Any Qs / interest in China-HK market & engagement tradition?

[John P]

Hello Pricescopers.

I’ll be speaking-at and attending the China International Jewellery Fair in Beijing this week, then traveling to Hong Kong for several days, spending time in professional sectors and consumer markets alike. I thought of PS and the possibility of interest or questions from Pricescopers regarding these markets and the rapidly growing engagement tradition in Asia.

Fire away if interested ~ and I will do my best to check and pursue answers for you while I'm here.

Cheers,

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: Any Qs / interest in China-HK market & engagement tradit

hey JP.. i have a couple of Qs.
see if you can find out the avg size HK vs China and how much they spent on Erings.

Thanks

 

[Dreamer_D]

Re: Any Qs / interest in China-HK market & engagement tradit

I would be interested to know what colors and clarity are most popular. We always hear it is D VVS so Iwonder if that is changing at all.

I would also be interested to know how marketing/advertising of diamonds might differ than in N/Am.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Re: Any Qs / interest in China-HK market & engagement tradit

If they are adopting western engagement traditions, are they doing western style weddings with the white dress and veil?

Enjoy your trip! I have been to China once and it was a fascinating place!

 

[MissGotRocks]

Re: Any Qs / interest in China-HK market & engagement tradit

I would be interested to know what colors and clarity are most popular. We always hear it is D VVS so Iwonder if that is changing at all.

I would also be interested to know how marketing/advertising of diamonds might differ than in N/Am.

I too would be very interested to know what color/clarity/size they are pursuing most. Would be interesting to see if with super sharp cuts they are beginning to accept lower colors in their stones.

 

[John P]

Re: Any Qs / interest in China-HK market & engagement tradit

Hello DF, DD, DS and MGR,

I'm just starting my day (GMT+ in Chaoyang district.

Great salvo of questions. Thank you. I've developed impressions over several visits here since 2009 but was hoping to get specific queries like this from people such as yourselves as it will inspire "fresh" investigation.

Cheers and I'll be back later. Happy to field more, if others are interested.

 

[canuk-gal]

Re: Any Qs / interest in China-HK market & engagement tradit

HI:

Do the bride and groom exchange engagement/wedding jewellery gifts?
Who picks out the ring/jewellery--do parents, or couples? Is a "surprsie" (aka fiancee) a big element of the engagment process?
Is face to face shopping for rings important--or are people open to online purchasing?
Would colored stone be an option for engaement rings?

cheers--Sharon

 

[CharmyPoo]

Re: Any Qs / interest in China-HK market & engagement tradit

Hong Kong is very different from the rest of China. In Hong Kong, the white gown and veil is often worn in conjunction with the traditional chinese gown (chinese brides do the same in North America).

 

[sillysweetie]

Re: Any Qs / interest in China-HK market & engagement tradit

Hello I'm from Hong Kong, born and raised here, so I guess I may be able to shed some light over some of your questions about the engagement/wedding traditions in HK.

About the engagement and the e-ring:

1) From my personal observation, the proposal is almost always a surprise for the fiancee. I've never heard of the BF shopping with the GF for the engagement ring.
2) I would venture to say the average size is below half carat to a bit over a carat. Mine is a half carat and it's not small here (though I'd only call it the "proposal ring" and hubby still owes me a proper engagement ring, haha!) The largest I see on my friend is like a 1 carat, maybe a bit larget than that. And 1 carat is considered big here.
3) I guess not all people want colourless D-E-F here and jewelry chains (there are a few large chains here) also carry lower colours like M. Hubby told me he did compare various rings/diamonds before purchasing and the final contenders are an H and an M, though he finally picked the H. Maybe he was influenced by me that lower colours are totally acceptable and don't mean lower quality.
4) I've only seen diamond e-rings and yet to see one with coloured gem stones. I guess the majority purchase the ring in B&M rather than online, though I've seen Bluenile's ads online here and have seen reports on some local online vendors recently. I'm totaly open to online purchase and in fact purchased my half eternity wedding band from BGD. Hubby had some reservation initially but was open to it, though he chose to purchase the "proposal ring" locally since this is the only way to surprise me.

