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Asscher is dark in the middle in some lights

Rivendell

Shiny_Rock
Joined
May 23, 2016
Messages
151
Hi
I'm new here and hope someone can help me. I have an asscher cut diamond but don't like the way it looks in some light conditions. The diamond has a dark square in the centre. In bright light the diamond looks lovely but the windmills are not very defined. I'm trying to work out if I just don't like the pattern of the asscher or if the cut is maybe not very good. I will post some pics to show what I mean. Thank you.

_3760.jpeg

_3761.jpeg
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
Can you return it?

It's probably poorly cut. Most are.
 

Rivendell

Shiny_Rock
Joined
May 23, 2016
Messages
151
Hi

I won't be able to return it. I just want to work out if the stone isn't very good or it's just that I don't care for the pattern. Unfortunately, I think it's the former. I have looked in this forum already and saw that you are very knowledgeable on asschers so I'm very pleased you have seen my post and taken time to reply to me.
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
Yup. P3 problem.

Not well cut.
 

Rivendell

Shiny_Rock
Joined
May 23, 2016
Messages
151
Thanks for your message. I was planning to get the stone appraised and valued here's in the UK. I'm assuming that any reputable jeweller will be able to straight away see the problem? My husband likes facts so I'd like to get something on paper I can show him. I suspect I'm also paying way over the odds for insurance.
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
Here's the technical explanation.

https://www.pricescope.com/journal/performance-and-p3-facets-discussion-about-step-cut-diamonds

What does it mean in non-technical speak? It means the facets closet to the culet are cut for weight retention instead of performance.

You typically see it most with stones that just squeak by at big carat marks. So a stone that would have been perfectly cut at .98 carats is cut to 1.00 carats instead so that e cutter can make the most money.

Why is this a thing. Because most buyers wouldn't know a well cut diamond from a poorly cut one. And most jewelers prey on this ignorance instead of educating their buyers. A buyer comes in. Knows he should hit a full carat and that he wants X shape and does very little other research. And when he views diamonds in person, it's with a bunch of mediocre stones. So even if he picks the best stone there, it's still a poorly cut stone. And he won't know any better. That's why we are here. To educate buyers and help them find the best stones for their budget.

As for appraisers. Most of those suck too. Sorry, but that's the truth.

And no, most reputable jewelers have no experience with asschers. And wouldn't know a good one from a princess.

So I'm sorry you are the victim of this. Best you can do is: Accept it. Trade it in for a better cut stone. Have it recut.

You can ask for appraisers near you that other PSers have used. In all likelihood in the UK it will be quite a trek to a good one.
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
I edited the above. You may want to read it again. :wavey:

Good night and good luck, I am off to sleep.
 

Rivendell

Shiny_Rock
Joined
May 23, 2016
Messages
151
Thanks for the link - I had read the post and wondered if that was the issue. You are totally correct with the weight the stone is just over the 2 carat mark. Would the jeweller have known it wasn't a good cut or maybe not? I started to really notice the dark square soon after I got the diamond. The mistake I made is believing the hype that the jeweller would choose me the best stone - I didn't see a selection. I know if I'd been presented with a choice I would not have chosen the stone. It's annoying but not the end of the world - hopefully I can trade in and get a new ring.
 

RaiKai

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Mar 8, 2010
Messages
1,255
Rivendell|1464006331|4035140 said:
Thanks for the link - I had read the post and wondered if that was the issue. You are totally correct with the weight the stone is just over the 2 carat mark. Would the jeweller have known it wasn't a good cut or maybe not? I started to really notice the dark square soon after I got the diamond. The mistake I made is believing the hype that the jeweller would choose me the best stone - I didn't see a selection. I know if I'd been presented with a choice I would not have chosen the stone. It's annoying but not the end of the world - hopefully I can trade in and get a new ring.
Would the jeweler have known - maybe, but it depends on how educated THEY are about cut. I have run into more than one jeweler who is really ignorant about diamonds as a whole. Selling jewelery does not always correspond to being educated about cut (or even other c's) beyond the very basics. I do not consider myself nearly as knowledgable as many prosumers here but even I have known when I know more than the salesperson does.

Others may know very well about cut, but take the risk their customers won't. If the customer comes in and says "I want it to be at least 2 carats, F in colour, and VVS2 or greater" they might very well take risk the customer knows very little about cut and is focused more on size/colour and sell them something that meets those "wants" and ignores cut.

