Any appraisers in NYC that can measure light leakage?

[rogue]

Do you know of any appraisers in NYC that can measure light leakage via Idealscope, Gemex or other light measuring device? Not sure if the couple on the Pricescope list do. This is for a diamond that received a HCA score of 5.4 that I mentioned in a couple other threads. No time to buy Idealscope. Thoughts?

 

[pricescope]

David Wolf should have ideal scope (according to his profile in the appraiser list)

 

[rogue]

Interesting. I actually used Just Appraisers for a stone I ended up returning. Toby did a great job, but I do not recall him looking at my stone through an Idealscope. Maybe you need to request it specifically. They are good, but perhaps the most expensive in the city.

 

[Regular Guy]

Rogue, did you talk with them/ask them about light return or light leakage?

I think this is a shame.

Leonid...fyi...I had done the same search you didn''t need to do, because you created the appraiser resource, and was prepared to recommend the same appraiser. GIGO

Although you were more than supportive of this idea before, and may have been looking for more consensus than did develop, I think you should consider now going forward with doing some sort of either basic or detailed Pricescope Checklist that a consumer can require an appraiser to populate in advance of using them.

Despite the industry''s forward movement, well documented on this board, the appraisers are not keeping current with the needs their clients are getting ramped up about on here (Pricescope). Of course, they can refuse to do this homework (filling out the checklist). Also, they may "wrote" fill it out, but not comply to it. But, at that point, the customer, having presented it to the appraiser, and having gotten it back...can in good faith go to them before their session ends and say...we have not gone through these things you said you would do! If there is competition in the neighborhood, they will be able to differentiate themselves by complying with their customer''s request.

Unfortunately, although the client goes to the "doctor of diamonds" as an expert, and they may BE expert in some sets of knowledge concerning diamonds...the needs of the client, as they are educated about here, are too often not being met, and the proposed checklist would create the possibility of correcting this imbalance.

 

[rogue]

Regular Guy, no, for the stone Toby appraised a couple months ago, I did not ask about light return/leakage--now I know better for next time! I''m calling around to some recommended appraisers that Pricescopers like, but who are not on the Resources list, such as Robert Aretz and Justin Krall. Robert does not do light analysis, I''m waiting to hear back from Justin.

 

[Regular Guy]

Informally, I can tell you I think that although Justin has praise here, he was widely knocked in a long thread where his name was not used. His credentials, by way of the association(s) he was associated with, were brought into question. Accordingly, you see he is no longer listed here.

I''ll bet that someone can help me find this thread, if this might be useful.

 

[pricescope]

Date: 7/17/2006 11:40:46 AM
Author: Regular Guy

Although you were more than supportive of this idea before, and may have been looking for more consensus than did develop, I think you should consider now going forward with doing some sort of either basic or detailed Pricescope Checklist that a consumer can require an appraiser to populate in advance of using them.

Despite the industry''s forward movement, well documented on this board, the appraisers are not keeping current with the needs their clients are getting ramped up about on here (Pricescope). Of course, they can refuse to do this homework (filling out the checklist). Also, they may ''wrote'' fill it out, but not comply to it. But, at that point, the customer, having presented it to the appraiser, and having gotten it back...can in good faith go to them before their session ends and say...we have not gone through these things you said you would do! If there is competition in the neighborhood, they will be able to differentiate themselves by complying with their customer''s request.

RG, not all in the industry including appraisers support/adopt tools we discuss here. Some of appraisers recommended here are actually quite critical about these tools and tell Pricescope visitors that say ideal-scope is rather a sales tool and their expert eyes are a better instrument.

Besides, appraiser''s job doesn''t require all these tools to perform an APPRAISAL. I can understand if they''ve got irritated when people insist about getting all this extra info.

There is some merit in this too because there are many good looking diamonds out there that will not pass pricescope crowd because of the numbers, photos, etc, while if priced correctly, can be a great buy.