About the wedding:

1) All brides wear white wedding gowns on their wedding days here in HK (this doesn't apply to the Chinese mainland from my understanding). Most also wears the Chinese traditional "Qungua" (http://www.koonnamwah.com.hk/product_img.php?product_section=03&product_id=3&photoid=7) for the traditional rituals.
2) I won't say the weddings are western style. Some may be more westernised like mine which was a buffet lucheon. Most people still opt for Chinese style dinner banquet.
3) For wedding gifts, yes, we do exchange wedding rings during the ceremony. The w-bands are usually purchased by the couple together and are almost always matched.
3) I remember a thread about the e-ring and wedding costs. I was surprised that most people spent much more on e-rings than the wedding and how much cheaper (no offense) weddings are in the US. I guess weddings cost 20K-55K on average. My e-ring costed 3-4% of the total wedding expenses.

Wow, this is such long post. It's interesting to see how things work so differently on the other side of the globe. If you have any questions, feel free to ask and I'm happy to share my observations.

 

[sillysweetie]

Re: Any Qs / interest in China-HK market & engagement tradit

Btw, I guess many women here don't wear their e-rings all the time and reserve them for special occasions.

 

[John P]

Re: Any Qs / interest in China-HK market & engagement tradit

The following answers are from Yao and Julie; 29 and 28 years-old. They're both single and work in the jewelry business. Based in Shanghai, they are currently in Beijing for the show and do business across all parts of mainland China.

These answers are specific to large mainland cities - HK is different and will be answered in another installment.

DF's Question: See if you can find out the avg size HK vs China and how much they spent on Erings.

For non-wedding items the average diamond purchase is still below 0.30ct. This can be for a ring, a pendant, earrings or a combination of things, but 0.30ct (total weight) is often a maximum for a single purchase in the non-wedding category.

For an engagement ring in Shanghai the usual size may still be around 0.30ct but among white collar workers the "diamond dream" is becoming 1ct or larger. That is what girls want and for weddings a lot of girls now see 0.30ct as a minimum. The average has not grown to 1ct yet, but wedding diamonds around 0.50ct are becoming more and more common... Beijing is more extreme than Shanghai. Again, for white collar workers, the usual engagement diamond is also around 0.30 to 0.50 ct, but for big sizes there's no top limit due to more extreme wealth in this city. Yao described a situation a while back where a lady walked into Harry Winston and casually dropped 30,000,000 RMB (4.7m USD) for a diamond.

It's very hard to identify the "average" budget: Among white collar workers perhaps 20,000 or 30,000 RMB (3000-4700 USD) has become average in large city areas like Beijing and Shanghai. And in some cases the budget could run up to 100,000 RMB (15,000 USD) or more but it's all according to circumstances... And remember this is for those who are participating in modern, empowered diamond-engagement-buying. Among non-white collar workers and once you go outside of large population centers such a budget is not the case. Means are much lower and in many cases the couple don't even buy a diamond, just a gold ring for the lady.

DD's Question: I would be interested to know what colors and clarity are most popular. We always hear it is D VVS so I wonder if that is changing at all.

It's very diversified. It used to be all-VVS around 15 years ago. Then VS came into the picture and now you will frequently see SI1 and SI2 if the jeweler can demonstrate that the diamond is eye-clean. People buying diamonds of SI2 clarity will often want a high color grade (DEF) or a larger size; something over 1ct or over 2ct so it's a very white or very big stone to "show off."

DD's Question: I would also be interested to know how marketing/advertising of diamonds might differ than in N/Am.

John's comment: I will come back to this after I've looked around for a few days and interfaced with folks who are familiar with western advertising.

DS's Question: If they are adopting western engagement traditions, are they doing western style weddings with the white dress and veil?