I know some of the PS vendors do consider education part of the process, and will definitely sit down with you and help educate you so you can make the decision yourself. I really don't know any of the prosumers here either who would recommend you just let the jeweler "choose the stone" for you without ever seeing a selection...especially with fancies. Might be different if you loved 2-3 stones and asked them to help you make final choice, but it sounds like you did not even have that.

If you can trade it in, that would be ideal, and get the people here, including Gypsy, to help you choose a new stone that will blow this one away!
 

Karl_K

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
9,449
Gypsy|1463994562|4035108 said:
Yup. P3 problem.

Not well cut.
good call
If you look at the pavilion of the diamond you will see huge p1(tier closest to the girdle) and relatively small p2 and p3 tiers. It is common in stones cut for weight retention rather than beauty and light return.
It makes me sad because there is a beautiful 1.85ct diamond hiding in there.
 

Rivendell

Shiny_Rock
Joined
May 23, 2016
Messages
151
Karl_K|1464017048|4035206 said:
Gypsy|1463994562|4035108 said:
Yup. P3 problem.

Not well cut.
good call
If you look at the pavilion of the diamond you will see huge p1(tier closest to the girdle) and relatively small p2 and p3 tiers. It is common in stones cut for weight retention rather than beauty and light return.
It makes me sad because there is a beautiful 1.85ct diamond hiding in there.
Thank you for posting. In some lights the diamond does look lovely - it's F colour so is nice and white. I just can't see past the dark square and feel I've been sold a bit of a dud! What is the best way for me to go about getting an accurate valuation? I'm sure I'm paying way too much for insurance. I'll certainly be much more aware for future. Ideally I'd like to get a new ring - I'm just not really happy with it.
 

Rivendell

Shiny_Rock
Joined
May 23, 2016
Messages
151
RaiKai|1464011712|4035164 said:
Rivendell|1464006331|4035140 said:
Thanks for the link - I had read the post and wondered if that was the issue. You are totally correct with the weight the stone is just over the 2 carat mark. Would the jeweller have known it wasn't a good cut or maybe not? I started to really notice the dark square soon after I got the diamond. The mistake I made is believing the hype that the jeweller would choose me the best stone - I didn't see a selection. I know if I'd been presented with a choice I would not have chosen the stone. It's annoying but not the end of the world - hopefully I can trade in and get a new ring.
Would the jeweler have known - maybe, but it depends on how educated THEY are about cut. I have run into more than one jeweler who is really ignorant about diamonds as a whole. Selling jewelery does not always correspond to being educated about cut (or even other c's) beyond the very basics. I do not consider myself nearly as knowledgable as many prosumers here but even I have known when I know more than the salesperson does.

Others may know very well about cut, but take the risk their customers won't. If the customer comes in and says "I want it to be at least 2 carats, F in colour, and VVS2 or greater" they might very well take risk the customer knows very little about cut and is focused more on size/colour and sell them something that meets those "wants" and ignores cut.

I know some of the PS vendors do consider education part of the process, and will definitely sit down with you and help educate you so you can make the decision yourself. I really don't know any of the prosumers here either who would recommend you just let the jeweler "choose the stone" for you without ever seeing a selection...especially with fancies. Might be different if you loved 2-3 stones and asked them to help you make final choice, but it sounds like you did not even have that.

If you can trade it in, that would be ideal, and get the people here, including Gypsy, to help you choose a new stone that will blow this one away!
I was focused on cut, colour, clarity and carat but didn't have control in the selection of the stone other than colour, clarity and size. That's where it's gone wrong - hindsight is a great thing! I did ask to view the diamond before I committed but was told I couldn't. I should have walked away then but stupidly I didn't.
 

Blingalingaling

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 26, 2014
Messages
521
Something in your posting made me feel like sharing this. Although not quite the same, I see some parallels in the "shopping experience".

When my fiancé asked me to marry him, he said he'd like me to select a stone that would make me happy instead of picking something out for me. I knew I wanted an emerald cut diamond because I'd always loved step cuts and because I already owned two round stones that I'd inherited from my family. I wanted something entirely different, something uniquely mine. I've always loved diamonds and was looking forward to having the opportunity to select a stone that would suit my style, one that would make my heart sing. But what I thought would be pleasant and easy quickly became a surprisingly arduous task.

