Balancing constraints - stone selection

[MSG]

Hello All,

May I please ask for some advice in terms of diamond selection for an engagement ring, please?

Shape: Round

Generally, I value the Cs in the following order looking for best mixture / balance between them to get a good option.

1. Clarity: Eye-clean (SI1 or VS2 preferably)
2. Cut: as good as possible within the given price tag – that is important to me
3. Color: H-G
4. Carat: ?

Budget <2000 USD

I can see James Allen has a good 25% discount (till EoD) for setting so tried to check that one.

I already had a long chat with JA but it was not very useful, they advised more on a base criteria and not with some expert recommendation / how to best balance – so I am to even list them and continue looking for my own.

However, I just though some of you would be so kind and also advise / provide any recommendation https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...aratTo=0.74&Polish=EX&Symmetry=EX&Lab=GIA,AGS

Or any other – all helpful will be greatly appreciated (JA is not a must, but looks to be a good one).

Thank you very much.

 

[Matilda]

Does your budget include setting? And what is the minimum carat weight you would want?

 

[chanieish]

Hi and welcome to PS! You will soon see that we are cut fans over here. Reason being an ideal cut produce a sparklier diamond, that is able to hide some color and some imperfections allowing you to go down to VS2/SI1 and H/I/J/K in color. So I'd advice moving cut to the top, then maxing out your color/carat/clarity as able. I think that an H will be white enough, especially with an amazing cut. Do you know if your intended has seen different diamond colors before and is color-sensitive/wants a colorless diamond?

I'll leave it to the experts to help guide you with the stone! Good luck and can't wait to see what you choose.

 

[tyty333]

This is the only one I could find at JA but...you would need to make sure the Strong Blue Fluor isnt affecting the stone and that the twinning wisps
are just the ones you see on the edge (3-5 oclock) and that they are not throughout the stone. Also ask if its eye-clean (just to be sure). These
angles are not playing together as nicely as we like but I'm going to throw it out there.
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...d-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-5732958

Which setting are you looking at? What is the budget for your setting. Helps to know when we look at other vendors.

The other option is to look at Super Ideals like this at WF. They have a simple and nice trade up policy. Settings will most likely cost more though
(thats why we need your setting budget).
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3970261.htm

 

[ac117]

This should be eye clean at this size: https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...f-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-5499207

ETA: the one tyty suggested is very nice, too - I put a minimum of .65 for my search

 

[Snowdrop13]

I did a search using the tool under “resources” above, using a budget of $2000 for the stone,

This is the biggest in house superideal I could see,

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3839999.htm

And this is the biggest carat weight, diamond has good numbers though there are no images,

https://diamonddealfinder.com/enquiry.php?id_field=460995

 

[Matilda]

You could also contact idjewelry which has cheaper prices and price matches. They could source a stone for you. Although the super ideals are easier to find from whiteflash and brian Gavin. As said above they will hide any trace of tint well so you could go lower on colour and increase size.

 

[MSG]

Well, I am not sure how much my lady is color sensitive; however, I know she prefers yellow gold so that is the setting I am looking for (simple, solitaire). I do not think she is well oriented / has a good experience in diamonds selection.


I aimed to spend on the ring and diamond around $2000 (I can still absorb some increase if worth it), the setting from JA are with good discount till end of today so that would be an additional advantage / makes the purchase easier (there seem to be some nice offers ~200-300 USD), but I believe I could also go with diamon only and arrange setting later on (as said indeeded WhiteFlash has quite expensive ones) so I can go with better stone for now.

Regarding carat - i do not have any tresholds in mind, but best we get having the other parameters good enough.


The first one from WhiteFlash (https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3970261.htm) looks very nice and seems to have great parameters, my only concern may be I color? (I am not sure how valid / worth to be afraid it is within such perfect cut)

Generally, to what letter within the color scale do you believe I can go (having the excellent cuts) to not lose too much in its overall perception (lower grades can assure quite good savings for the other parameters).


Also, perhaps can go with SI1 instead of VS2?


The next one from WhiteFlash (https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3970261.htm) seems to be marked as Expert Selection. I am not very familiar with their scale but what I learned it is one grade below their internal A CUT ABOVE (that the previous one matched). If you say it is still OK for the purpose, it may be a good bargain


Regarding the two from JAa – the one advised by @ac117 (https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...f-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-5499207) – it seems to have few inclusions on the table, but perhaps still eye-clean and not worth to be worry?


And as per @tyty333 (https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...d-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-5732958) shall I be concerned because of its angles and rather look for the ones with more proportional ones then?

