Avoid SI1-2 Clarity Diamonds with clouds as main flaws??

[aquanaut]

Is this statement true?

I am looking at a diamond which a reputable seller claims to be "eye clean" and can see on the AGS lab report that the main flaws are clouds. I was under the impression that clouds are virtually invisible with the naked eye?

Can anyone clarify on this topic?

 

[stone-cold11]

Depends. Nothing is set in stone for clarity grade and it's relation to eye-cleanliness.

 

[aquanaut]

I realize there are no "hard rules" when it comes to diamonds.

Let me rephrase: "Should one generally avoid si1-2 diamonds with clouds as main inclusions?"

What type of effect do extensive clouds cause? It is about seeing inclusions or hindering brilliance/ sparkle?

I should also note that in the specific diamond that I am looking at (which is around 2.5cts) all of the clouds are around the perimeter near the girdle and not on the table.

Thanks so much for helping a noob learn!!

 

[Rhino]

I realize there are no "hard rules" when it comes to diamonds.

Let me rephrase: "Should one generally avoid si1-2 diamonds with clouds as main inclusions?"

What type of effect do extensive clouds cause? It is about seeing inclusions or hindering brilliance/ sparkle?

I should also note that in the specific diamond that I am looking at (which is around 2.cts) all of the clouds are around the perimeter near the girdle and not on the table.

Thanks so much for helping a noob learn!!

Hi aquanut,

SI2 diamonds with clouds (or even SI1 for that matter) really need to be inspected. The cloud plot on a lab Report, while good for identifying the position of the cloud fails to communicate the density of the cloud. There are SI1 & SI2 (and I've even seen some VS diamonds) with either type. Of course the more dense the cloud is the easier it will be to see with the human eye. Also there are instances where some are only visible from the bottom (pavilion) and there are those visible from the top as well.

Insofar as it hindering optics, not really until you get to Imperfect clarity grades. But even if you get a diamond with confirmed top optics if the cloud is visible its visible. If the cloud is located on the crown facets and not under the table though it sounds like you'd be a fairly good shape with a worse case scenario of the cloud being only visible from the pavilion if it is indeed dense enough.

Hope that helps.

Regards,

 

[aquanaut]

Thanks very much for your response, Rhino.

The seller of this stone keeps reaffirming that it's "eye clean" but of course the definition of that phrase can vary.

I wanted to make sure that if I decide to see this stone in person that my only concern as far as clouds should be eye-cleanliness and nothing else which I may be unaware about/ or is harder to identify. This stone is very highly graded as far as cut.

 

[Rhino]

I hear you about varying definitions of "eye clean". Regardless of trade definition people tend to set their own standards. Clouds do not generally throw up a red flag for me perse as most are ok but the only way to know short of seeing photomicrographs is seeing it live. You anywhere close to the seller that you can? You may see it and your fears be alleviated.

Kind regards,

 

[Dancing Fire]

I realize there are no "hard rules" when it comes to diamonds.

Let me rephrase: "Should one generally avoid si1-2 diamonds with clouds as main inclusions?"

What type of effect do extensive clouds cause? It is about seeing inclusions or hindering brilliance/ sparkle?

I should also note that in the specific diamond that I am looking at (which is around 2.5cts) all of the clouds are around the perimeter near the girdle and not on the table.

Thanks so much for helping a noob learn!!

i'm pretty sure i know the stone that you are referring to...is this an H color stone?

 

[MarkBroumand]

I realize there are no "hard rules" when it comes to diamonds.

Let me rephrase: "Should one generally avoid si1-2 diamonds with clouds as main inclusions?"

What type of effect do extensive clouds cause? It is about seeing inclusions or hindering brilliance/ sparkle?

I should also note that in the specific diamond that I am looking at (which is around 2.5cts) all of the clouds are around the perimeter near the girdle and not on the table.

Thanks so much for helping a noob learn!!

As Rhino mentioned, SI1-SI2 diamonds should be inspected further and not necessarily avoided.

The case with clouds is not so much seeing it. Unless really dense or on the surface, they are usually difficult to detect with the naked eye.
Most concerns with clouds go along with your second mention, the "hindering brilliance/sparkle". When really dense, clouds have a tendency of...for a lack of a better word..."clouding" the stone. This doesn't happen often, but you always have to check with the vendor.

