Any New Yorkers want to help me look at stones?

[yennyfire]

Hi all,

I am planning to fly up to NYC on 9/22 to look at stones to replace the one that's currently in my ring. I would really appreciate a pair (or two!) of educated eyes, not to mention someone who's not emotionally invested in my selection. I'll be in the city for a few days. My ideal plan would be to select the stone on 9/22 or 9/23 and then beg Leon to to take me back (I originally decided not to go with Leon b/c I was nervous about selecting a setting without being able to try it on and see if I liked the way it looked on my finger). I've definitely gotten over that and would give my firstborn for a Leon setting, maybe a little sister to Bebe's stunning ring.

Is anyone willing/able to come with me to the jewelry shop (and to Leon's if you'd like to go)? I haven't scheduled any appt. yet, so I could do it at your convenience/availability. There's a long story behind all of this, which I'll be happy to share with you offline, just so you understand what's going on and why I desperately want a 2nd pair of eyes with me.

Many thanks from the bottom of my heart to anyone who considers helping a PS newbie out...

 

[yennyfire]

I didn't think I'd have any offers, lol! I know that it's a lot to ask, but I had to try since I'm terrified that I'll get taken advantage of again. If anyone changes their mind, I promise that the final decision is mine...no pressure on you...just an opinion.

 

[Andelain]

Was your other 'situation' ever resolved?

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

I didn't think I'd have any offers, lol! I know that it's a lot to ask, but I had to try since I'm terrified that I'll get taken advantage of again. If anyone changes their mind, I promise that the final decision is mine...no pressure on you...just an opinion.

Are you restricted to "the" previous vendor or from anyone? If anyone I bet we could do the selection from here and save you the trouble of a trip especially since some PS vendors will send a stone to a trusted appraisor without proper insurance in your area.

 

[jgny]

Yenny, if I were still in NYC, I'd totally go with you. I know that doesn't help IRL, though.

You should consider buying an Idealscope/ASET to bring with you. I have the whole kit, light, tweezers, idealscope, aset and they have certainly helped me in looking at diamonds.

http://www.ideal-scope.com/cart_order.asp

Also, when you are there, you can take pics of the diamond's is and aset images, but you'll need to practice beforehand. If you get the kit with the CZ you can do that. Some diamonds I have previous looked at, I was able to get some IS and ASET images and post to the board. They weren't perfect, but good enough for getting input from fellow PSers. See these 2 threads for examples.

https://www.pricescope.com/communit...eep-from-freaking-out-hca-fair-thread.133845/

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/thoughts-on-this-cushion-is-image.143127/

It sounds like you still have to buy from the original seller??? Just remember to take your time and not to feel pressured, OK???

 

[jgny]

CCL - your comment made me think that perhaps Yenny should check and see if the vendor can bring in specific stones that she sees on the virtual database - them maybe some of us PSers can help narrow down to some options that she can have the vendor bring in. Yenny - you are still looking for a radiant cut, right?

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

CCL - your comment made me think that perhaps Yenny should check and see if the vendor can bring in specific stones that she sees on the virtual database - them maybe some of us PSers can help narrow down to some options that she can have the vendor bring in. Yenny - you are still looking for a radiant cut, right?

If its a radiant I suggest an Original Radiant Cut from http://www.radiantcut.com/SearchDirect.aspx to be as safe as possible to get a well cut stone.

If its a cushion I would be happy to help if I knew the budget and preferred specs again.

 

[kenny]

Just buy from a PS vendor.

You'll most likely get a better stone for less.

 

[missydebby]

wish I could go, just at least to provide moral support and tons of coffee. But alas, I be in Holland ...

 

[yennyfire]

Thanks for your replies. Sadly, at this time I do have to use the same vendor. Since they supposedly cut their own rough, I cannot search through the virtual inventory and then ask to see specific stones. All I can do is give them my requirements and see what they have in their own inventory. You see why I'm so nervous?

Jgny, thanks for saying that you'd be willing to go with me if you were local, I appreciate it! MissDebby, thanks for the support from overseas!

At this point, I've told them I want to exchange the entire ring so that I'm not stuck looking only at stones that will fit in the existing setting. I think that will give me more flexibility so that I can get the best stone possible. I've told them that I'll look at cushions (which is still my first choice), radiants and round. I plan to use my entire "credit" to get the best stone that I can and then make an appt. with Leon.