Following, which from these or any others (from JA or somewhere else) worth attention (or more - being best choice / recommendation or preferred over?)


Regarding DDF one - I am little bit afraid to go without image on web page... the more it is to be a x-mass gift so no much time for return if needed = )

 

[KKJohnson]

This one leaves some $ for the setting and it is actually got a nice spread for the ct weight, it is an eye but has med flou so that should work in its favor in keeping the stone look whiter.

https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...i-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-6100991

This one is a bit on the higher end leaving less for the setting and it is smaller mm wise, it is a VS so the inclusions shouldn't be an issue
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...g-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-4827981

This one is nice, leaves some $ for the setting and isnt bad for size; inclusions appear to be white which is perfect if you have them
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...f-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-5220048

 

[Miss Marple]

I'll leave comments on specific stones to the experts. However, if you have an xmas deadline, you are probably better off going to a vendor with diamonds in house, such as WhiteFlash. Many vendors, such as James Allen, are drop shippers and the physical stone is located overseas. It takes time for the stone to be shipped, etc.

ID Jewelery is also an excellent choice. I've made a couple of purchases with them and they do a great job selecting diamonds with excellent performance on a budget. Make sure to ask for PS quality stones.

With respect to settings, all of the jewelers have access to Stuller settings, which are budget friendly. I spoke to one jeweler who also offered a very inexpensive solitaire made by Ritani (I think). It was in the US$350 range for 14k gold. Most of the jewelers recommended probably also have access to this setting -- even if not listed on their website. Your best bet is to talk to these vendors directly.

Good luck with your search.

 

[Snowdrop13]

Well, I am not sure how much my lady is color sensitive; however, I know she prefers yellow gold so that is the setting I am looking for (simple, solitaire). I do not think she is well oriented / has a good experience in diamonds selection.


I aimed to spend on the ring and diamond around $2000 (I can still absorb some increase if worth it), the setting from JA are with good discount till end of today so that would be an additional advantage / makes the purchase easier (there seem to be some nice offers ~200-300 USD), but I believe I could also go with diamon only and arrange setting later on (as said indeeded WhiteFlash has quite expensive ones) so I can go with better stone for now.

Regarding carat - i do not have any tresholds in mind, but best we get having the other parameters good enough.


The first one from WhiteFlash (https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3970261.htm) looks very nice and seems to have great parameters, my only concern may be I color? (I am not sure how valid / worth to be afraid it is within such perfect cut)

Generally, to what letter within the color scale do you believe I can go (having the excellent cuts) to not lose too much in its overall perception (lower grades can assure quite good savings for the other parameters).


Also, perhaps can go with SI1 instead of VS2?


The next one from WhiteFlash (https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3970261.htm) seems to be marked as Expert Selection. I am not very familiar with their scale but what I learned it is one grade below their internal A CUT ABOVE (that the previous one matched). If you say it is still OK for the purpose, it may be a good bargain


Regarding the two from JAa – the one advised by @ac117 (https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...f-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-5499207) – it seems to have few inclusions on the table, but perhaps still eye-clean and not worth to be worry?


And as per @tyty333 (https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...d-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-5732958) shall I be concerned because of its angles and rather look for the ones with more proportional ones then?

Following, which from these or any others (from JA or somewhere else) worth attention (or more - being best choice / recommendation or preferred over?)


Regarding DDF one - I am little bit afraid to go without image on web page... the more it is to be a x-mass gift so no much time for return if needed = )

Oops, my bad, apologies, I was looking for you very quickly and it escaped my notice that Whiteflash stone was not an ACA. The ‘I’ coloured one posted should be lovely, there are lots of people on here very happy with their ACAs in that colour.

 

[tyty333]

I quite like this one that kkJohnson posted. Its a little lower in the crown but still a good combo with the pavilion. What we usually say about "I"
colored stones is that from the top it will pretty much look white but you might see a slight tint from the side. At this size, I dont think the side
view will be much of an issue.
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...i-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-6100991

That stone along with one of the yellow gold settings should be a lovely combination.
https://www.jamesallen.com/engagement-rings/solitaire/?MetalType=y14&MaxPrice=532&OrderBy=Price asc

You can look at this page for examples of "I" colored stones in yellow gold. This just gives you a relative idea since you have to take into
account lighting and PC screens, etc.
https://www.jamesallen.com/diamond-...gs=12&MetalType=y&MinPrice=1000&MaxPrice=2999

 

[AV_]

Noticing 'Strong' fluorescence on the D/SI - something to know.

