Another new one...

[Pandora II]

Hello All,

well, I''ve been reading for some time now and you all make me feel so much better!

Here''s my story:

I''m 34 and have been with bf, nearly 32, for just over 2 years.

I have had a few serious relationships in the past, have lived with 2 other guys for over a year and I was the one who left all previous relationships, including 2 where the guy wanted to marry me. I was very in love with the first one (7 years) but most of the others were "fun for now" relationships. I am now with the most wonderful man who I know is the person I want to spend the rest of my life with. I am his first proper girlfriend.

We met at a party during a very difficult time in my life, I had been very ill for 2 years, was living with my parents and waiting for a major operation. We started dating, seeing each other at weekends as I lived 2 hours away; then after 3 months he gave me the keys to his apartment and then after 5 months I moved in. This made a lot of sense as my surgeon and physio were in London and so I needed to be there a lot. Also I had the chance to do some voluntary work that would help me get back to a job, and I couldn''t afford my own place as London is so expensive. Above all, it just felt right and it was his decision to ask me.

Well, 2 years on and we are both nauseatingly in love with each other, are each other''s best friends and all our friends and families think we are totally made for each other.

So what''s the problem I hear you say???

So, he doesn''t "believe" in marriage.

He says I''m the one, and that he''d like to have kids in a few years, and that if he was into marriage he''d have married me after about 6 months.

My parents got engaged after 2 weeks and married after 6 months and 35 years later are still crazy about each other and have eyes for no-one else, so I have always had a great role model.

His got divorced when he was 14, I think it affected him very deeply as he is rather a sensitive soul even if he hides it well and he thinks marriage is a way for women to screw men over and male money. And anyway, why does he need a piece of paper to prove he loves me.

I''ve explained that for me it''s the emotional side not the financial. We both have good jobs and are financially secure. He even sold me half of our house earlier this year - totally his idea. As I own other family property, I am better off on paper than him, so a potential divorce would be in his favour not mine.

I also don''t believe in divorce. I won''t marry anyone I think it won''t work with. I have dated enough that I know exactly what i am looking for and can spot the alcoholics/womanisers/commitment phobics at 10 paces. Been there, bought many T-shirts.

As I used to be a jewellery designer and diamond buyer, he refuses to ever buy me jewellery as he says I know more about it, and can always get it cheaper. On the plus side I spend much time looking at gemstone **** openly in front of him.

I''ve decided to just act as if he wants to get married and have shown him the pics of rings I like, and said I think 2008 is a good year for the wedding. He just laughs at me (in a nice way) and says keep trying to persuade him.


To make things worse, his brother got engaged last month - I designed and had the ring made for them. (Beautiful 1.5ct F colour VS2 RB with pear shaped 0.35ct emerald side stone in a platinum setting - gorgeous and I got the stone for £1000 a ct below the Rap. in Antwerp) Luckily had had conversation with his gf about what we liked in rings about a month before he asked for my help. She''s american and I knew you girls tend to like larger stones than the Brits, and she had said she didn''t like anything above 1.5ct so I steered him towards what I knew she liked. Both were delighted in the end, and I''m painting up all the designs for them as a Christmas gift. The wedding is next year, so there is lots of that kind of talk about. Everyone asks us as we have been together longer. I just tell the truth - and so does he.

It''s easy with his family as they all say how happy he is now I''m there and no one doubts his commitment. My lot all look at me as if i''m being so thick that I can''t see that "he''s just not that into you".

I just want a ring on my finger that says I''m his, a nice wedding and to get on and start a family. Money is not a problem, there are no job/study/house factors - just his attitude.

I''ll never give an ultimatum as I know he is commited to me and I won''t leave the man I want to marry just over a ceremony, but it makes me feel uncomfortable and a bit unhappy.

I''m not mad and obsessional yet - you guy''s help with that. I even said I was going to post here asking for advice. He laughed and said he''d find out which site and come and post that he had been planning to propose but now I had doubted him he wasn''t going to anymore.

Grrrrrrrr.

So anyone else with this problem? How do you change the mind of someone with all their ducks in a row, but an allergy to a marriage certificate?

By the way, in the UK we tend to get the ring together after the proposal and there is no way he would ever buy a surprise one - he knows it would be going back as I''m way too choosy and he can''t get the wholesale prices I can.

(Sorry, very long venting post - congrats if you''ve got this far!)