So I don''t feel we are in position to tell appraisers or anybody else what information must be provided with diamonds or appraisals. Consumers should still do their homework and do what they feel comfortable.

I can be mistaken of course and don''t mind somebody correct me if I''m wrong

 

[rogue]

Date: 7/17/2006 11:58:10 AM
Author: Regular Guy
Informally, I can tell you I think that although Justin has praise here, he was widely knocked in a long thread where his name was not used. His credentials, by way of the association(s) he was associated with, were brought into question. Accordingly, you see he is no longer listed here.

I''ll bet that someone can help me find this thread, if this might be useful.

I think I know exactly the thread you are talking about. I read it and wondered who it was. Sigh. Do you think there''s any diamond retailer that will let me borrow an idealscope and some tweezers for 5 minutes?

 

[Regular Guy]

Well...I''m not suggesting we get into name calling. For that matter, we can even divorce ourselves from proclaiming we see the world accurately. As you say...

Date: 7/17/2006 11:58:51 AM
Author: Pricescope
There is some merit in this too because there are many good looking diamonds out there that will not pass pricescope crowd because of the numbers, photos, etc, while if priced correctly, can be a great buy.

So, the checklist can only be for the subjective use of this Pricescope crowd. If the appraiser we approach doesn''t help with some or all (a checklist might allow for a) some or b) all the things a Prisceoper would like to see), they are not bad people...just not for us. So...

So I don''t feel we are in position to tell appraisers or anybody else what information must be provided with diamonds or appraisals. Consumers should still do their homework and do what they feel comfortable.

Assistance with doing the homework, that the consumer must do, with the use of the proposed tool, is the idea here. We are seeing too often that "having the information" about what the appraiser can do is not enough. It is about helping empower the consumer to be a prosumer.

Although a) I think I''m really preaching to the choir, and b) understand the payoff to the administration is not clear, the idea remains reasonable, I think.

 

[scarlet16]

Date: 7/17/2006 11:58:10 AM
Author: Regular Guy
Informally, I can tell you I think that although Justin has praise here, he was widely knocked in a long thread where his name was not used. His credentials, by way of the association(s) he was associated with, were brought into question. Accordingly, you see he is no longer listed here.

I''ll bet that someone can help me find this thread, if this might be useful.

I''m curious about this thead...can someone help me locate it? I used Justin and was happy w/ his services, but now I wonder how valid the appraisal is....

 

[Regular Guy]

Scarlet,

I don''t know Justin or his practices...I''m more or less just reporting what I''ve observed here. I think this is probably the thread. If I''ve incorrectly associated it with him, I hope I''ll be corrected.

 

[rogue]

But Scarlet, I wouldn''t worry yourself about the appraisal after the fact. If he did a good job to you, you have a GIA/AGS cert to back up your stone, and everything seems reasonable, don''t let this trouble you - I have read many good things about him too.

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 7/17/2006 11:49:41 AM
Author: rogue
Regular Guy, no, for the stone Toby appraised a couple months ago, I did not ask about light return/leakage--now I know better for next time! I'm calling around to some recommended appraisers that Pricescopers like, but who are not on the Resources list, such as Robert Aretz and Justin Krall. Robert does not do light analysis, I'm waiting to hear back from Justin.

Rogue,

Then again, Toby (who I also don't know) is another thing. Using your link above, I've just read in his bio about his gift with showing the light performance of diamonds.

(reading further...edited to add...) ...the text says: "Proportion angles and critical measurements are fed into a light return software application that calculates light performance." Well...maybe this is just indirect, and not differentiated with what you could do without being in his office. Any of this come forward in your visit there? Obviously, some aspects of what he did were found helpful.

Then again, I think many appraisers are skillful in communicating something that makes their clients feel good. In DC metro, Martin Fuller enjoys an excellent reputation, but he does none of these things either, with respect to light performance. Unless they've changed.

