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Appraisal Burma Ruby

Discussion in 'Colored Gemstones' started by Fabri, Aug 3, 2019.

  1. Fabri
    Rough_Rock

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    by Fabri » Aug 3, 2019
    Hello, it’s a pleasure for me to be part of this community. If I’m posting this in the wrong section please feel free to delete it.
    Few months back I received a nice Burma Ruby as a form of payment for a work I did. Now I’m really considering to make a ring to give to my mom for Christmas.
    I’m just curious about the value that this stone might have. I brought it to GIA my self to ask for a certificate. Here few pics and video Of the stone including the certificate.
    I thank any of you in advance who want to give me some opinion about this stone and approximately the value of it.. even I don’t have intention to sell because I just love it.
    Regards,
    Fabri

    Gia certificate:
    https://imageshack.us/i/plhE1B9oj

    https://imageshack.us/i/poVVKqVXj

    Video stone:


    Some pics:

    https://imageshack.us/i/pojbxrZ5j
    https://imageshack.us/i/pnfMAXrWj
    https://imageshack.us/i/po7bOAQMj
    https://imageshack.us/i/pn6j3G6bj
     
    


    


  2. Bron357
    Ideal_Rock

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    by Bron357 » Aug 3, 2019
    It lovely.
    I would send it to AGL for a Prestige report. GIA is not “best” for coloured gems.
    The big thing is the “minor residues”, that needs to be better quantified and possibly also tested for Beryllium diffusion treatment as this can go hand in hand with heat treatment (it improves colour). So if you have a heated ruby with residue you definately need to rule out BE treatment.
    The value of rubies varies enormously depending on level and type of treatment.
    As a heated ruby with confirmed minor residue (as a result of cutting) and no Beryllium treatment, probably $15,000 plus for an over 2 carat Burmese ruby of top colour.
    But if flux residue is detected and/or Beryllium treatment the value can plummet to maybe just a few hundred dollars.
    Treatments are a huge deal with Rubies and due to their value “people” do all sorts of things to improve their value. This is why full testing from a top lab is recommended.
     
  3. Fabri
    Rough_Rock

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    by Fabri » Aug 3, 2019
    Thanks a lot for you reply. I’m in Bangkok at the moment and I would definitely look for a AGL lab here now..
    Just to confirm, is this stone considered top color in the trade?
    The person who gave this ruby to me said that has only been heated and not other treatments has been done. Hope the lab will confirm so.
    Btw “ minor residue has result of cutting” , They told me The stone has been heated at hight temeperature.. not just due to cutting i guess..
    Fabri
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2019
  4. Fabri
    Rough_Rock

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    by Fabri » Aug 3, 2019
    I just found AGL lab in BKk I’ll go there in couple of days... I’m sure they’ll need to keep the stone for weeks before release a report.. let’s see :))
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2019
    


    


  5. T L
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by T L » Aug 3, 2019
    Are you sure it’s the lab affiliated with the New York lab -American Gemological Laboratories?
     
  6. chroman
    Brilliant_Rock

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  7. icy_jade
    Ideal_Rock

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    by icy_jade » Aug 3, 2019
    You can consider GRS instead
    http://gemresearch.ch/contact/

    There is also Lotus lab in Bangkok but as I understand from my jeweller it’s not as recognized based on auction house preferences... so typically GRS is used instead when the local stores want to get a ‘better’ cert. And GRS will also indicate pigeon blood on your cert if it falls within their parameters.

    And yes pigeon blood is considered top color. That said I’ve seen some really awful pigeon bloods so ultimately is still how the stone looks.
     
  8. Fabri
    Rough_Rock

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    by Fabri » Aug 4, 2019
    Oh OK, so i Will opt for GRS. As You Said AGL is not the same as in NY, i just Made my homework..
    Btw in case the lab Will confirm the stone has not been treated. What’s the market price for this ct/origin/colour? 15k USD ? The stone has some Very small inclusion almost impossible to see with naked eye which does’t affect the Clarity at all. It is Realty Nice to see and the shine (to me) it’s simply Stunning from each side of the stone..
    Here a better quality video i did not.. what do you think ?


    Fabri
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2019
  9. Bron357
    Ideal_Rock

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    by Bron357 » Aug 4, 2019
    GRS and Lotus are also top labs and “people” trust their reports are being comprehensive and accurate.
    Treatment with Rubies is common. If your ruby has had high heat treatment there is a potential for flux filling to improve clarity, heal fissures / cracks and Beryllium treatment to improve colour. These treatments are often done to improve saleabilty, and are not necessarily known / disclosed by a vendor, which is why purchasers insist on reputable lab reports before purchase. There is such a vast difference in price depending on treatments. An unheated Burmese Ruby of top colour can be $20,000 - $30,000 for 2 carats. A high heat, flux filled, BE treated ruby, which looks to the eye the same, is worth like $50 for 2 carats.
    The main price drivers for ruby are size, prices go up exponentially as size increases ie at over 1 carat, over 2 carat, over 5 carat and over 10 carat. Then there’s level of treatment, unheated carries a big premium, origin, Burmese is considered the best, colour, this can be subjective but a Pigeon blood red that is vivid is considered best and clarity is somewhat less important. You would just expect inclusions that don’t affect durability or render the gem more translucent than transparent.
    So this is why people insist on top lab reports, no one wants to buy a $20,000 worth $50.
     