I've been doing some homework on prices for stones with the specs I gave them, with the understanding that rounds are more expensive than fancy shapes for the same size/specs. However, I know I WAY overpaid for the stone that I got and I want to make sure that I get a stone that is "worth" the money we gave them.

 

[septsparkle]

As much as it sucks to have to "settle". You may want to go with a round stone it's so much easier to gauge the cut and know what you are getting. Atleast, you can print the AGA chart, or bring your own personal specs with you on proportions for an Ideal cut and then if the stone meets those parameters you can choose with your eyes. Bring a magnifying glass if you can. It will help you determine where the inclusions are and then once you know where they are you can make sure it will be eye clean to your standards. Also, I'd bring a list of stones for sale that meet your specs and their prices so you know he's not jacking up the price to an unreasonable number either...

I used to live in NY. I can be a tough cookie when shopping...always do great at car purchases, etc. but unfortunately I don't live there anymore and am not knowledgeable enough to help you diamond shop in person. I wish I was still there just to give you moral support though!

Do your homework....and bring it with you in a folder. Let him know you know what you are talking about this time and don't settle!

 

[jgny]

Yenny - sorry to hear that you have to work with the same vendor

Definitely get a loupe and be familiar with it (do a lot of practicing), I also like the ideal light in my previous link, the stone rests nicely on top of the hole and the lighting is even. If you can order before you go and practice looking, it is well worth the money for the set.

If not, I think there is a showroom in the Diamond District, Kassoy's, where you can purchase a loop:

http://www.kassoy.com/pages.php?pageid=13&mode=preview

I second the thought to focus on looking for a round as they are easier to "judge" - however, if your heart is set on a fancier shape, then do as much research as you can on them

As someone who has been looking for her perfect cushion (and still has not found it yet) - cushions are quite a challenge!

I don't know anything about radiants, sorry

 

[septsparkle]

Ah, yes if you can buy a loupe in time for your trip and can practice that would be much better! Or if they have a microscope available and will let you use it to view stones, that would be ideal, too.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Thanks for your replies. Sadly, at this time I do have to use the same vendor. Since they supposedly cut their own rough, I cannot search through the virtual inventory and then ask to see specific stones. All I can do is give them my requirements and see what they have in their own inventory. You see why I'm so nervous?

Jgny, thanks for saying that you'd be willing to go with me if you were local, I appreciate it! MissDebby, thanks for the support from overseas!

At this point, I've told them I want to exchange the entire ring so that I'm not stuck looking only at stones that will fit in the existing setting. I think that will give me more flexibility so that I can get the best stone possible. I've told them that I'll look at cushions (which is still my first choice), radiants and round. I plan to use my entire "credit" to get the best stone that I can and then make an appt. with Leon.

I've been doing some homework on prices for stones with the specs I gave them, with the understanding that rounds are more expensive than fancy shapes for the same size/specs. However, I know I WAY overpaid for the stone that I got and I want to make sure that I get a stone that is "worth" the money we gave them.

Yennyfire,

I don't like the solution they have given you, did you at least get it in a written letter? How can you be sure this isn't another stall tactic? Have they agreed to apply the full purchase price (setting + ring) towards a diamond in writing?

Also still they won't provide a picture, or ASET, or Idealscope.

I think you must do all the selection beforehand don't leave it to them or wait till you arrive.
Choosing a round by the numbers is difficult to "guess", choosing a fancy by the numbers(if you want a cushion) is more difficult, but given the past it sounds like you have determined this is your best course of action.

I would be happy to help you in this search, what I would probably do is show them an exact stone you want from an online vendor and this will let them know they can't try to overcharge you. Both raising clarity, and getting a better cut will cost you in size which are tradeoffs I hope are okay with you.

If you post your budget and preferences again (was it $37,000 including the setting? G Color?) we can point you to some virtual stone choices, and fingers crossed "magically" their suppliers will have the same stone. I would do all of this before you even arrive and there are some safer ranges for fancy shapes you should consider.

 

[kenny]

Yeah if I was stuck buying from one vendor I'd ABSOLUTELY get a round.
It is by far the easiest shape when it comes to identifying a well-cut one.
They are also the most sparkly, but only if well-cut.

First, I'd tell them I'd only consider stones with GIA or AGS reports.