I am choosing between the D & the ACA, and the letter is winning.

 

[MSG]

1.
Ok, I see - and if "I" would be good enough, what do you think about J (assuming ACA and yellow ring setting).

If that would be still acceptable the WhiteFlash webpage returns quite a few well priced stones in the results – perhaps something worth to select / consider from that pool then? Is it?


2.
If not, the first reasonable choice from them would be (https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3970261.htm(little bit above the budget, but perhaps worth it?) or something else (I understand I should eliminate this Expert Selection advised https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3839999.htm, @Snowdrop13?)


3.
From JA – really hard to determine between these given, but indeed the first one seems to have some good advantages being also well priced, perhaps I shall arrange also some ASET or Idealscope just to ensure all is OK?


4.
Regarding settings on JA site – there are either white or yellow sockets, which option is better choice for not truly colorless diamonds we discuss?

 

[AV_]

.
I would rather have an ACA in any grade, but especially I or J. Considering the D because it is also a good cut & I would enjoy the fluorescence (for a nice example thereof, see WWW).
-
'J' ACA sounds good. The larger the diamond, the more obvious its colour. I would be obviously colourless in this size. Further, depends on what you want to see & mind.
-
Would prefer a white metal head for any of these diamonds.

2c

 

[LightBright]

For me, it’s between the G SI1 Expert Selection (Snowdrop13), the D with Fluor from James Allen (Tyty) and the I ACA.

I like the Expert Selection because the G is a higher color than the I ACA, but it’s got Superideal proportions. I would call Whiteflash and ask why it’s an Expert Selection and not an ACA. Also ask if this stone falls under their extremely generous upgrade policy. Honestly, this stone represents to me the better of all options for color, size, value (price discount due to SI1 and Expert Selection), upgrade ability and customer service and speed of service as well as setting selection now and in future.

D with Flour has a beautiful color and I happen to love Fluor. However, the presence of Fluor devalues the stone on the market if you ever want to resell. Also this stone is not a superideal. IMO, superideal represents a tangible worthwhile benefit that supersedes pretty much all the other Cs.

Does your intended have color sensitivity? I color ACA may be quite warm, but the ACA Superideal cut will mask the color. I like that ACA diamond because of it’s beautiful small table size, which in many cases increases fire. You need to be sure your intended doesn’t notice the tint on that stone. I bought an “I” once and couldn’t get used to the warmth. (I also noticed warmth in my G, for what it’s worth, and ended up with an E.) However in an ACA, color might not be noticeable at all. My superideal CBI is cut so well that I’m pretty sure it would be stunning in any color. That ACA and likely that Expert Selection Superideal will be stunning too.

Last, so you can stay in or close to budget, I would put the diamond in a low cost eight prong setting in white gold. Eight prong makes the stone look slightly bigger, IMO. I’m pretty sure Whiteflash has “temporary” settings, as does James Allen. Stuller has affordable white gold settings. I would increase your budget to include a less expensive ($350) setting rather than compromise and get a smaller stone and more expensive setting within your budget. Compromise on the setting not the stone.

 

[sledge]

This is the biggest in house superideal I could see,

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3839999.htm

I like the Expert Selection because the G is a higher color than the I ACA, but it’s got Superideal proportions. I would call Whiteflash and ask why it’s an Expert Selection and not an ACA. Also ask if this stone falls under their extremely generous upgrade policy. Honestly, this stone represents to me the better of all options for color, size, value (price discount due to SI1 and Expert Selection), upgrade ability and customer service and speed of service as well as setting selection now and in future.

The G Expert Select would also be my choice of the ones listed. I believe it missed ACA due to small rips in most clefts of the hearts. Still, the stone is a solid performer.

And yes -- ACA, Expert Select (ES) and Premium Select (PS) stones all share the same generous upgrade policy.

https://www.whiteflash.com/confidence/lifetime-trade-up-guarantee/

I would ask them to pull and ensure the clouds are a non issue. Sometimes on a stone where clouds are the grade setting inclusion and you have the additional clouds not shown in the cert notes section it can be a problem. Doesn't mean it is but it's worth an ask.

Assuming all checks out I think it's a no brainer as it seems to hit the required compromises perfectly. Plus being a Christmas gift and needing things to be executed properly I'd rather entrust WF to make it happen using an in-house stone.

 

[tyty333]

1.
Ok, I see - and if "I" would be good enough, what do you think about J (assuming ACA and yellow ring setting).
I have a small Super Ideal ( .46) that is a J. It faces up very white to me but I am not color sensitive.
I think at this size a super ideal J would be fine (unless color sensitive).