Yes, very much so. However Chinese people don't go to the church to get married. Most weddings are done in hotels or restaurants. The main staple of the ceremony is the meal and the wedding is like a public performance featuring the couple and a host. Couples hire an agent who coordinates procedures, flowers, music, the meal etc. It is usually very non-religious. Some couples do wish to be married in the church but there are strict regulations by churches prohibiting non-religious people, so those weddings are smaller and may be followed by the meal at a restaurant or hotel. Really, the Chinese copy western styles but they're not concerned with the meaning behind it. They just like it to look western.

MGR's Question: I too would be very interested to know what color/clarity/size they are pursuing most. Would be interesting to see if with super sharp cuts they are beginning to accept lower colors in their stones.

In short, no. Color and clarity are still the priority.

John's comment: Unlike the USA, the very recent growth here means the Chinese have always been "protected" by a cut grade. Consumers are aware of cut and actively seek it out much as they do color and clarity. "EX" is somewhat compulsory and "VG" is seen as a compromise (along the lines of going to SI in clarity...the onus is on the jeweler to demonstrate that the compromise is not too great...or to offset slightly lesser cut with an extremely white or large diamond). "H&A" diamonds which are plentiful in the better jewelry stores are positioned in terms of cut-desirability as colorless and VVS diamonds are in terms of color/clarity-desirability. For more than 70 years in the west the GIA did not include a cut grade so many USA jewelers are still coming to grips with improving cut quality and cut education in their stores. China skipped that 70 years of "non-cut-awareness." As a result, when it comes to sizes 0.50ct plus, the goods in China are of higher overall cut-quality on average than goods in the USA.

Canuk Gal's Question: Do the bride and groom exchange engagement/wedding jewellery gifts?

Yes. This happens at the wedding ceremony in front of all of the guests.

Canuk Gal's Question: Who picks out the ring/jewellery--do parents, or couples? Is a "surprsie" (aka fiancee) a big element of the engagment process?

One big difference from the west is that in China young couples often agree that they are to be married and then they go and buy the ring together. They discuss a budget (for example 30,000 RMB). Then they apply that budget to all the jewelry for the wedding. It might be for the engagement ring only...or for a e-ring and a band and the groom's ring, etc.

Julie says one of her friends recently proposed using a ring without a diamond. Then he and she went to find the diamond and his band together. Similary, when some of Yao's friends decided to get married they did all of the research and purchased the e-ring together. Only after that did they set a date and went out and he made his proposal. So it was not a surprise at all, it become more a project they did together and the proposal afterwards made it official.

Canuk Gal's Question: Is face to face shopping for rings important--or are people open to online purchasing?

Both. Purchases online are growing slowly but the online concept is quite different than in the USA. People look online but consummate the purchase in "experience stores."

John's comment: See this article I penned some time ago for more details about this... I will look around with fresh eyes and ears in the next days - and I have time aside to visit with some of their internet dealers - and update as appropriate.

Full article: http://www.idexonline.com/portal_FullMazalUbracha.asp?id=33652

"Chinese buyers, on the whole, are not yet ready to make the leap to buying-without-seeing. Few people complete transactions from afar. Instead, online shoppers identify diamonds they would like to see from basic lists (sometimes with a posted grading report), but the actual purchase is made at an “experience store” where the client views diamonds he has selected from a list and makes a live selection.

"Many consumers in America read internet discussion forums to get diamond-buying advice. Pricescope.com, Diamond Chit-Chat and Diamond Review are popular U.S. sites, with Pricescope the runaway leader, attracting over 350,000 unique visitors per month. Meanwhile there are thousands of consumer discussion boards in China, serving the growing internet population in their own language. While some Chinese participate on western websites the online Chinese market has grown in a largely self-contained manner, and it lacks the depth of the American market. The cyber-purchasing phenomenon in China will continue to grow, but fundamental differences in the online diamond buying process will limit the number of sight-unseen purchases."