 

[always.waiting]

hi, i think if someone does not believe in marriage, there is not much you can do to convince them otherwise. It is a fundamental difference in life goals, and I don''t think it''s to be taken so lightly, like oh,it''s just a piece of paper, I''ll get over it. I think it''s also interesting that you say you''ll never give an ultimatum, but it''s clear at some point this will drive you crazy (it''s only the beginning now), and you''d be surprised what actions you''ll take in order to relieve yourself of that anxiety.
In my case, my bf was not that motivated to be married (some guys are, those are the ones that marry quickly--less than a year of meeting their gf''s), but was open to it if it was important to me. Then he dragged his feet and priortized his timeline over mine. We''ve had to learn to be open and compromise, and yes, I still wait, but I''m in the best position I can be for what it''s worth. For me, it''s something I need, and if he can''t handle it, we are not going to be compatible. Because over time, it would create a rift and resentment.
I think in your case, you need to talk again with your bf, dead seriously. Say this is something you want, maybe not now, but you will need it in order to feel complete. See if this is a dealbreaker for him. Your best bet is to get to the bottom of it now (not crafty hints/tricks/wedding date planning). Otherwise, believe me, the urge for that ''extra commitment" will eat at you, and goign to family reunions and seeing his brother /gf happily betrothed will do damage to your self esteem. It'' s a slow process that you may fight, but it''s bound to happen, because, you DO want to be married.
On another note, it''s interesting that you were proposed to 2x and broke up with your bf''s. How ironic is life!

 

[allycat0303]

Pandora,

I kind of have to agree with always.waiting on this. If it''s not something that he believes in it''s going to be really hard to convince him. I think there is a big difference in a guy that says he''s not "ready" and one that says "I don''t believe in marriage" There are things that I don''t believe and NO ONE is going to convince me of otherwise.

I think you need to figure out how important marriage is to you. If it''s something that you CAN NOT live without, he needs to know that in no uncertain terms, and you may need to move on. I don''t think that "not believing in marriage" is any reflection of you, or the quality of your relationship. I people have different life experiences and then value other things more then others.

Would you be willing to accept a comittement ring? It can have a big diamond etc., and sympolize that you are life partners (Just throwing that out there because I had a friend that recently recieved one). In any case, good luck with your situation!

 

[bee*]

I agree-you really need to sit down with him properly and see is there any way that he is going to change his mind or does he really never see himself getting married. You really need to know now rather than later and than you can decide if its something you can live with forever. You will eventually drive yourself crazy mentioning things to him if you dont know whether he will change his mind or not

 

[Pandora II]

This is the thing, when we met he told me early that he never ever wanted any children. I left it till we knew each other better and then made it very clear that I did and if he had totally made his mind up that he didn''t he needed to let me know as I would leave. He said he wasn''t sure. Six months later he said maybe it could be nice. Last month he said he had decided he did want kids - as it just seemed right with me. Then says, hey you might change my mind on marriage, you never know...

He takes me to look in jewellers windows to look at rings - even goes inside (but only looking, no trying on). I even know his budget for a ring.

It''s driving me mad as I don''t know if he''s just enjoying spinning it out till he proposes, or if he''s just being crap and male. He is never cruel in any way, so he wouldn''t intentionally give me the wrong idea, but I just feel I can''t relax - what if he just thinks it''s nice for me to look at rings, "for your designing".

I feel like I did with one of my ex''s who in 7 years never ever bought me a birthday present. Every year I''d think that this time he would, this time he''d surprise me. And every year the same excuse - no money, although plenty to go out drinking with his friends. I hate that feeling of hope and expectation followed by feeling totally crushed and I''m scared that this is happening again. Totally wrong to assume it as they are very different people, and I feel so bad for thinking it.

This one spoils me rotten and is always springing surprises. I hate surprises...

To be honest if it was a definite no, at least I''d know, whereas here I''m just going nuts!

 

[Maria D]

From what you''ve written, it does sound like his mind toward marriage might change. Maybe or maybe not, but it doesn''t sound like he''s saying *definitely NO* to marriage.

The question is, will you go crazy waiting for him to make up his mind? Part of the problem is you are already living as a married couple and getting along fabulously, as far as he is concerned. What''s the big push to change anything, in his mind.

Here''s why you moved in together:

"my surgeon and physio were in London and so I needed to be there a lot. Also I had the chance to do some voluntary work that would help me get back to a job, and I couldn''t afford my own place as London is so expensive. Above all, it just felt right and it was his decision to ask me."

OK, solid reasons for you at the time and things worked out well for awhile. But why do you continue to live together NOW. Because you own half the house? (not a solid reason for marriage) Because this is how you want to live, "piece of paper" or not? Because you think that by living together eventually he''ll change his mind and want to get married? What would happen if you changed the status quo and moved out. He says he doesn''t believe in marriage, but you can, maybe, convince him. What if you don''t believe in living together for years on end without ever getting married? Can he convince *you*?