We worked with a few local jewelers who are well-known for sourcing stones and with one Pricescope vendor who was also local to us. In trying to find a larger-sized emerald cut (3-4+ carats) within a budget that was very generous of my fiancé, the vendors we worked with all said the same thing: they would source a few stones and if we didn't find anything to our liking they would bring in more until we found what we wanted. But in reality, that wasn't what happened.

The vendors initially each sourced one, two or at most three stones within the parameters we'd set upon meeting them. Off the bat, we would have to eliminate at least one stone for something like: having a visible inclusion, being a "dead stone", or for being over budget - all this just by eye, not even aided by ASETs or other diagnostic tools!! Instead of continuing the search, the jewelers would try to "sell me" on the stones they sourced for me instead of bringing in something new to choose from! In fact, I was told by more than one vendor that it costs a substantial amount of money to bring in stones (the insurance cost, the cost of messenger services, etc. One of the vendors charged a flat fee to bring in stones). When I didn't see what I wanted, instead of bringing in more stones they just tried to convince me that I wouldn't find anything better if I kept looking! They time-pressured me, saying that they had to return the stone to the cutter within a couple of days, making it impossible to look at more than one stone at a time! One jeweler said that we'd have to pay up front in full before viewing a stone - because he said his cutter wouldn't send it without being paid in advance. Even the Pricescope vendor, who was very nice and extremely knowledgeable, only brought in one emerald cut stone for me. He said was beautifully cut, and it might have been, but I saw too much warmth in the stone but if I wanted to see others - I'd have to go up in price another five to ten thousand, at least! So that didn't happen. Really?? There wasn't another stone to choose from within the budget worth looking at??

I expected to view stones until I found "the one". I was determined to find the stone that knocks me out! To this day, I wish that had happened. But there just wasn't any basis for comparison, I couldn't hold stones against each other and choose...!

I suggested to my fiancé that we should purchase from an on-line vendor, because by this time I had found Pricescope. But he wasn't keen on putting such a large amount of money on a credit card, waiting for credits, charging again... I still couldn't bring in more than one stone at a time at those prices to compare them side to side.

I ended up getting a stone that came as close to meeting my criteria as possible (even though it was a compromise), staying within our budget. I still look at it and think I could've done better - cut, maybe color.... And it bothers me, like your stone bothers you when you look at it. Because I know how to find a great stone - I've become educated, I think I should have been able to find it but couldn't for whatever reason. Not to seem ungrateful - I love my fiancé and I love that he bought me a beautiful diamond!

I read these boards and I think that finding the stone I really wanted should've been easier because there are things you can do narrow down the search, hypothetically. Aided by the wonderful Prosumers here on Pricescope, maybe I could have done better and if I trade up someday, I will!

But could it be that, because of the size of the stone or the cost of buying one this large, the options become very narrow? And in the end, it's a business and jewelers, even if they are knowledgeable about what they are selling, are still trying to "make a sale" at the lowest cost to them?

I wonder.
 

Rivendell

Shiny_Rock
Joined
May 23, 2016
Messages
151
Blingalingaling|1464027642|4035309 said:
Something in your posting made me feel like sharing this. Although not quite the same, I see some parallels in the "shopping experience".

When my fiancé asked me to marry him, he said he'd like me to select a stone that would make me happy instead of picking something out for me. I knew I wanted an emerald cut diamond because I'd always loved step cuts and because I already owned two round stones that I'd inherited from my family. I wanted something entirely different, something uniquely mine. I've always loved diamonds and was looking forward to having the opportunity to select a stone that would suit my style, one that would make my heart sing. But what I thought would be pleasant and easy quickly became a surprisingly arduous task.

We worked with a few local jewelers who are well-known for sourcing stones and with one Pricescope vendor who was also local to us. In trying to find a larger-sized emerald cut (3-4+ carats) within a budget that was very generous of my fiancé, the vendors we worked with all said the same thing: they would source a few stones and if we didn't find anything to our liking they would bring in more until we found what we wanted. But in reality, that wasn't what happened.