More later. The day is done and it's time for a night on the town.

Cheers,

 

[AprilBaby]

Re: Any Qs / interest in China-HK market & engagement tradit

Thanks John! You always have. The most interesting articles!!!

 

[rhr75]

Re: Any Qs / interest in China-HK market & engagement tradit

Why are wedding bands SO much cheaper in China? We bought our bands for 50% off what would have been the cheapest possible in the US. Our bands are PT950 and have some style/design to them. The only two things I can think of are that they weigh the bands and calculate based off the spot price and that labor is cheap so not much premium to charge for workmanship.

 

[kenny]

Re: Any Qs / interest in China-HK market & engagement tradit

I believe diamonds are much more expensive in Australia.

Are diamonds for sale in China priced similarly to USA?

 

[Karl_K]

Re: Any Qs / interest in China-HK market & engagement tradit

What percentage of the e-rings are set in yellow gold, white gold, plat?
What k/alloys are most popular in diamond rings? Bands?

 

[Karl_K]

Re: Any Qs / interest in China-HK market & engagement tradit

% of the market that is rounds, princess, other fancies.
Are step cuts more or less common than in the US?

In general is there more desire to be different, or to have what others in the their group has for an e-ring?

 

[John P]

Re: Any Qs / interest in China-HK market & engagement tradit

Thanks John! You always have. The most interesting articles!!!

You're welcome AB! I've been describing aspects of "our" (PS) culture of online purchasing to colleagues here. There is no familiarity with performance-reflectors in Asia and nothing like the HCA to generate basic discussion beyond posted grading reports, which are plentiful. As a result there isn't a complete process for true "online" sales. Instead clients select several diamonds from one of the big online sellers and then make an appointment at one of that seller's "experience stores" in large cities to view and select from their final candidates.

Today I'm speaking at the conference. My presentation (which is translated as I go), the audience Q&A and the press meeting afterwards are scheduled to last four-hours total. I gave this presentation in Shanghai in June, starting at 1PM, and we did not finish until close to 6PM (!) I took my vitamins and an extra shot of espresso today. Send me in, coach.

 

[CharmyPoo]

Re: Any Qs / interest in China-HK market & engagement tradit

3) I remember a thread about the e-ring and wedding costs. I was surprised that most people spent much more on e-rings than the wedding and how much cheaper (no offense) weddings are in the US. I guess weddings cost 20K-55K on average. My e-ring costed 3-4% of the total wedding expenses.

Weddings are really not that cheap in North America. My wedding cost in the 6 digits because we went a bit crazy. Most of my friends spend between $40,000 - $60,000 on a wedding. There are others who choose to spend much less. This is the same in Hong Kong - big fancy hotel = more expensive. Cheap restaurant = cheaper.

I find weddings in North America can easily be much more expensive because more people are willing to do unique weddings outside of traditional venues. Further, invitations, flowers, labor etc all cost more in North America. This is why so many asian brides actually order their invitations and wedding favors from Hong Kong!

 

[CharmyPoo]

Re: Any Qs / interest in China-HK market & engagement tradit

Thanks John for sharing. The answers are really interesting!!

 

[John P]

Re: Any Qs / interest in China-HK market & engagement tradit

Happy Thanksgiving wishes to my fellow Americans!
In the absence of a turkey I celebrated with some delicious Peking Duck.

 

[John P]

Re: Any Qs / interest in China-HK market & engagement tradit

Here are more answers from Yao and Julie; 29 and 28 years old, involved in the trade in China.

*

Karl_K's Question: What percentage of the e-rings are set in yellow gold, white gold, plat?

Yellow gold is not popular at all. White gold and platinum are chosen by nearly everyone. Platinum is most popular and if there is a choice between platinum and gold people will most often go for the platinum. But many companies are using white gold only for some of choices and people will accommodate that if they want the setting. Many people also have the belief that white gold is a better choice for an elaborate setting because the metal is harder.