I''d move out and see what happens. If you decide you hate it, you can always go back!

 

[RoseAngel04]

Wow. I''d just like to start off by saying I honestly could not be with a man who "Doesn''t believe in marriage." Some view it as "just a piece of paper" but I think those people are the ones who don''t take those precious vows you say seriously. To me marriage isn''t something to be taken lightly....and I can''t speak for England, but here in the US I don''t think most couples getting married realize the serious life long commitment that marriage is.

But, I do think you should talk with your BF seriously about it. By what you have said, it seems like his opinion/thoughts towards marriage could be swayed? You say you wouldn''t give him an ultimatum, so my question to you is what is YOUR breaking point? You have expressed your desire for marriage, but could you live without it? Some can, some can''t...I''m one of those who wouldn''t. But that''s just me.

Good luck, and welcome!

 

[Pandora II]

Thanks for all the replies!

Well, I have had a bit of a talk and have established that he is now "not sure". I'm okay with that - only one of our friends is married so far, and all the others are living with serious partners. Next year both his best friend (female) and his older brother are getting married, so it's going to start featuring in his life. He has lots of girlfriends who are all asking when he's going to propose (no hints from me either) so that will help. My Dad, who has been paying into a wedding account for the last 35 years (3 daughters = poor man) says he's either going to start making comments, or ring him up to offer congratulations. lol

We are both humanists so there is no religious reason to marry. I just want to tell the world that I want to be with this man forever and I want a ring on my finger to show I'm taken. I would also feel uncomfortable having children without a "husband". I really believe in the happily ever after and forever bits. I remember crying when Cindy Crawford and Richard Gere split up - not because of them, but because it just seemed that no-one could be faithful to each other and want to make another person happy except my parents, and I was scared I'd never find that as it seemed so rare.

I wouldn't give an ultimatum as I am so incredibly happy with him in every other way. If he absolutely refuses I will settle for a "commitment ring" - it'll cost him a great deal more than I'll want for an e-ring though

, once I got used to it I'd probably be okay enough to live with it BUT I will never tell him that I will settle for less than the whole works.

RoseAngel, I didn't know how he felt about marriage at the beginning - he was always so keen to see me, move in with me, I just assumed everyone wanted to eventually! Even now, after 18 months living together he still can't wait to see me after work everyday, surprises me with flowers and gifts almost every week. Definitely doesn't act as if he has the "free cow"

Moving out would not be good - first, he would be confused as to why I wanted to make such threats to get a ring/wedding etc when I've always criticized my sister for doing exactly that rather than looking at the man and the relationship they already had. He would see it as forcing him into it and he is almost as stubborn as I am. Secondly, I may own half the house, but that's because I'm paying a mega-mortgage. Obviously if the relationship went bad I would move out - done it before, but this is the one where it's so wonderful I just want to celebrate it with rings and a big party!

Just hoped maybe someone else had conquered their man's fears over the legal aspect. Maybe it IS as rare as I thought

 

[Maria D]

Date: 8/27/2006 1:21:13 PM
Author: Pandora II

Moving out would not be good - first, he would be confused as to why I wanted to make such threats to get a ring/wedding etc when I've always criticized my sister for doing exactly that rather than looking at the man and the relationship they already had. He would see it as forcing him into it and he is almost as stubborn as I am. Secondly, I may own half the house, but that's because I'm paying a mega-mortgage. Obviously if the relationship went bad I would move out - done it before, but this is the one where it's so wonderful I just want to celebrate it with rings and a big party!

Just hoped maybe someone else had conquered their man's fears over the legal aspect. Maybe it IS as rare as I thought

I don't understand how a man who does not "believe" in marriage can view a woman's decision to no longer cohabitate as a "threat" or as being "forced." As I read your and others' stories, I can't help but wonder why it is that the man can have what he wants -- living together without being married -- but if the woman expresses her needs and then does something concrete to show that she's serious, it is seen as manipulative. Why is the man never considered to be manipulative when he continues to live with a woman who wants to be married knowing full well that he is not going to propose anytime soon? Shouldn't we expect real men to take the responsibility of either giving the woman what she's looking for or cutting her loose? I'm speaking in general terms here, not of your particular relationship.

I was just suggesting you try something different. I think it's an excellent idea because it will help *you* figure out whether or not that piece of paper is all that important. It sounds like you're not so sure yourself. Imagine if you found that it didn't really make any difference; that you are in effect "husband and wife" when you live together. Then you could move back in with confidence and not have this nagging feeling that you seem to have. You can't change what he thinks and feels but you *can* figure out where you stand.


