Argyle pinks vs generic pinks

[gregchang35]

As some of you may know, i am interested in getting 2 similar argyle pinks for my 2 daughters. It is an investment for them to do as they so choose. hopefully, they will set it to wear one day.

I know that FCD are based on the colour and personal taste, but wondered what pp thought about getting argyles v generic pinks. Argyle pinks are now getting harder to purchase as the mines are closing in 2020.

Has anyone got thoughts on a vendor by the name of langerman? They are manufacturers and source rough from Argyle. The rough is cut and polished by the company. So, what this means is that these stones do not get the inscription or certificate/ report from Argyle. Based on that thought processes of choosing between argyle pink or generic pink. they have said the following to clarify:

For the certificates, I would of course make out an Expert's report, as we always do, stating the origin of these diamonds. As I explained, Argyle certificates are only issued for a fraction of the diamonds originating there, however there is a more scientific guarantee that can reassure you on this question. Argyle is the only source in the world for this kind of metallic (grayish) blue and intense (purplish) pink colors. There is no other mine that produces or has produced this kind of colors. A certain number of dark blue diamonds have been found on Borneo, but they didn't have this kind of metallic blue color, and the blue diamonds previously found in South Africa had a light, sky blue color. For the pink diamonds, some lighter pink diamonds have also been found in African and Brazilian mines, but they were really light pinks. I hope this can reassure you!

Also, an Argyle certificate has no impact on the value of the diamond, it only means that Rio Tinto (Argyle) has graded the color according to their internal color grading system (P and PP 1-10).

Love to hear input from all.

thanx
greg

 

[proto]

I am not reassured and argyle certificate does add a premium

 

[diamondseeker2006]

You need Kenny and especially Mr and Mrs Kroshka to reply to this. The Kroshkas have experience with pinks, especially.

 

[gregchang35]

Thanx Proto for input....

I guess i was getting impatient and looking for the stones to have now.

DS, can you bump this and the other thread for me. it is 11pm here in AUS and time for me to head to bed...thanx!

 

[pinkjewel]

If it is Argyle provenance you want for investment you need to have the Argyle inscription on the diamond. A certificate is nice but not a requirement. Yes, that color is only found NOW in the Argyle mine, but who knows what the future holds. And, yes, Argyles are being sold at a premium now over other pinks, but I do think a lot of people are "investing" in them. Makes me wonder if there will be a lot (relatively speaking) of Argyles hitting the secondary market once the mine closes-if it indeed closes when they say...

With that said I don't think 5000 to 7000 is a huge investment- so I'd say go for it. If nothing else, you're girls can make something pretty to think of dear old Dad with.

eta; you asked about Langerman. I've never bought from them and I'm pretty sure I've seen Kenny write that he hasn't either. They seem reputable- but I have no idea how accurate their photos are and they charge a very high shipping fee which has made me steer clear of them. You might want to call Leibish to see what they have available. I know they've been at the Hong Kong show, so don't know how depleted their stock is.

 

[kenny]

I've never dealt with Langerman.
IMO a 'certificate' from Langerman stating a pink is from Argyle is less desirable than a certificate from Argyle.

IMO there is a pecking order to the Argyle pinks.
Starting at the top:
1. The best 50 or so FCDs of Argyle's annual output and are sold in a private auction. Tender stones have an Argyle laser inscription, a Certificate from Argyle, and another certificate stating it is a Tender stone.
2. The 'better' stones get a laser inscription and an Argyle certificate.
3. Next best get a laser inscription but no certificate
4. Others get no inscription or certificate.

IMO the higher Argyle placed them on this pecking order the higher the price per carat will be, though hard to prove with data since each is an individual and they are rare.
The Kroshkas have done more hard research than I have on pricing of Argyle pinks.
I just bought one.

In recent years as Argyle's output has declined they are blessing lower and diamonds with inscriptions, even browns IIRC.
I speculate long after the mine closes the pinks with lower Argyle numbers will be more valuable since getting an inscription meant more back then.

 

[justginger]

I don't think Argyle are going to pull another inning out of their hat for the mine - the friends I know who have relatives working at the mine are all very confident that their time will be up as expected. They are getting too far underground now for the juice to be worth the squeeze, so to speak.

Quality is definitely declining, as Kenny said. I love how some of the newer pinks are orangy, I picked one of those up (think its cert is only from last year), but I do not like how incredibly gray all of the blues are now.

I personally would never purchase an Argyle stone without cert or inscription. Without one or the other, you have no proof of provenance. If you're only buying for colour alone, go for it - but make sure you are paying a fair rate, not the Argyle premium without the Argyle name.