 

[rogue]

Huh! I don''t think we did any of that in my visit! Maybe I had to ask for it? Maybe because my stone was mounted? Interesting...Toby is very nice and I recommend him if you can afford. I ended up returning my stone because I just couldn''t take the visible inclusions (and I had a number of other issues with the jeweler my wonderful but ignorant fiance dealt with). I just emailed him and asked to borrow their Idealscope; he is willing to let me do that. Excellent. Seeing this HCA 5.4 under the Idealscope could be very helpful -- so far, in the various lighting in my office building, I think I am able to discern some darkness in the table but would like to know for sure if there is a ring of death. I wonder if there is *any* chance a 5.4 would not have a ring of death...

 

[RockDoc]

If you want an analysis of light performance probably the most advanced methods are with using the following:

1. ASET Desktop and Presentation unit.

2. Gemex''s Brilliance Scope Analyzer and Viewer Instruments

3. AGS''s PGS software


Rockdoc

 

[rogue]

Are these standard programs that all appraisers use? I have two potential stones and am hoping to be able to eliminate a poor light performing stone without a full $200 appraisal, and then continuing with the full appraisal on the other stone--hopefully looking through an Idealscope will be sufficient.

 

[RockDoc]

Date: 7/17/2006 4:05:39 PM
Author: rogue
Are these standard programs that all appraisers use? I have two potential stones and am hoping to be able to eliminate a poor light performing stone without a full $200 appraisal, and then continuing with the full appraisal on the other stone--hopefully looking through an Idealscope will be sufficient.

The ASET instruments can be purchased by any appraiser or gemologist. So some do have them.

The AGS PGS software is only sold in its cut grading ability to AGS members. Appraisers that have this are rather limited.

The Gemex Brilliance Scope instruments is available by anyone who is willing to pay for them.

Ask the appraiser of your choice if he has these items.

Rockdoc

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 7/17/2006 4:00:34 PM
Author: RockDoc
If you want an analysis of light performance probably the most advanced methods are with using the following:

1. ASET Desktop and Presentation unit.

2. Gemex's Brilliance Scope Analyzer and Viewer Instruments

3. AGS's PGS software


Rockdoc

Well, there's one approach to working up a Checklist.

The yield is a universe of 1, but the effort is with merit.

I think Progressive Car insurance also offers you a strategy where you can use them and their criteria to base your purchase decision on. The proprietary nature of this approach leads you not to trust it, and in that realm, you have other options (to include, for example, Consumer Reports, in my area, Washington Checkbook, and possibly other things).

Also, there is the question of what do you have, and what do you use?

Other systems/resources certainly that could be on the list do include the idealscope, Diamondcalc, and Imagem, no doubt.

Still, and regardless of the elements of the list...having the actor as purchaser submitting the list for the appraiser's comment is the missing link that I'm supposing is critical...not just...do you have these things.

It's not just, what do you have...but what will you use...with me.

P.S. I do see that one other...possibly helpful strategy...would be just to cut & copy the existing parts of the text at the Appraiser Resources page here, send it in an e-mail to the prospective appraiser, and have them confirm for you the pieces you might want to confirm...or customize this sort of communication, at will.

 

[oldminer]

I know RockDOc is a proponent of the BrillianceScope, but you will find few appraisers who have one. The same holds true for ImaGem equipment. These things are costly and it takes a dedication to thyeir use which most appraisers simply do not have yet. As more people insist on using such tools, the more appraisers and the rest of the industry will consider adopting them.

An issue with ASET is the fact that diamonds of 2 carat may grade differently than diamonds of 1 carat cut both with identical parameters. It is a bug with a cure, but I am unaware of anyone doing anything about fixing it. Maybe RockDoc can tell us the status of this issue and how he gets around with the problem. It isn''t a major problem, but one of those things that will evnetually get rectified one hopes.