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  10. Fabri
    Rough_Rock

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    by Fabri » Aug 4, 2019


    Thanks for this accurate explanation, I will definitely go to GRS soon. In case this ruby has only been heated, not flux filled or treated with anything else, which is the value of it , roughly ?
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2019
    


    


  11. Fabri
    Rough_Rock

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    by Fabri » Aug 4, 2019
    I spoke again with my friend who’s a wholesale , where I got this one and the only procedure he does is put the stone under acid for 1 night before heat it . He says this is normal for all heated rubies .. but he never fill the stones with anything.. I don’t know what acid he’s talking about but he said it’s normal before heating the stone, to clean it under acid when it’s still raw..
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2019
  12. Fabri
    Rough_Rock

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    by Fabri » Aug 4, 2019
    I checked GRS certificate samples online, and it’s stated exactly the same as GIA nothing less nothing more.. same parameters. :???: So why should I do another certificate with them? Just to double confirm what Gia said? Because they won’t give me more informations anyway..
     
  13. Bron357
    Ideal_Rock

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    by Bron357 » Aug 4, 2019
    If you look at GRS Swiss lab report details you will see there are actually 7 categories of “Heat” treatments.
    A report saying H only is the best.
    Then depending on the amount of residues present there are increasing levels of residue being (a), (b), (c) and (d).
    A purchaser normally accepts H(a) as being an unintended consequence of the heat treatment in that there is only a trace amount of residue.
    H (b) and H (c) are considered consciously treated with flux to close fissures and cracks and H (d) is considered a Composite ruby aka more glass filling than actual ruby.
    Then there is H (Be) which is heat with Beryllium and HPHT which high heat with High Temperature.
    And this is the information only a top lab can provide as they have the specialized equipment and vast experience necessary to make such assessments.
    And it matters because H and H(a) might be $10,000 a carat whereas H (Be) and HPHT might be $50 a carat. Many people wouldn’t even give you $1 a carat for a H (d).
    And trust me, when it comes to Rubies every trick in the book and then some has been tried to improve the raw material and make it look better because they are so desired and valuable. It is a foolhardy buyer who doesn’t insist on a top lab report.
    You are keeping the gem so it probably doesn’t matter but when you do go to sell it, you will find it harder to realize top dollar with a GIA comment of minor residues as there is a price difference between H(a) and H (b).
     
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  14. Fabri
    Rough_Rock

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    by Fabri » Aug 4, 2019
    Ok, all very clear now. I’ll definitely go to GRS tomorrow.. I’ll comeback here with a certificate :) but I heard that could take up to weeks for the result. Let’s see. Thanks a lot again ! I really appreciate your answer.
    Fabri
     
  15. icy_jade
    Ideal_Rock

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    by icy_jade » Aug 4, 2019
    If you are in BKK, go to the gem market and see what a similar sized/spec ruby costs (heated, and maybe assume heat only).

    Then if you plan to sell, take a 20-30% mark down?

    Obviously sellers will quote as high as they can sell. And if you are in higher end retail places, prices go up way more. I’ve seen stones going at easily double/triple depending on who sells it so...

    Sorry can’t give you a more definite answer. But if you are planning to gift to your mum, then probably it doesn’t really matter?
     
    


    


  16. Fabri
    Rough_Rock

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    by Fabri » Aug 4, 2019
    Thanks for the answer, tomorrow I’ll go to GRS first. Regarding the gem market I can have an idea but prices are really crazy especially when they understand I’m not really an expert. So it’s a bit hard this way. I’ll do my researches again with a proper certificate on my hand.
    This Ruby is for my mom but I’m planning a setting with two very nice diamonds on the side and I want the ruby to be nice too. It’s just my ocd hehe
    I’ll post the certificate here once I get it.
    Fabri
     
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  17. Fabri
    Rough_Rock

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    by Fabri » Aug 6, 2019
    Today I went to GRS.
    Waiting time and price list for certificate.
    3 days waiting: 1000usd
    2 weeks: 500usd
    1 month: 350usd
    2 months: 200usd

    I opted 2 months cause I have enough time before go back to Italy for Xmas.
    Today I bought also a Ruby for my sister 1.01 ct unheated from Burma almost totally clear inside with a beautiful vivid red color and give it to the GRS as well...
    I’m curious and anxious for the results.
    For the rubies lovers here is the vid of the unheated one:
    Have good week you all

    Fabrizio
     
  18. arkieb1
    Ideal_Rock

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    by arkieb1 » Aug 6, 2019
    I don't get the confusion here, GIA doesn't usually get rubies wrong ie if it's heat with minor residues, that's what it is, it is NOT BE treated, it is NOT glass filled. They are different processes entirely.