Your particular stone sounds like it should be ok - but only your eyes can be the judge of that for sure.

 

[aquanaut]

DancingFire - have you seen that stone IRL?

Mark thanks for your insight.

My concern is, would someone with little experience and untrained eye such as myself be able to see "cloudiness" in a stone, if it is there?

Rhino - don't live close and would have to arrange for it.

 

[Gypsy]

I'm not sure the untrained eye would immediately notice. But a grade setting cloud can make a diamond look...fuzzy. The light reflection isn't as bright as it could be. I think it is something that would be noticed over time though.

A competetent accredited independant appraiser certainly could tell you if there was an issue. What metro area are you near? We can see if we can recommend an appraiser for you.

 

[Dancing Fire]

DancingFire - have you seen that stone IRL?

no...don't know if we are talking about the same stone.

 

[aquanaut]

Thanks gypsy, I'm in NYC

 

[Gypsy]

https://www.pricescope.com/appraisers Take a look and see who is close to you.

If nothing there works here's what I'd do:
Well, he's not independant or an appraiser but Mark at ERD might be able to referr you to one. They are in the diamond district.


Engagement Rings Direct. Tell them you are a Pricescoper looking for an independant appraiser. You can tell them that Gypsy told you they might be able to assist you, they are always nice to me when I call for help.

 

[aquanaut]

Thanks Gypsy.

I'll research and think about it.

DancingFire - I'm pretty sure it's the same one. Just don't want to post details here until i make a decision.

 

[MarkBroumand]

DancingFire - have you seen that stone IRL?

Mark thanks for your insight.

My concern is, would someone with little experience and untrained eye such as myself be able to see "cloudiness" in a stone, if it is there?

Truthfully, probably not. A good option, along with the ones already posted, is to go out and compare stones in person in order to train yourself. Find a vendor near you with a varied selection of independently certified stones and compare diamonds with different grades in color and clarity to see if anything stands out for you. The cut should be consistent though, because that changes a lot of things.

 

[aquanaut]

DancingFire - have you seen that stone IRL?

Mark thanks for your insight.

My concern is, would someone with little experience and untrained eye such as myself be able to see "cloudiness" in a stone, if it is there?

Truthfully, probably not. A good option, along with the ones already posted, is to go out and compare stones in person in order to train yourself. Find a vendor near you with a varied selection of independently certified stones and compare diamonds with different grades in color and clarity to see if anything stands out for you. The cut should be consistent though, because that changes a lot of things.

Thanks again Mark.

I would not say that my eye is totally untrained. I am able to discern color fairly easily and have perfect vision and "eagle eyes" and have been told to be able to spot very difficult to see inclusions. However, so far, I have had trouble identifying differences in cut (H&A vs excellent vs. vg) granted, the latter two include a wide range and are not all created equally. I will add that I pretty much have decided what color I want to get and as far as clarity i want it to be very eye clean. Hence, an Si2 is a bit of a stretch but you never know and I could get lucky. Clarity is NOT a mind thing for me, as long as I can't see it, I don't care and would rather maximize size.

Lastly, I have never come in contact with various nuances such as "milkiness, cloudiness etc" and would depend on someone else to identify for me who I trust. This is where the trust issue comes in. Are all appraisers truly independent? How can I ever know for sure? I am sure various relationships exist between vendors and appraisers? Forgive me if this is a silly question, but I am quite a skeptic!

 

[Gypsy]

Oh goodness. NO NO NO NO NO. All appraisers are NOT independant. Actually the majority are VERY dependant, have ulterior motives and are under trained.

Yes, that's a generalization. But there is no state regulation or certification process for appraisers. So just about anyone can hang out a shingle and appraise. There are private groups and certifications and they are of varying degrees of good in terms of regulation (just like anything else).

Even many of the ones listed on PS aren't truly independant. My best PS recommended local appraiser for example WILL give recommendations of local jewelers to work with and will buy gold and consignment pieces from you and some appraisers (very few) don't consider that truly independant even. She has a good eye and for pieces where I do want a quicker turn around than mailing things to denver I use her and have had good experiences.