 

[RockDoc]

Date: 7/17/2006 7:25:09 PM
Author: oldminer
I know RockDOc is a proponent of the BrillianceScope, but you will find few appraisers who have one. The same holds true for ImaGem equipment. These things are costly and it takes a dedication to thyeir use which most appraisers simply do not have yet. As more people insist on using such tools, the more appraisers and the rest of the industry will consider adopting them.

An issue with ASET is the fact that diamonds of 2 carat may grade differently than diamonds of 1 carat cut both with identical parameters. It is a bug with a cure, but I am unaware of anyone doing anything about fixing it. Maybe RockDoc can tell us the status of this issue and how he gets around with the problem. It isn''t a major problem, but one of those things that will evnetually get rectified one hopes.

RE: ASET CUT GRADING

David, this just isn''t so. The Cut grading is done using proportions and light ray tracing which is a sort of more extended version of Diamond Calc, as I understand it.

To say that AGS cut grade would differ based on the size of the stone, the way it is done, is NOT factual.

The ASET "machine(s)" at this moment do have a size limitation, but I''ve had some pretty big stone in it, and so far it works. I even posted some of 2carat + stones on the ASET thread I posted some of the initial photos I was able to get using some.

Doubting the ASET technology also would be related to the Ideal Scope. The idealscope of sort of a portable "rendition" of the original Firescope. The Firescope technology with Al Gilbertson''s multicolor banding arrangement in it is what the ASET is. In all fairness, if you are going to criticize what the ASET does, you also should include Firescope and Ideal Scope in the critique too.

The PGS software has a sort of computer generated ASET image which is derived from the scan of the stone, but it is the scan and it''s relevant light tracing engine software that rates the grading ( provided a trained grader examines and rates the polish and symmetry manually).

As for my "support" of the Brilliance Scope, I believe it is good at what it does, and how it does it, is an open technology as opposed to alternative ones. Add to that the imaging of now over 1 million diamonds which have been researched, imaged and reports issued for. I do not have any ownership or stock in Gemex. I would and will be very open to comaring independently the Imagem, and the ISEE 2 neck and neck with it from a totally independent and unbiased stance.

I''ve asked both Imagem and ISEE 2 to provide these tools. ISEE 2 flatly refused unless I bought a monthly inventory of diamonds,even though they invited me to see the machine and IMAGEM completely ignored my request despite even requesting it through the website, as well as here on the forum. Gemex has really been the most open about what the machine does and how it operates, so in my opinion it has the most credibility.

If I didn''t feel Gemex provided useful and informative results, I''d send it back. But I haven''t. It is not just a mystery black box. The machine is constantly calibrated, the software in continually improved and it issues a report than just numbers in a relatively easy to understand method, which includes the animated images on the website.

In all that you''ve written about the Imagem, I''d still love to test what it does, how it compares in a fair "horse race" with anything else, including see how it would cut grade as compared to the AGS PGS software system.

I''ve seen some of the ISEE2 diamonds and they are quite nice, but I''d like to get to the "guts" of what it does as well.

Rockdoc

 

[RockDoc]

David.......

You have a response about the comments I made about ASET''s technology ?

Rockdoc

 

[Eva17]

Question regarding appraisal. Can light leakage, performance, etc. be done on a 4+ carat radiant? I am having it appriased next week. What should I ask the appraiser? I am having it done in NYC. Sounds like i will have trouble finding one with the equipment, and is it a concern with a radiant?

The whole light return thing, isn''t something many people talk about. It is all new to me.

Thanks!

 

[RockDoc]

Date: 7/20/2006 10:18:56 AM
Author: Eva17
Question regarding appraisal. Can light leakage, performance, etc. be done on a 4+ carat radiant? I am having it appriased next week. What should I ask the appraiser? I am having it done in NYC. Sounds like i will have trouble finding one with the equipment, and is it a concern with a radiant?

The whole light return thing, isn''t something many people talk about. It is all new to me.

Thanks!

What are the measurements of the 4 carat radiant?

Rockdoc