I'd bring my laptop in with a wireless connection so I could plug the specs into the HCA https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca

I'd also carry in an Idealscope. https://www.pricescope.com/tools/ideal-scope

I'd be prepared for their hissy fit, which would land on my deaf ears.
I'd also be prepared for the fact that they are not likely to have anything cut well enough and will have to return in the future after they get a cut education from this arrogant high-rolling customer out to take over the gem world.

If you do all this you don't need any of us to be with you.
I wish you all the best on this.

 

[yennyfire]

Thanks for the replies and links to purchase a loupe and idealscope. Silly question. Does the idealscope apply to fancy cut stones or are they just for rounds?

While I know that rounds are somewhat safer in that there are much more cut/dry ways to evaluate the stone, I really have my heart set on a cushion (or possibly a radiant...I've never looked at them before). I really don't want to have to settle on the shape if I can avoid it. Here are the specs I gave them:

GIA/AGS
G-H color
SI1 clarity (totally eye clean) though I've also asked to see all VS2 stones, as this may be a "safer" way to ensure eye cleanliness
Size: as large as possible within my budget, assuming that all of my requirements are met (i.e. I'm not willing to sacrafice cut for size)
Excellent cut
VG Symmetry/Polish
No (or very faint) flour.

I also gave them additional requirements for the cushion (i.e. table % less than depth%, 8 mains, etc.)


Thanks Kenny. I am definitely bringing my laptop with me (as well as the loupe and idealscope) and will have printouts of stones that are worth $32K. I also want to be able to pull them up online in case they somehow think I've "doctored" the papers.

CCL, my originaly budget was $35K. I spent $32K on the setting and the stone. I am planning to spend that 32K on the stone and get the setting elsewhere (hopefully with Leon). I'm not giving this company another penny of my money. It would definitely be helpful to see what $32K *should* get me and I'd appreciate any stones you find that I can use as examples, thank you!

 

[yennyfire]

BTW, the only thing that they put in writing was that I could "upgrade" my stone at any time....ummm, yeah, that's not what you told me on the phone the 6 times I spoke with them.

If they try anything other than showing me stones that meet my criteria and are reasonably priced (by PS vendor standards), they are in for a battle of epic proportions. I plan to be very loud and vocal so that any customers in their store hear how they do business. I am not leaving until I have a stone that I am happy with.

Hopefully, if the cert. (GIA or AGS) has the specs I want, it will be a jumping off point to know that the stone is decent.

 

[kenny]

Thanks for the replies and links to purchase a loupe and idealscope. Silly question. Does the idealscope apply to fancy cut stones or are they just for rounds?

I think Idealscope is adequate for rounds but for other shapes I'd also bring an ASET scope. http://www.ideal-scope.com/1.using_ASET_scope.asp

The HCA only works for rounds.

 

[kenny]

BTW, the only thing that they put in writing was that I could "upgrade" my stone at any time....ummm, yeah, that's not what you told me on the phone the 6 times I spoke with them.

If they try anything other than showing me stones that meet my criteria and are reasonably priced (by PS vendor standards), they are in for a battle of epic proportions. I plan to be very loud and vocal so that any customers in their store hear how they do business. I am not leaving until I have a stone that I am happy with.

Hopefully, if the cert. (GIA or AGS) has the specs I want, it will be a jumping off point to know that the stone is decent.

I do not think it is realistic to expect a B&M to match the quality and prices of PS vendors, especially if your B&M is in an expensive part of New York, especially since you have already weakened your negotiating position by buying from them knowing what they sell and that they have no refund policy.

You may want to go in prepared with some percentage in your head to add to the PS price.
I hope posters here will help you arrive at a "fair" number - perhaps 20%????

So if the PS price was 30K you'd pay 36K at this B&M.

What do you guys think is 20% too high? too low?

Also keep in mind if the price difference is high enough (because yours is a high-profile B&M on Park Ave.) you may do better to just negotiate a refund of part of what you paid and take that to a PS vendor.
It all depends on the numbers, not on winning an arm wrestling match with your B&M.
I'd keep this unemotional and just run the numbers.