The vendors initially each sourced one, two or at most three stones within the parameters we'd set upon meeting them. Off the bat, we would have to eliminate at least one stone for something like: having a visible inclusion, being a "dead stone", or for being over budget - all this just by eye, not even aided by ASETs or other diagnostic tools!! Instead of continuing the search, the jewelers would try to "sell me" on the stones they sourced for me instead of bringing in something new to choose from! In fact, I was told by more than one vendor that it costs a substantial amount of money to bring in stones (the insurance cost, the cost of messenger services, etc. One of the vendors charged a flat fee to bring in stones). When I didn't see what I wanted, instead of bringing in more stones they just tried to convince me that I wouldn't find anything better if I kept looking! They time-pressured me, saying that they had to return the stone to the cutter within a couple of days, making it impossible to look at more than one stone at a time! One jeweler said that we'd have to pay up front in full before viewing a stone - because he said his cutter wouldn't send it without being paid in advance. Even the Pricescope vendor, who was very nice and extremely knowledgeable, only brought in one emerald cut stone for me. He said was beautifully cut, and it might have been, but I saw too much warmth in the stone but if I wanted to see others - I'd have to go up in price another five to ten thousand, at least! So that didn't happen. Really?? There wasn't another stone to choose from within the budget worth looking at??

I expected to view stones until I found "the one". I was determined to find the stone that knocks me out! To this day, I wish that had happened. But there just wasn't any basis for comparison, I couldn't hold stones against each other and choose...!

I suggested to my fiancé that we should purchase from an on-line vendor, because by this time I had found Pricescope. But he wasn't keen on putting such a large amount of money on a credit card, waiting for credits, charging again... I still couldn't bring in more than one stone at a time at those prices to compare them side to side.

I ended up getting a stone that came as close to meeting my criteria as possible (even though it was a compromise), staying within our budget. I still look at it and think I could've done better - cut, maybe color.... And it bothers me, like your stone bothers you when you look at it. Because I know how to find a great stone - I've become educated, I think I should have been able to find it but couldn't for whatever reason. Not to seem ungrateful - I love my fiancé and I love that he bought me a beautiful diamond!

I read these boards and I think that finding the stone I really wanted should've been easier because there are things you can do narrow down the search, hypothetically. Aided by the wonderful Prosumers here on Pricescope, maybe I could have done better and if I trade up someday, I will!

But could it be that, because of the size of the stone or the cost of buying one this large, the options become very narrow? And in the end, it's a business and jewelers, even if they are knowledgeable about what they are selling, are still trying to "make a sale" at the lowest cost to them?

I wonder.
Thanks for your post. I did feel pressured and what should have been a nice experience just wasn't. You are correct it's a business and maybe it's not viable to bring in lots of stones. But when you're spending that much money you should be able to see a decent selection!
 

lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Messages
10,405
Rivendell|1464019209|4035215 said:
Karl_K|1464017048|4035206 said:
Gypsy|1463994562|4035108 said:
Yup. P3 problem.

Not well cut.
good call
If you look at the pavilion of the diamond you will see huge p1(tier closest to the girdle) and relatively small p2 and p3 tiers. It is common in stones cut for weight retention rather than beauty and light return.
It makes me sad because there is a beautiful 1.85ct diamond hiding in there.
Thank you for posting. In some lights the diamond does look lovely - it's F colour so is nice and white. I just can't see past the dark square and feel I've been sold a bit of a dud! What is the best way for me to go about getting an accurate valuation? I'm sure I'm paying way too much for insurance. I'll certainly be much more aware for future. Ideally I'd like to get a new ring - I'm just not really happy with it.
I am certainly not an expert on this type of cut, but would a re-cut be an option? I know that some vendors are able to re-cut stones, and that might be potentially more cost effective versus getting an entirely new set.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
28,153
lovedogs|1464036877|4035378 said:
Rivendell|1464019209|4035215 said:
Karl_K|1464017048|4035206 said:
Gypsy|1463994562|4035108 said:
Yup. P3 problem.

Not well cut.
good call
If you look at the pavilion of the diamond you will see huge p1(tier closest to the girdle) and relatively small p2 and p3 tiers. It is common in stones cut for weight retention rather than beauty and light return.
It makes me sad because there is a beautiful 1.85ct diamond hiding in there.
Thank you for posting. In some lights the diamond does look lovely - it's F colour so is nice and white. I just can't see past the dark square and feel I've been sold a bit of a dud! What is the best way for me to go about getting an accurate valuation? I'm sure I'm paying way too much for insurance. I'll certainly be much more aware for future. Ideally I'd like to get a new ring - I'm just not really happy with it.
I am certainly not an expert on this type of cut, but would a re-cut be an option? I know that some vendors are able to re-cut stones, and that might be potentially more cost effective versus getting an entirely new set.
I'd get it recut by Yoram Finkelstein, who posts here as DiaGem.
Hes a master diamond cutter in Israel who cut my Octavia and Good Old Gold's August Vintage Diamonds.

http://www.gemconcepts.net
 
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