Karl_K's Question: What k/alloys are most popular in diamond rings? Bands?

The most successful market for platinum, historically, is China, so there is strong precedent here and people traditionally still choose platinum as their default. The alloy most Chinese people own is platinum 950. But these days salespeople are really pushing 18k white gold, using the argument that it is harder. As a result more people than before are going with it.

Karl_K's Question: % of the market that is rounds, princess, other fancies?

The round brilliant overwhelms everything else. At least 95%. The princess still has a percentage but maybe only 2%. The other fancy shapes and many hundreds of proprietary cuts make up the final 2-3%. But having even a small part of one percent is a big deal to diamond makers because so many diamonds are being sold now. So a proprietary cut considered to be a wild success in China without gaining a notable % of the total market. New and interesting cuts are definitely gaining popularity: Montblanc, Leo, Swana and such diamonds that come with a story behind their design appeal to new-thinking people and people with means who already own a RB diamond.

Karl_K's Question: Are step cuts more or less common than in the US?

Emeralds are sold but represent less than 1%. Asschers have no presence here.

Karl_K's Question: In general is there more desire to be different, or to have what others in the their group has for an e-ring?

People usually go with the flow. But sometimes it may be different according to income level. A person who already owns a diamond ring and is looking for more pieces may wish to go against normal conventions just to be different. So if a girl has one diamond and only one diamond that diamond will almost always be a round brilliant in a traditional setting. But when someone has the means to buy more they may wish to become a trendsetter in those additional purchases. Many second diamonds are a princess cut which will stand apart from the round they already own. Or a heart shape. Heart shapes are enjoying some popularity here right now.

rhr75's Question: Why are wedding bands SO much cheaper in China? We bought our bands for 50% off what would have been the cheapest possible in the US. Our bands are PT950 and have some style/design to them. The only two things I can think of are that they weigh the bands and calculate based off the spot price and that labor is cheap so not much premium to charge for workmanship.

John's comment: Julie and Yao did not have explanations ready since they are not aware of US prices. I explored your comment and it's a good observation, rhr. Settings do tend to be less expensive, particularly in platinum. I'll chase down answers as I continue my travels this week. Great question.

kenny's Question: I believe diamonds are much more expensive in Australia. Are diamonds for sale in China priced similarly to USA?

John's comment: Yes and no. There are different markets here with different price-points, just as in the USA. Bear in mind that the entry level markets serving the vast majority of the population (over 90%) don't even sell loose diamonds or diamonds over 0.25ct.... But when it comes to areas where people have the means to purchase engagement diamonds there are levels within levels, just as in the USA. Some Chinese are willing to pay much more for service, added benefits and the luxury "experience" just as some westerners are. Well-known western brands such as Louis Vuitton, Hermes and Montblanc have launched diamond jewelery lines here and charge big markups, trading on their name-recognition. Two of the most prestigious jewelry stores are Chao Tai Fook and Chao Sang Sang, which have (arguably) the highest quality loose goods, also along with notable markups. The Chinese internet-experience-stores which sell loose diamonds are the most price-competitive in general. As in the USA China's bricks & mortar stores have had to make adjustments to price-compete with the internet models.

I gathered some pricing info from the internet here and it is not enormously different than the USA. It does differ in some logical ways related to class and category. For example, half-carat loose diamonds (Ex/Ideal, strictly graded) are somewhat more expensive here than in the USA, which is logical because that is the most popular class & category here. Meanwhile diamonds at 1.00ct and 2.00ct are slightly less expensive than their USA counterparts; which may entice buyers to pay a bit extra in order to gain more size.

This was a quick-glance in only one city however. I'll gather more info and visit this subject again.


Many thanks to my friends Julie Shao and Yao Yuan for taking time to answer your questions.

 

[John P]

Re: Any Qs / interest in China-HK market & engagement tradit

Thanks John for sharing. The answers are really interesting!!