 

[mr_kroshka]

Hi Greg,

You have the two amazing FCD's (Fabulously Cute Daughters ) and whether the stone appreciates financially in future or not they will appreciate the token of love that their Dad is getting for them.

Krosha knows much more about FCD's than me and she will post later but I had one question in the meanwhile. Did you check the 'Argyle Colour' classification for the stone you posted in the other thread? Does Argyle call it PC1 color?

Mr. Kroshka

 

[Rockdiamond]

I think it's a great question Greg.
As a general rule, I find that Argyle paperwork does indeed increase the asking price by dealers in most cases.
Does that make it a pinker diamond of the same color without the Argyle paperwork? Clearly not.
I have heard it said that a given stone could only look that pink because it came from the Argyle Mine. And I've seen other pink diamonds that looked just as incredible with no claim of Argyle Provenance,.
In terms of investment....well that's another question.
For any financial investment to pay off, you have to sell it.
See what pink diamonds sell for on the secondary market- as if you were trying to sell one yourself to get an idea about the spread between retail price ( from a dealer) and the price a private individual can hope to realize.

By all means, invest in diamonds because you love them and they bring enjoyment- but selling them for a profit is a full time job ( and then some)

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Glad you are getting some good responses, Greg! I am sorry I neglected to add Pinkjewel to the list above, but I am glad she saw the thread! RD, too!

 

[gregchang35]

Hi Greg,

You have the two amazing FCD's (Fabulously Cute Daughters ) and whether the stone appreciates financially in future or not they will appreciate the token of love that their Dad is getting for them.

Krosha knows much more about FCD's than me and she will post later but I had one question in the meanwhile. Did you check the 'Argyle Colour' classification for the stone you posted in the other thread? Does Argyle call it PC1 color?

Mr. Kroshka

the other thread is here and sorry for cross posting. This is not from the vendor that i was referring to above. The stone that is referred to in this thread [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/argyle-pink-opinion.203270/#post-3698356#p3698356']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/argyle-pink-opinion.203270/#post-3698356#p3698356,,[/URL], is definitely an Argyle. The Argyle colour is 5PR. But, as i have mentioned in the other thread, i am concerned about the obstruction that i see in the pictures. And whether that will change how it performs ( not htat FCDs are cut to perform- more for their colour). I guess i dont want to get the diamond and the obsturction will dull the stone too much to make it worth while.. That would then translate to approx $1000 for the viewing pleasure.

Mr Kroshka thanks for posting and hoping that Krosha will see both posts and will provide feedback.

Kenny thanx for your input. Informative as always.
PD- the diamond will be shipped free of charge from langermans. yay...it is just the argyle inscription and report that is still stuck in my mind. maybe a marketting campaign just like de beers with MUST buy D IF diamond as they are the best of the best.....

RD- thanx for guidance.
I guess, from my perspective pink diamonds have been associated with the Argyle mine. So, when i do get a pink diamond, i want to make sure that it is argyle pink.

here is the thing: I am trying to reason in my mind in the same manner with repros of the HW halo or a tiffanys E rings. OR the debeers campaign that ensures that all guys buy D IF diamonds..... i am just not over the line at the moment with either thinking of argyle pink or generic pink.

 

[kroshka]

Hi Greg,

Something that I have noticed over time is that pinks with argyle certs definitely have a premium on them vs a stone with all similar specs without an argyle. For resale value, an argyle certed stone would probably be considered more desirable in a generalized sense (depends on the buyer, but obviously if you want to appeal to wider audience the cert helps especially for those that only want a stone that has
a an argyle cert as a requirement). It's a personal thing - is having that paper part of your requirement? For me as a collector, it's a nice to have, but I don't necessarily want to pay the premium for it if I do not have to. Then again if I were only buying for the purpose of reselling, I might feel a bit differently. I'd also have to say it depends how much more of a premium it is that I would have to pay to get a stone with an argyle. That said prices have been soaring over time regardless of an argyle cert or not.

I have not personally made a purchase from Langerman's before, however they seem to have a nice selection. I will have the opportunity to visit with them, so if you would like me to view the stones you are considering, I would be happy to give my opinion.

For the size you seem to be searching for (0.14-0.17ct), I think you have choices. Do you have specific requirements/criteria and a prioritized list of them?

Kroshka

 

[gregchang35]

Hi there,

The criteria are:
1) max USD $7500 as i have to consider the taxes that i have to pay to come into AUS.
2) GIA= FIP or FIPP
3) Argyle colour= 3,4,5,6 P or 3,4,5,6pp
4) Si1 eye clean.
5) no specific dimensions


Have contacted leibish and they have shown me some. they are good but have some brown modifiers in them. I woudl prefer the pinks to be pinks, if you know what i mean.

