disagree. Without a quantitative analysis there is just now way of knowing what a "trace" means. Accepting someone's word that there is only a trace of any added elements in a stone is the same as accepting whatever they wish to tell you in order to get you to buy a stone. How do you know that it's really just a trace and what exactly is the dividing line between a trace and a significant amount? From what I've read these questions are still under study by the major gem labs and someone claiming a "trace" of beryllium enhancement should have some proof to back up their claims. In answer to minousbijoux's question, the answer is that no one knows right now, how to tell the difference between a trace of beryllium that may have occurred naturally and one which was added to the stone during treatment. Since this question can't be answered, you are taking something of a risk by buying any sapphire which has any beryllium in it...unless the price is low enough to remove your concern.

There are two buying positions in natural gems. One is concerned with ANY sort of enhancement and they will pay whatever is required to assure themselves that their gem is unenhanced. The other buyer is less concerned and is buying based on beauty and price point. If you are buying in the lower price ranges, then you really can't be too concerned about treatments, because that's the only way that many of these stones ended up at the lower price points. A nice looking 2+ carat sapphire at $500 or $1000, well that baby has most likely been treated with more than heat. Do you care? If so, then up your budget by 10 times and avoid anything with any "trace" of beryllium until the amount that's acceptable can be determined by a quality lab. This discussion really revolves around price and if you have large concerns or are buying top dollar goods, I would get some more definitive information about what actually constitutes a "trace" of beryllium in a gem than the sellers assurance that it's only a "trace". This has nothing to do with a sellers honesty, since they may believe that what they are saying is the truth, but the "truth" in this situation is not available yet.

 

[Lee Little]

Hi Michael,
I understand that all the figuring is not done yet to determine an exact line between "trace" and "treatment" but the seller said " very small trace elements " so we are talking about not just "trace" but "very small trace". The big labs will likely be many years before they determine where the line really is and very likely will not conclude anything for decades or perhaps never will. When I have had stones checked with LIBS the technician always had a clear opinion, when it was a small trace he felt it was not intentional and was untreated and when it was really treated it was obvious. Of course these are just a lab technicians opinions, not proven science. Your point is well taken that if it is being claimed to be a trace then there should be some documentation to back this up. If this dealer had a lab check the stone then perhaps there is a report we have not seen yet.
If one is spending huge money then I agree, any trace may be unacceptable, however, it has been determined that natural stones can contain a "trace" and accidentally contaminated stones can also contain a "trace" so I do not see much concern about a "very small trace", unless we are talking about big money or an absolute purist that will take no chances. You are correct again that the price is a major determining factor in the judgment process. Best regards, Lee

 

[Michael_E]

When I have had stones checked with LIBS the technician always had a clear opinion, when it was a small trace he felt it was not intentional and was untreated and when it was really treated it was obvious. Of course these are just a lab technicians opinions, not proven science.

That's interesting Lee. I have a high regard for the opinions of technicians, since they tend to be closer to the way that their testing machines work than anyone else. If they notice a distinct change from a small amount of enhancing material to something which is obviously enhanced, then this could probably be a basis of the difference between a natural, or inadvertent exposure to, beryllium. I've never seen a report from a LIBS process, but having that report along with some knowledge about what is a lot and what is a little beryllium in a stone would solve that problem. Now everyone just has to agree on the limits of what is a "little" and what is a "lot". I'll leave it to you to get everyone to agree.

 

[Largosmom]

I started to post earlier, but is it possible we are dealing with a cultural or language difference here more than a technical one?

Some cultures tend to question/answer indirectly rather than directly, particularly if the answer may be perceived as negative. Thus, a question about Be treatment may not draw a direct answer.

I think you should ask again, carefully but clearly to draw understanding, not to confront.

For example...

"I want to understand clearly...did you say that the stone is NOT Be treated, but it does have a trace of Be from nature or from the heating equipment used on different stones?"

You may also wish to say that you like the color of the stone, but you prefer your stone to be NOT treated. Compliment with one statement but state your preference with the other.

Laura

 

[LD]

Lee - thank you for confirming what I'd heard. I agree that if there is trace evidence of BE (and it's similar or not much more to that which could occur naturally) my instinct would be to say it was untreated other than heated. I appreciate this isn't a documented or agreed measurement but it seems to be common sense. I also believe that the people who deal with machines/stones each and every day are properly far more qualified to comment so, on that basis, I would consider the stone in question to be heated only.

Largos - I think the vendor has actually given very precise and accurate information. As you can see from Michael and Lee's replies, there is no agreed measurement to determine whether trace evidence of BE constitutes treatment or not.

 

[Lee Little]

Hi minousbijoux,
I would ask the seller if you can see a copy of the LIBS test report. My main curiosity would be whether or not there really was such a test. best regards, Lee

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

So I asked an ebay seller about a sapphire they were listing. It said it was heat treated, I wanted to know whether there was any way to know if it had been Be diffused. Since this was the same seller who was listing everything as Namibian spessies (and selling a lot of them), I wanted to see what the answer would be. This is what they said:

" the gemologist tested on the LIBS and said that there were very small trace elements of Beryllium but not enough to state BE-Heat, so many Thai's BE-Heat their sapphires so there is always a high risk of small amounts of cross contamination when gems are heated."

My take? Be afraid, be very afraid ...

Your thoughts?

If I had a vendor who had something tested by LIBS and a report issued and it said heat treated only, most vendors would stop there.
Did you get such a report?

This seller went much further, they disclosed to you the details of the report not just the opinion of the lab which is that it wasn't BE heated.

You fault them for disclosing this EXTRA information to you?

 

[chrono]

At this point, it comes down to your level of personal comfort. Will knowing that a trace (and who knows how much this trace amount really is) of beryllium is in your sapphire bother you in the long run? If the price is very low, I’ll probably let it go but not on something higher priced.

 

[minousbijoux]

Chrono: I think that's exactly the dilemna - how much am I willing to pay. How much do I trust?

Others: I did not ask to see the report as I was losing interest at that point, and I just don't have the same confidence in ebay sellers as I do the lapidaries who are frequented by the majority of us PSers. However, I will next time and see if they are willing to share the report. I also bought three stones from them and I'm waiting for them to arrive (gotta admit I'm a little intimidated by this seller whose responses to individuals leaving negative or neutral feedback is absolutely angry and shredding). Hopefully, they'll be lovely and I'll regret having doubted them...

-Minou

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Chrono: I think that's exactly the dilemna - how much am I willing to pay. How much do I trust?

Others: I did not ask to see the report as I was losing interest at that point, and I just don't have the same confidence in ebay sellers as I do the lapidaries who are frequented by the majority of us PSers. However, I will next time and see if they are willing to share the report. I also bought three stones from them and I'm waiting for them to arrive (gotta admit I'm a little intimidated by this seller whose responses to individuals leaving negative or neutral feedback is absolutely angry and shredding). Hopefully, they'll be lovely and I'll regret having doubted them...

-Minou

We are interested, lets see how the ones you actually bought turn out.