If that would be still acceptable the WhiteFlash webpage returns quite a few well priced stones in the results – perhaps something worth to select / consider from that pool then? Is it?


2.
If not, the first reasonable choice from them would be (https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3970261.htm(little bit above the budget, but perhaps worth it?) or something else (I understand I should eliminate this Expert Selection advised https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3839999.htm, @Snowdrop13?)
Why are you eliminating the Expert Selection? They can be a good value and just miss the ACA ranking. Plus its a G so you dont
have to stress about color. You can call and ask why it didnt make the ACA line. This will most likely be better cut than any of the JA stones.


3.
From JA – really hard to determine between these given, but indeed the first one seems to have some good advantages being also well priced, perhaps I shall arrange also some ASET or Idealscope just to ensure all is OK? Yes, an ASET or idealscope would be in order.

4.
Regarding settings on JA site – there are either white or yellow sockets, which option is better choice for not truly colorless diamonds we discuss?
Most people still go with white prongs. Look at that page I linked you to yellow gold settings. Look for stones approximately the
size you are looking at in the color you are looking at. Do the white prong settings or do the yellow prong settings appeal to you?
Couldnt find to many with yellow gold prongs. This is an I but it is not GIA/AGS so most
likely lower in color.
https://www.jamesallen.com/diamond-.../0.74-carat-solitaire-engagement-ring-1825470

/

 

[MSG]

Thanks for comments. Following, I have checked that one from WF https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3839999.htm?source=pricescope, here is the response:

„This diamond has great edge to edge light return, and wonderful proportions. However it does not meet our ACA requirements for optical symmetry and hearts & arrows patterning.”

“You will see that in the hearts image, some of the hearts have clefts.”

“The inclusions also have absolutely no impact on transparency, the diamond is not cloudy.”



For JA (https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...i-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-6100991) I have requested ASET / Idealscope images – they are checking whether can satisfy this request and are to get back shortly. Same for the second one the SI1/D (https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...d-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-5732958) so will share accordingly.



Regarding WF - it seems ACA I (https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3970261.htm) still on the table, but as per the above comments, perhaps worth to consider J ACAs,

e.g.:

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3981508.htm?source=pricescope

or

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4027048.htm

or better not cross I if that is ~200 USD difference?



As always, happy to see your invaluable comments and advise. Thanks.

 

[sledge]

Thanks for comments. Following, I have checked that one from WF https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3839999.htm?source=pricescope, here is the response:

„This diamond has great edge to edge light return, and wonderful proportions. However it does not meet our ACA requirements for optical symmetry and hearts & arrows patterning.”

“You will see that in the hearts image, some of the hearts have clefts.”

“The inclusions also have absolutely no impact on transparency, the diamond is not cloudy.”

Pretty much spot on to what I was saying earlier. Seems like the clear winner to me. You have to keep in mind that ACA criteria is very stringent. In this particular case, it was a very narrow miss.

This article explains more on the matter:
https://www.whiteflash.com/about-di...ow-are-hearts-arrows-diamonds-graded-1578.htm

And some pictures to help you understand the difference. First the G stone in question showing the unedited image and then an edited image to show you why it failed. Then an image of the hearts image of the J stone so you can see how an ACA hearts image will look in comparison.

Unedited Hearts Image of G Expert Select Stone:


Edited Version of Same G Expert Select Stone (to show imperfections for rejection):


Unedited Version of J ACA Stone (listed below):

For JA (https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...i-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-6100991) I have requested ASET / Idealscope images – they are checking whether can satisfy this request and are to get back shortly.

57 table, 60.6 depth, 33 crown, 40.8 pavilion & 75 LGF

This is a no for me. While the steeper 40.8 pavilion is complimentary to the very shallow 33 crown, it's just too shallow IMO. Even if the stone comes back as a great cut, the personality of the stone will favor more white light with the shallow crown. On a positive note, I do like the 75 LGF as that will provide fatter arrows and provide bigger & bolder flashes of light return.

However, the G Expert Select will be a more firey stone, has better color and you don't have to worry about the effects of fluor. Not to mention we know the G Expert Select is a finely cut stone with full images to prove it. At best, JA will provide you an idealscope (as that's all they offer on round stones -- for whatever reason ASET's are for fancy shapes only). I just see no monetary or competitive advantage to buy this particular JA stone.

Same for the second one the SI1/D (https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...d-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-5732958) so will share accordingly.