 

[yennyfire]

Kenny,

This jeweler isn't on Park Ave, they are on 47th street and are not, IMO, a high end store (as compared with a Tiffany or HW for example). Additionally, they cut their own stones, so I'd imagine that there prices should be better than a vendor who purchases their stones from someone else. Either way, I've been looking on Blue Nile, Solomon Bros, etc. to get some idea of what $32K could purchase. I realize that they have me at somewhat of a disadvantage, but I'm planning on being such a thorn in their side that they'll give me a good stone at a fair price just to get rid of me. I'm planning on camping out there with my two kids (ages 3 and 5) until I get what I want (I'm packing a little suitcase full of toys and snacks to keep them occupied, though honestly, if they were bored and created a little havoc, it might help them want to get rid of me faster, lol).

 

[yennyfire]

Jgny, I need a little more help. I went to the link you included to purchase an idealscope and it looks like there are quite a few available. Which one do I need/want? Thanks (again!) for your help!

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Yennyfire,

I have to shake my head at the whole thing, I want to help you, but I think you are setting yourself up for major disappointment. It sounds like they have agreed to nothing. How much will it cost you to fly and take taxis in New York?, if only to see what limited choices they have for you. I really hope you got proper legal advice from a lawyer and your credit company and they strongly advised you to settle in this way. We prefer to judge fancy shapes by an ASET not an Idealscope, if you are going once and will choose the best they have your eyes would be the best judge(take the diamond outside as well this time!).

That being said to maximize your chances of a postivie find we need to know how they will work with you. They need to send you certificates or report numbers of potential choices which can be looked at on GIA's report check.

1) Will they even send you the GIA reports of potential choices by email beforehand?
If not, there is no point in trying to guess at anythign you are totally at their mercy and when you arrive may be in for quite a shock.

2) Have they even agreed to allow you to apply 32k in value towards a diamond? (As in eat the cost of the setting?)
3) If you tell them you want a grading report that says Cushion Brilliant and has an 8 main pavilion will they even know and be able to accomodate this?

Before anyone can advise you those questions need to be answered. I can get into the cut of your old diamond and your preferences after but your original was not an 8 main cushion brilliant and those are more expensive per carat than the diamond you had.

 

[yennyfire]

CCL, they do not do ASET or Idealscope images. They have agreed to let me credit the $32K towards a new stone (verbally). I do not know if they will give me the GIA report numbers ahead of time so that I can seek advice here. I am screwed and I know it (I guess because they took a stone and inserted it in a setting, that is considered "custom" which has a "no return" policy and does not fall into the 7 day return policy). I realize that these are not close to ideal circumstances, but it's what I have to work with, which is why I was hoping someone would be willing to help me come out of this less crushed than I am right now. I have never felt so low about anything in my life. The weight is paralyzing me and causing major stress with hubby. I'm ready to just throw the darn thing out the window for someone to find.

 

[RedRobbin]

Did you lose the cc dispute?? If not, then why not wait until you get the outcome? I'm going to assume that they never put in writing that they were no longer giving you a seven day return period based on the ring customization. If they didn't then shouldn't you win the dispute? If you are set on going this direction though, probably you should at least take the diamond outside of the store and look at it on the street in natural daylight before you agree to buy it.

 

[yennyfire]

RedRobbin, I have not lost the cc dispute, but I did call and speak with the manager of the dispute dept. (since it was for such a large amount, I was able to speak with her) and she said that, in her opinion, I would not win the dispute, since the argument could be made that setting the stone in the setting made it a custom piece, and the return policy states that there are no returns on custom pieces. Her advice to me was to go up there and see if I could find a stone that I was happy with. If I am unable to do so, then I can re-open the dispute, with the understanding that I will most likely not win. Then, I'm really screwed. So, I'm making every effort to resolve this with the company. Do I like it? Hell no. Will I do everything I can to make sure that future consumers know how this company does business?? You bet!

However, the thought of trying to consign the ring and lose $10-$15K on the deal makes me physically sick. We are not wealthy and to us, this is a MAJOR purchase...so, I'm trying this route first.

Luckily, hubby travels a lot (as did I when I worked outside of our home) and we have $500K airline points, so we are able use them for both airline and hotel rooms. The trip will cost us nothing other than meals, subway and museum passes (since the kids are coming with us and have never been to NY, we are planning on taking them to the Natural History Museum, etc.). They have a week off of school, so we are trying to turn it into a mini-vacation, though I realize that if things don't go as I'd like them to, I'll probably be ready to jump off of the Brooklyn Bridge, lol!