    A just over 2 carat ruby even that top colour I'm sorry to tell you will sell for between $1500 and $4500USD in todays market, maybe a little more, depending upon where you list it for sale, you are never going to get $15 000 per carat for a heated ruby with residues, even if they are minor.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2019
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  19. Fabri
    Rough_Rock

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    by Fabri » Aug 6, 2019
    Hiarkieb thanks for your reply. When you say between 1.500 to 4.500 you mean per carat ?
     
  20. arkieb1
    Ideal_Rock

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    by arkieb1 » Aug 6, 2019
    No I mean that's the total, seriously I have a just over one carat heated ruby with minor residues top colour it's worth way less than $1000 per carat. At two carats you are looking at those prices for the whole stone in today's market.
     
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  21. Fabri
    Rough_Rock

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    by Fabri » Aug 6, 2019
    Do you know where I can buy this price ?
     
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  22. Fabri
    Rough_Rock

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    by Fabri » Aug 6, 2019
    For example these are stones sold around 30k to 40k thb per carat (around 1k usd ) all top color but lower quality because more inclusions. The one i got it’s a better quality than this with much less inclusions and sold (wholesale) at 5k usd for two ct, as you said. But to get this price you need to buy the whole lot around 30 million bath (900k usd ) .. nobody will sell a single stone this quality for 4.5k 2 ct here in Bangkok.. Due to my job i see big trades at this price 4.5 k 2ct heated same quality as mine, but as I said to get this price clients buy entire lots for the value of 500k to a million dollar. That’s why I believed retail should be up to 10k for this 2ct heated same quality.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2019
  23. Rfisher
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    by Rfisher » Aug 6, 2019
    It sounds like at your job you must have some fantastic contacts. I’m sure those contacts can point you towards a local ( or readily available to you) independent appraiser you can hire to give you a hands on unbiased market value?
    You’ve been given the thoughts of total strangers here, I’m sure you are curious to see how that differs. Me too!
     
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  24. Fabri
    Rough_Rock

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    by Fabri » Aug 6, 2019
    I was just curious to have an external opinion from abroad about the value of it. This world for me it’s a universe made of millions of different little details to learn .. and I’m trying really hard. Anyway in couple of months with both certificates on my hands it’ll be easier even to contact someone locally as you suggested. I’ll keep you posted .. I’m curious too :D
     
  25. voce
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by voce » Aug 6, 2019
    The only way you'd get $15,000 is if your ruby was unheated.
     
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  26. arkieb1
    Ideal_Rock

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    by arkieb1 » Aug 6, 2019
    Go to gem shows in Hong Kong and Singapore there are literally stands of ruby vendors selling top coloured heat with minor residue rubies for the prices I've quoted, many of them claiming they are heat only.
     
  27. VividRed
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    by VividRed » Aug 10, 2019
    @Fabri nice ruby you got there mate, you must have done a pretty good job!

    I am not in the trade, but from what I’ve seen so far I would make a “back of the envelope” calculation as follows:

    That exact same ruby, if unheated, would easily sell for USD 20k/ct. retail, perhaps even 30k if you bought it in a premium jewelry store (Gübelin for example). So let’s say 8-10k/ct. wholesale. You would be able to sell at maybe 20% below wholesale so let’s say 8k/ct. that’s how you get to approx. USD 15k in total.

    A heated stone will probably trade at a 30-50% discount. Minor residue, although not a real problem in terms on stability and quality of the stone, will eat up another 10-15%. So you could probably imagine finding a buyer at 6-7k. Again that’s assuming the GRS measure of H(a) which is usually on par with “minor residue” from GIA.

    Anyway, just my two cents. I think it’s a lovely stone!

    Cheers,
    VRed
     
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  28. qubitasaurus
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    by qubitasaurus » Aug 10, 2019
    I think Ivy New York is in hong kong. They have a lsrge inventory, perhaps they will have some heated with minor residues stones for you to compare agsinst? Otherwise I am with Arkieb I think Hong Kong has several open to the public shows towards the end of the year you may get an idea there -- unfortunately you will have to battle against the need to know what you are comparing against had a similar level of treatment (your stone is worth a small fraction of what an unheated one, or even a heat only stone would be worth) and the need to bargain for an accurate price at the show. Totally doable though, and sounds like fun!

    I am also projecting arround >5k though. Heated with residues just isnt that rare.
     
  29. VividRed
    Shiny_Rock

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    by VividRed » Aug 11, 2019
    I would not sell it by the way, it’s a very beautiful ruby!
     
  30. Fabri
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    by Fabri » Aug 12, 2019
    Hi VividRed thanks a lot for your reply, it’s very accurate and I also think the same price.. maybe lil bit more if it happens to find same quality stone already in a setting selling in some nice jewelry store. But roughly I also think that’s the value.. btw I’ll have the GRS certificate October 6th, hope is an H(a) ..let’s see !

    Btw I bought this 1ct unheated also from
    Burma with a wonderful color and totally clean inside , I’d say almost not inclusions at all. I gave it to the lab as well together with the heated one.
    Check it out :)
     

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