The only truly, truly independent appraiser who I've personally dealt with is Neil Beaty (DenverAppraiser on here). He's great and I cannot say enough about him, except to say that dealing with him made me realize just how far short so many other 'appraisers' fall. He's IMO the best.

I would NORMALLY *NOT* recommend asking ANY jeweler for an appraisal recommendation. The ONLY reason I suggested it (and I REALLY should have qualified my comments with this) is because you have a very specific question (does this grade setting cloud impact the performance of this particular stone) that can be best answered by someone with a trained eye. And I do trust Mark from ERD to know an appraiser with a good eye. And it's not Mark's stone. Not that I'm casting aspersions on Mark, quite the contrary. And I also recommended him because I have very close friends who have had excellent experiences with him, and because he is one of the only jewelers in the NY diamond district I personally would recommend for anything.

But I wouldn't ask an appraiser recommended by a particular jeweler to appraise that jeweler's goods, in general, because there is too much potential there for um... cloudiness, let's call it.

Hope this clarifies my earlier, misleading (SORRY!) post!

 

[Lorelei]

Is this statement true?

I am looking at a diamond which a reputable seller claims to be "eye clean" and can see on the AGS lab report that the main flaws are clouds. I was under the impression that clouds are virtually invisible with the naked eye?

Can anyone clarify on this topic?

Hi Aquanaut,

Rhino gave you a great overview! The way I approach it as a consumer is as Garry H taught me, clouds which are the main grade makers in SI1 or SI2 clarity or below need careful evaluation to make sure they aren't negatively impacting brilliance or performance. This is rare in SI1 but still needs checking, but can happen on occasion in SI2 and lower. Also if this remark is mentioned in the commments section ' clarity grade is based on clouds which are not shown' with SI grades then this also warrants careful inspection.

If, however, the comment states ' clouds are not shown', then this is not normally an issue and is only mentioned for completeness as the clarity grade is not based on clouds.

So for me, I wouldn't necessarily avoid an SI stone with clouds that were plotted or which the clarity grade was based on, but I would definitely want to have the diamond inspected by an impartial expert during any return period.

I hope this helps a bit.

 

[aquanaut]

Thanks all for your responses. I really appreciate it.

This is the stone I'm looking at:
http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamond/diamond-detail/?product_id=AGS-104047809052

It has been on the market for a while now....

Brian kept telling me that its very nice and eye clean and didn't mention any problems caused by clouds (although I didn't explicitly ask at the time of our conversation about effect on brilliance.)

Am not sure if I want to go through shipping it back and forth to look at it.

 

[yssie]

Ask Brian specifically. I would trust him to tell you the precise truth - afterall, BGD has nothing to gain by selling you a stone that does not represent BGD signature brand appearance and performance requirements - A) if it is an unsightly stone people who see your diamond will not want to purchase a BGD signature stone, which is bad for business, and B) if you don't like it because of some omission of truth on BGD's part you'll just send it back & detail your experience here on PS, which is also bad for business.

As to your question specifically - far, far fewer light rays will traverse through those clouds, by the girdle, than through clouds deep into the middle of the stone near the culet, say, so far, far fewer light rays are affected. When grading clarity the only consideration is if inclusions exist when the stone is viewed face-up through a 10x loupe - clarity grading says nothing about real-world visibility or effect of inclusions on light output. I venture that the effect on performance is unnoticeable, you can certainly ask Brian to confirm

 

[Gypsy]

Yeah. I wouldn't bother with mailing a BGD stone with a cloud back and forth. I'd just ask Brian to pull it and tell you.

You can get it appraised for your insurance later, obviously, but other than that Brian's word would be enough for me to buy the stone initially. Same with John's word from GOG. And Mark's word from ERD. And Winks word, or Pauls, or John Q's from Infinity. Todd from Nice Ice.

They are all SUPER low stress vendors.

I have 5 SI BGD signature diamonds. Suckers are amazing.

 

[Lorelei]

Yeah. I wouldn't bother with mailing a BGD stone with a cloud back and forth. I'd just ask Brian to pull it and tell you.