Anyway, that's the update on the saga...I hope to have a happy ending after 9/22.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

RedRobbin, I have not lost the cc dispute, but I did call and speak with the manager of the dispute dept. (since it was for such a large amount, I was able to speak with her) and she said that, in her opinion, I would not win the dispute, since the argument could be made that setting the stone in the setting made it a custom piece, and the return policy states that there are no returns on custom pieces. Her advice to me was to go up there and see if I could find a stone that I was happy with. If I am unable to do so, then I can re-open the dispute, with the understanding that I will most likely not win. Then, I'm really screwed. So, I'm making every effort to resolve this with the company. Do I like it? Hell no. Will I do everything I can to make sure that future consumers know how this company does business?? You bet!

However, the thought of trying to consign the ring and lose $10-$15K on the deal makes me physically sick. We are not wealthy and to us, this is a MAJOR purchase...so, I'm trying this route first.

Luckily, hubby travels a lot (as did I when I worked outside of our home) and we have $500K airline points, so we are able use them for both airline and hotel rooms. The trip will cost us nothing other than meals, subway and museum passes (since the kids are coming with us and have never been to NY, we are planning on taking them to the Natural History Museum, etc.). They have a week off of school, so we are trying to turn it into a mini-vacation, though I realize that if things don't go as I'd like them to, I'll probably be ready to jump off of the Brooklyn Bridge, lol!

Anyway, that's the update on the saga...I hope to have a happy ending after 9/22.

Well that makes things more clear you are minimizing damage control here to the best of your abilities.

Call up the vendor and find out what is available and if they will pull grading reports for you. If not I don't understand what are they are going to do? (Is it supposed to be a magical surprise you will show up and the stone will be perfect?)

At least it sounds like you will have an ASET handy and can snap some shots, and if you have to go back a second time I guess you will.
Really this requires going over carefully how much selection you have with them and asking some detailed questions.

 

[kenny]

The biggest problem is secret pricing. (I LOVE published prices on the Internet)

How will you know the diamond they present to you with a $32K tag would not have been presented to a new customer with a $26K tag?
You won't.

 

[slg47]

can I ask the stats on your current diamond? you may be better off just consigning and buying through a PS vendor...

also, so sorry to hear that you have to go through all of this!

 

[yellowcushionlover]

Hi Yenny,
I am coming out of lurking to let you know just how much my heart goes out to you in this situation. I read your other post and know that you are in a difficult situation that must be causing a tremendous amount of stress.
I would recommend writing a letter and putting everything in writing so there is no misunderstand as to what your expectations are for your trip in September (preferably on an attorneys letterhead). What happens if they bring out a bunch of stones that are not GIA or AGS certified? What happens then?
I am not sure if this is even possible...but wouldn't it be great if you could locate a local appraiser to go with you on your appointment to look at everything with you? I know there may be a cost, but it seems that in NY and with large investments on the line...it might be worth an inquiry to see if such a service exists.
If not, perhaps the retailer would be willing to have their best options that meet your criteria sent to an appraiser so you can know exactly what they will be offering you in light of the fact that they cannot offer pictures or videos in advance.
You are really at their mercy. Having an objective set of trained eyes could be a great asset. You deserve to be completely happy with the outcome. I would recommend to not go in alone. You need the support to make sure you are not forced to settle and leave totally happy.
It might be worth it to pursue a consultation with an attorney just to see if you have any legal grounds based on everything that has happened up to this point. The insight might be most valuable moving forward to be in a position of strength and not weakness.
Wishing you a very happy outcome!

 

[yennyfire]

The biggest problem is secret pricing. (I LOVE published prices on the Internet)

How will you know the diamond they present to you with a $32K tag would not have been presented to a new customer with a $26K tag?
You won't.

Kenny, you are entirely right, I won't know if I receive a price that is $5K higher than the last person to look at a stone, however, my hope is that if I'm armed with some really solid info about similar stones and their prices, I can at least use that to tell them that I won't be taken advantage of (ok, ok, I know that I've already been taken advantage of, please stop laughing)...

Yellowcushionlover, you are so sweet to come out of lurkdom with your support, thank you. Your suggestion is a good one, a really good one and would well be worth the investment.

Does anyone know of an appraiser in the NYC area who might be willing to come with me to look at stones? Even if it's a small % of the value of the final stone I get, it would be worth it to know that I'd gotten a good stone (hopefully a great stone) at a fair price.