 

[chrono]

Colour-wise, if the colour is as stated by GIA, then there is no issue in that department. The "problem" I have is whether Langerman or whoever else is selling any FCD as Arygle, with or without Argyle pricing but without the necessary Argyl paperwork and inscription to back it up. Any reports issued by the vendor is essentially as useless or valuable as the paper it is printed on. I have no issue if it is sold at "regular" FCD pricing because there is nothing to back it up officially as Argyle should I one day decide to resell it or have insurance replace it for damage/loss. The way I see it, Argyle does have a premium and it is based on location/origin, the same way pricing has an effect on Burmese ruby, Kashmir blue sapphire and the like, regardless of the quality of the gem.

 

[pinkjewel]

Colour-wise, if the colour is as stated by GIA, then there is no issue in that department. The "problem" I have is whether Langerman or whoever else is selling any FCD as Arygle, with or without Argyle pricing but without the necessary Argyl paperwork and inscription to back it up. Any reports issued by the vendor is essentially as useless or valuable as the paper it is printed on. I have no issue if it is sold at "regular" FCD pricing because there is nothing to back it up officially as Argyle should I one day decide to resell it or have insurance replace it for damage/loss. The way I see it, Argyle does have a premium and it is based on location/origin, the same way pricing has an effect on Burmese ruby, Kashmir blue sapphire and the like, regardless of the quality of the gem.

Chrono, you bring up an interesting point. Since GIA and AGL do origin reports for coloured gems, I wonder if it's possible for GIA to do origin reports for coloured diamonds in the future. That way, even without Argyle paperwork or inscription, people could know the origin was from the Argyle mine. I still don't think those stones would command the same price as those with a certificate or inscription, but it would give provenance.

 

[justginger]

Colour-wise, if the colour is as stated by GIA, then there is no issue in that department. The "problem" I have is whether Langerman or whoever else is selling any FCD as Arygle, with or without Argyle pricing but without the necessary Argyl paperwork and inscription to back it up. Any reports issued by the vendor is essentially as useless or valuable as the paper it is printed on. I have no issue if it is sold at "regular" FCD pricing because there is nothing to back it up officially as Argyle should I one day decide to resell it or have insurance replace it for damage/loss. The way I see it, Argyle does have a premium and it is based on location/origin, the same way pricing has an effect on Burmese ruby, Kashmir blue sapphire and the like, regardless of the quality of the gem.

Chrono, you bring up an interesting point. Since GIA and AGL do origin reports for coloured gems, I wonder if it's possible for GIA to do origin reports for coloured diamonds in the future. That way, even without Argyle paperwork or inscription, people could know the origin was from the Argyle mine. I still don't think those stones would command the same price as those with a certificate or inscription, but it would give provenance.

I contacted AGL and asked them about this - the response was that it was a service they do not offer, and have no outlook to do so in the future.

 

[gregchang35]

PJ,

now that is something that i can ask!!! Even if it has been certified by GIA in the past, i could look at asking for an updated GIA report..

JG- thanx for the input...i will ask the vendor.

 

[pinkjewel]

PJ,

now that is something that i can ask!!! Even if it has been certified by GIA in the past, i could look at asking for an updated GIA report..

JG- thanx for the input...i will ask the vendor.

But I don't think that's a service they are currently offering for coloured diamonds. I was wondering if they might do it in the future. Good to know justginger that AGL has no plans to do it.

 

[gregchang35]

Ah ha, got it....

 

[pinkjewel]

It's funny, but I was just wondering about provenance for bluish green diamonds. Since they would need radiation for the green component and boron for the blue component, I wouldn't think there would be too many places that had that combination. I read somewhere that many (relatively speaking-lol) are mined in Russia, but it would be interesting to know for sure. Wish one of the grading labs did offer the service for coloured diamonds.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Without the Argyle number it's not possible to verify origin.
I agree that any paperwork short of that is not acceptable proof.
The fact is that a lot of stones with Argyle logos have no number- therefore they can't be sold as verifiable Argyle diamonds.
BUT- many of them in fact are Argyle stones. This may have happened due to a recut.
Given that the provenance definitely increases value, these stones may present great value when compared to stones that have the number.

In terms of stones with identical GIA color grades such as Fancy Intense Pink/Purple pink etc...
Having the same grade does not necessarily mean it's the same color.
Pinks from Brazil, for example may get the same color grade- but have a different cast of pink,.

PJ- GIA is not concerned with provenance- only if the stone has been exposed to man made, verus natural radiation.
This is true of all green diamonds ( buleish green, yellowish green, etc)