My pleasure Charmy Poo. I've already received more answers to the above from another source in Beijing, which I'll organize later. If anyone else has questions or comments to add fire away!

Now I'm in Hong Kong for a weekend of business, pleasure, fine dining and reliably awesome live jazz.

Cheers,

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: Any Qs / interest in China-HK market & engagement tradit

thanks JP..

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: Any Qs / interest in China-HK market & engagement tradit

Thanks John for sharing. The answers are really interesting!!

My pleasure Charmy Poo. I've already received more answers to the above from another source in Beijing, which I'll organize later. If anyone else has questions or comments to add fire away!

Now I'm in Hong Kong for a weekend of business, pleasure, fine dining and reliably awesome live jazz.

Cheers,

i miss those junk foods...

 

[Unknown]

Re: Any Qs / interest in China-HK market & engagement tradit

Loose diamond price is higher in China than in US, but the setting/wedding band are much cheaper because the labour cost is very low.
I have an example which I just got from a friend in shanghai yesterday, quote of a 1ct/G/VS2/3EX round diamond is 6.5K RMB and a platinum classic Tiffany style 4-prong solitaire setting is 1K RMB from a local reputable vendor.

 

[John P]

Re: Any Qs / interest in China-HK market & engagement tradit

Happy 2012 to all.

I've had this information to post for a while. I'm happy to finally get to it post-holidays.

People were asking how much diamonds retail for in China right now. As with anyplace, there is a pretty wide range depending on factors such as grading, quality and the market in which the diamond is offered. I gathered the data below at the end of November in Shanghai:

0.50 ct H VVS1 RB: GIA EX/IGI HK Ideal
Internet Experience, appx ¥ 16,800-21,800 ($2650-3460)
Affluent Retail, appx ¥ 30,500 ($4840 )

0.50 ct D VS2 RB: GIA EX/IGI HK Ideal
Internet Experience, appx ¥ 17,000-23,500 ($2700-3700)
Affluent Retail, appx ¥ 39,000 ($6185)

1.00 ct I VS1 RB: GIA EX/IGI HK Ideal
Internet Experience, appx ¥ 58,000-66,700 ($9200-10,600)
Affluent Retail, appx ¥ 94,000 ($14,900)

1.10 ct J SI1 RB: GIA EX/IGI HK Ideal
Internet Experience, appx ¥ 37,900-56,000* ($6000-8900)
Affluent Retail, appx ¥ 85,000** ($13,500)

* Wider range because eye-clean is unknown for internet options without making an appointment (which I didn't).
** Verified eye-clean in-person.

Obviously this sample size is so minute it has no hard relevancy, but it may be interesting to folks keeping their eye on economic trends on that side of the world.

 

[John P]

Re: Any Qs / interest in China-HK market & engagement tradit

Loose diamond price is higher in China than in US, but the setting/wedding band are much cheaper because the labour cost is very low. I have an example which I just got from a friend in shanghai yesterday, quote of a 1ct/G/VS2/3EX round diamond is 6.5K RMB and a platinum classic Tiffany style 4-prong solitaire setting is 1K RMB from a local reputable vendor.

True. As of the end of November the formula was cited to be the price of 18K (about ¥ 410/g then) x the weight of the mounting set + a fabrication fee (which I am told normally runs between ¥ 0-600).

 

[MissGotRocks]

Re: Any Qs / interest in China-HK market & engagement tradit

John thanks for presenting those questions for us. We've been told that their interest in diamonds affects our diamond prices so as points of interest it is nice to hear about their preferences and dislikes.

Your courtesy and professionalism is always appreciated!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Re: Any Qs / interest in China-HK market & engagement tradit

Yes, very interesting, John! Thanks!

 

[Enerchi]

Re: Any Qs / interest in China-HK market & engagement tradit

Very interesting opportunity you are having! Thank you for posting this thread and providing insight. I'm enjoying the read! Keep it coming...