56 table, 61.2 depth, 34.5 crown, 40.6 pavilion & 80 LGF

Proportions are much better on this stone than the prior JA stone. The pavilion is a little shallow and we'd like to see closer to a 40.7 or 40.8 to better compliment the 34.5 crown angle but there are cases where this combo works. I like the table size as smaller tables equals more fire (as the smaller the table, the larger the upper facets where rainbow, aka fire, light is reflected). The 80 LGF will have more skinny arrows, perform better in bright lighting and have a more splintery effect.

I really like the D color, but dislike the fact it has strong fluor on such a high color. FYI, I'm not against fluor as I bought my fiancee an H stone with medium fluor; however, I don't like particularly like high color stones with such strong levels personally. I think many people share the same opinion, although at the end of the day it is a preference.

Lastly, the outside edges of the stone look hazy to me in the magnified view. This may or may not be an issue in a non-magnified view.

Again I keep going back to the G Expert Select, and asking what advantage you have with this stone over it. The color is the only thing. However, if you could get a full onslaught of images (ASET, idealscope and H&A images) then you'd see the G stone is better cut. Again, JA will provide an idealscope image only which isn't exactly apples to apples comparison. Most JA True Hearts stones is about the quality of WF's Expert & Premium Select line. This particularly stone isn't even a TH collection.

Regarding WF - it seems ACA I (https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3970261.htm) still on the table, but as per the above comments, perhaps worth to consider J ACAs,

e.g.:

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3981508.htm?source=pricescope

or

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4027048.htm

or better not cross I if that is ~200 USD difference?

As always, happy to see your invaluable comments and advise. Thanks.

First off, here's you a link that compares these stones in an easier to read format. I also threw the G Expert Select in there for fun.

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/compare.aspx?idnos=4027048,3981508,3970261,3839999

I personally think all are good choices. Because of my fiancee being so color sensitive (that I learned AFTER the fact) I would personally lean towards the best color.

That said, you could have WF pull all these stones and report back to you on their color. As you may or may not realize, the further down the color scale you go the more diversity there is in each color. Hence terms like "high or low J" start to develop meaning the stone is technically graded a J but may be almost an I, or almost a K. The lower you go in color, the more disparity there is in that scale.

While each stone has different weights, if you look closely at the dimensions you will notice there is little difference in actual length & width dimensions (which define a diameter, as we are talking round diamonds). In fact, so insignificant I doubt your eyes would ever be able to discern a difference, especially if the stones were never placed side by side. I'd be asking if a particular stone stood out in terms of performance and color to help you narrow the choices.

 

[MSG]

Thanks for the great feedback! Let me please update with the HCA analysis result for all the discussed, respectively JA SI/D and WF in the comparison page order. All below 2 points, but especially two JA SI/D and WF SI/J seems to differ in a positive way - s it something that can help with the final selection, any other thoughts guys please?







AGS-104101293054




AGS-104098959038




AGS-104098494017




AGS-104101293054

 

[sledge]

Thanks for the great feedback! Let me please update with the HCA analysis result for all the discussed, respectively JA SI/D and WF in the comparison page order. All below 2 points, but especially two JA SI/D and WF SI/J seems to differ in a positive way - s it something that can help with the final selection, any other thoughts guys please?







AGS-104101293054




AGS-104098959038




AGS-104098494017




AGS-104101293054

You're welcome. Glad I could help.

In regards to the HCA, it's for GIA stones only as it uses less sophisticated methods to approximate light performance based on limited criteria we input from the GIA certificate. The values on the report we input are all averaged and rounded by GIA in case you weren't aware.

The short version is it's a great tool to give an approximation but the AGS certifications that accompany the ACA and ES stones utilizes a much more sophisticated and detailed 3D scan of each specific diamond to assign a cut grade (in this case, the best, Ideal 0) and create a computer generated ASET from the scanned model data that you can find printed on the bottom of the AGS cert.

Vendors like WF and similar then take actual ASET images as well which is what you see on their webpage.

All this data is more sophisticated, more accurate and supersedes any approximated HCA results you get.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[Matilda]

Personally I would go for the last one(HCA 1.6), then the second last one (HCA1.5). The HCA scores alone are not making this choice however. Whiteflash upgrade policy is a bonus. I also like the colour grades more.

BUT they are both approximately $200 more expensive. So if you want to save that then the other ones are also good. And as has been said before, with such good cuts and small carat size J should not be obvious. I think by this point it is a question of if you would feel happy spending the extra $200 and not regret it.

Anyway you go I look forward to seeing the final ring!!