>>Just hoped maybe someone else had conquered their man's fears over the legal aspect. <<

It is impossible for anyone to conquer someone else's fears!

 

[Mara]

tough call, i had a pair of friends who were together for 7 years and everyone always asked them, when they were getting married. she said it just wasn't important to them. they didn't have doubt they'd be together and stay together and didn't see a need to get married. it was kind of interesting...but it seemed as though both of them were totally on board with it. it's not as though she didnt want to and he did or whatever, vice versa. i think that is important. i don't think you can have someone who does want it and one who doesn't. long term that doesn't seem to suit, there ends up being bitterness somewhere one would think.

the funny thing is they bought a house together and ended up having 2-3 kids (i can't remember now!!) and got married shortly after the first one. i think it was more a legal thing aka now that they had kids they wanted to be sure if something happened they were covered, i have no idea how it all works or maybe they just wanted the kids to have his last name or something, but she just told a handful of people that they were married, never wore a ring or anything. it was interesting, especially in today's more material world.

but what always really struck me was how the two of them were on the same page about everything. and when they got married, it was so like 'we're married', no biggie, no like WE GOT MARRIED or anything like that. it's just so different and admirable in a way to go against the grain of what everyone else is doing and be like thumbing your nose and showing it really is all about you two.

anyway, my suggestion to you is that you sit down and really figure out what's acceptable to you for your life. is it to spend it with a man you adore but who doesn't believe in marriage. or do you need that marriage to mean something to you. it's okay if you do! but be HONEST with yourself...that's the most important thing. if this is not 'enough' for you, forever, then honestly i don't think you'll just 'change his mind' if he is really against marriage. and you could wait around another 5 or 10 years hoping for that to happen...and getting more and more bitter about the whole thing if you do really want it. if that is the case, i'd sit him down and talk about it. tell him that it's not enough for you to just be the way you are, you need the marriage and if he doesn't agree to at least consider it, or consider WHY he's so against it, then maybe it's not meant to be for the two of you.

bottom line is that both of you should be feeling okay with what your future holds for you both, together. that does not include him saying i dont believe in marriage but i love you and you just going along with it. and it also doesn't include you saying i have to have marriage or else and him just going along with it because he loves you. i think you two have to have a meeting of minds and maybe he needs some therapy to delve into why he has these fears...and maybe work on them a bit and realize you can't shy away from committment based on FEAR. it will then drive you. anyway, good luck!!

 

[Steel]

Hello Pandora II.

Considering you and your intended have accumulated separate financial interests why don’t you both consider a pre-nuptial agreement? It seems that such a document would operate to protect you both financially and serve to protect your boyfriend emotionally.

If you choose to consider this option, pop the query into Google for local information on pre-nups or your solicitor for specific advice.

Best of luck.

 

[firebirdgold]

It sounds like he's wavering some. I'd say give it a bit more time and try not to think ahead too much. My sister always swore she'd never get married. Just wasn't for her.
She met the right guy and started to waffle a bit. then hedge... then just caved into a gooey puddle and is happily married now. Men can take more time though.

Tell him how you just need that commitment. Try compromising and saying you don't need official paperwork, just his ring and maybe a small commitment ceremony. Men truly just don't understand women on this particular subject. Try telling him that you know he doesn't understand but that it's really important to you. I must say, I feel soooo much better with a ring on my hand.

ETA: I'm treated differently too. for example: when I went to rent a car the lady automatically put down my fi as my spouse and therefore able to drive the car without even needing his license! A little thing, but it adds up.

 

[Pandora II]

Thanks ladies for all your thoughts.

Well, looks like there might be progress:

We went away on Saturday with a group of friends - 2 couples (including our only married friends) and 2 halves of other couples. On the train back I was talking to one of my friends who has been with her bf for nearly 3 years. Her bf was my bf's former flatmate, so we know them pretty well. Anyway, she's desperate to get married, is also 36 so wants to get on and have kids too. Turns out they recently split up over his lack of proposal. He said "it's only a piece of paper", she pushed a bit and eventually worked out that he knows exactly what marriage stands for and doesn't feel he wants that level of commitment - although he'd like them to have a baby! She says if she gives an ultimatum he'll probably cave in to stay with her - but she wants him to fell like she does and so is totally miserable about the whole situation.

Later, as we are going home bf asks me what we had been talking about and so I tell him the whole story. Basically he thinks the guy is mad and needs to grow up. That the commitment is the most important bit, he has no problems with committing to me he just thinks that marriage is still geared to a time when the man was the breadwinner and the woman stayed at home and that neither the law or taxation has taken notice of modern day living and that is his only slight problem with marriage. If pre-nups had any legal status in the UK he'd get one tomorrow.