Ditto the ladies, Brian would be honest with you if there was a problem, and I doubt there would be of any kind with one of his in house hand selected stones.

 

[john gem]

I agree with Stone-cold "Nothing is set in stone for clarity grade and it's relation to eye-cleanliness."
and also Rhino "SI2 diamonds with clouds (or even SI1 for that matter) really need to be inspected"
I wouldn't pass judegement untyil you have seen one/it in person.

 

[oldminer]

I wouldn't strictly avoid stones with "cloud" comments. Sure, you can find an example of one or two to avoid, but as a general rule I'd prefer a cloud that one can't see to an open feather or black included crystal in many instances even if they were also eye-clean inclusions. When it comes to the descriptions used and the clarity plots labs provide, nothing does justice to the individual nature of each diamond short of making a personal inspection of it. I can trust some diamond dealers to make proper descriptions, but many dealers avoid making accurate descriptions in favor of hoping to make a sale in spite of the problems in the stone. They hope the buyer happens to be asleep....LOL.

At a low enough price, most every diamond has someone in the market looking for that particular combination of color, cut and inclusions. One can safely exclude stones with clouds and still have a vast selection to select from, but such an exclusion may not make the process faster or better.

 

[FoolishB]

When it comes to the descriptions used and the clarity plots labs provide, nothing does justice to the individual nature of each diamond short of making a personal inspection of it. I can trust some diamond dealers to make proper descriptions, but many dealers avoid making accurate descriptions in favor of hoping to make a sale in spite of the problems in the stone. They hope the buyer happens to be asleep....LOL.

This is the best advice. My FI bought my e-ring diamond from Mark at ERD and was guaranteed several times that it was eye-clean and there was nothing to worry about. Lo and behold when I get my ring, there is a large, bright white crystal that is visible in most lights from up to 2 ft away (it glows in the 2.5ct+ stone). FI trusted Mark because of all the recommendations on here, which was clearly a mistake, and now we have to live with a visibly included stone.

Hope your experience buying a diamond is better. Good Luck!

 

[slg47]

FoolishB did you try contacting them after you realized the inclusion was visible??

 

[Dancing Fire]

Thanks all for your responses. I really appreciate it.

This is the stone I'm looking at:
http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamond/diamond-detail/?product_id=AGS-104047809052

It has been on the market for a while now....

Brian kept telling me that its very nice and eye clean and didn't mention any problems caused by clouds (although I didn't explicitly ask at the time of our conversation about effect on brilliance.)

Am not sure if I want to go through shipping it back and forth to look at it.

i love the proportions on this diamond... if you can live with an SI2 clarity then this could be the right stone for you.

 

[John P]

Also if this remark is mentioned in the commments section 'clarity grade is based on clouds which are not shown' with SI grades then this also warrants careful inspection. If, however, the comment states ' clouds are not shown', then this is not normally an issue and is only mentioned for completeness as the clarity grade is not based on clouds.

The above by Lorelei is good information. The grade-setting clouds along the girdle have been plotted. The comment 'additional clouds are not shown' was made for sake of thoroughness. It would be more significant, and a warning flag to me, if the comment 'clarity grade based on clouds not shown' were present.

Diamonds are like snowflakes. Every one is different and bears inspection by a reputable expert. Double that need with SI diamonds when feathers, clouds or twinning wisps are present, and triple it as the diamond gets larger. Yes, I have seen SI diamonds graded by a strict lab where clouds hindered the optics. But in my experience these are rare on the order of fluorescence which creates issues, and seem to be more prevalent abroad. I suppose they may be 'pipelined' that way, in the same manner softer HRD reports seem to reach NYC.

In your case, with only a plot to guide us, the answers you receive here can only be based on our experiences and familiarity with the lab's reputation. So, while educated, our predictions cannot be conclusive. For that you have the expert guidance of Brian Gavin, who actually has the diamond and enjoys a top reputation for thoroughness in cases like yours. He is in the best position to guide you.

 

[aquanaut]

I don't really care what clarity grade it is a long as I can't see inclusions without a loupe.

Wish Brian was in my city, would make things much simpler