Finally - through talking over someone else's problems we get to his - and it's not insurmountable.

He also said not to advise her to try the "hard-sell you are using on me" as "he is probably serious about not wanting to and will take it really badly..."

Grrrrr men

Thanks for making me look at this more rationally than I had!

I kind of feel there might even be a point in adding me to the LIW list now

 

[Maria D]

>>He also said not to advise her to try the "hard-sell you are using on me" as "he is probably serious about not wanting to and will take it really badly..."
I had to laugh when I read that last line. How badly would he take it? Would he, shudder, break up with her? Oh no! The horror of a boyfriend that doesn't want to commit to you in the first place breaking up with you! What could be worse than that...my god! She may end up, dare I say it, alone.
(I can barely stand to say it out loud, the the thought is so terrifyingly horrible.)

Methinks this attitude is geared to a time where once a woman slept with a man she was used goods and would never again be desired by another man. I thought those days were OVER. Why can't she give him the hard sell and if he doesn't go for it, MOVE ON. What is she, beholden to follow this guy around for the rest of her days, converting her values to his, just because she had a relationship with him? Sorry, if my husband had ever given me this advice (to tell my friend to cool it in these circumstances) the heated argument we'd have would make him sorry he ever came out with that line!

 

[Pandora II]

Maria, I hadn''t thought of it like that - sounds really bad when you put it that way!

I''m pretty sure that what my bf meant was that this guy would just go silent and monosyllabic if she tried to get him to talk about it by using the technique I''m using on him. We also know that this person has a lot of issues psychologically and although he has been in therapy for a long time he can react really strangely. (Like the time he went mad at my bf because he bought a bigger, better TV system for the house. House belonged to my bf, other guy was just renting a room and went totally crazy because my bf didn''t consult him about which model etc he was buying, even though it had nothing to do with him financially. Very odd.)

I also think it was a major slip-up by my bf who was actually saying "Your hard-sell and teasing is working on me because I do intend to marry you, I''m just enjoying the game at the moment - whereas this man is serious about not being commited so she won''t get the reaction you get from me." He kind of confirmed that last night - I asked a few questions as your comments made me wonder if my man-speak translator wasn''t working too good!

He thinks she should have a serious talk with him, rather than ask him what flowers he''d like at the wedding - which is what I do to him (my "hard-sell" is a kind of wedding de-sensitising programme. You know, if you have a phobia of snakes - you start by looking at photos and build up to holding one. Hence my theory: start by looking at jewellery **** and build up to buying a big diamond.

)

We both think SHE could do better, but he''d be a fool to lose her.

 

[Curls]

Pandora,
I just read this entire post today, and I''m waiting to see how it ends. It seems that your questions are slowly getting answered, and it''s going in the right direction. I understand your frustration as far needing something more. My bf hasn''t sworn off the idea of marriage, just hasn''t saved up enough for the ring. Even though I know he wants marriage, I don''t think he gets how important it is to me and how he''s slowly driving me insane watching the sun come up and go down without a ring.

I just wanted to say I''m rooting for you. Keep us updated.

 

[Pandora II]

UPDATE:

Well, we have just got back from 10 days holiday in Italy. During that time we got a message from bf''s ex-flat mate to say he had got engaged (basically the day after I had a talk with his gf.)

I guess my reaction must have been a bit odd (as far as I can see I was a bit pensive for a while - mainly because I was thinking how if she hadn''t talked to me I would not have really guessed the situation and how often that must be the case. I don''t think I felt the envy thing particularly.)

Anyway, bf started saying how he didn''t want me to be so sad and unhappy that we are not engaged and that he felt my left hand was looking a bit lonely.

I pressed for a bit more as I wanted to make sure I was hearing right.

Then he says that he reckons he''ll be looking for a new flatmate if he hasn''t proposed by this time next year, as he thinks I''ll leave. He says we are definitely on the same page but that he also wants to think the proposal through and plan how to do it properly. But it''s now definitely when not if.

(I did suggest that a year was cutting it rather fine

)

 

[~*Alexis*~]

Whooooo!!!!!! YAY! want to be added to the list now?? LOL

 

[Pandora II]

Was tempted to hold on so as to be no.100 - but what the heck. Stick me on the list!

 

[~*Alexis*~]

I added you to the LIW list...*~ I think your number 94 or something....

good luck for a short wait!

 

[Curls]

Yay, you must feel relieved.